Uganda to reinstate death penalty for Homosexuality

[Tarsonis]

They are still part of nature.

Ok? So?

If Hamsters have too many children, they eat them. I guess because that's "natural" humans should also be free to eat their newborns.

According to “Snow Piercer,” babies taste the best

[The New California Republic]

How does it?

It's placing animals, or "nature" as a sort of moral high ground. Something that humans should aspire to be more like.

...no, it isn't doing that at all. It is using them as a point of comparison, it isn't saying they are better or worse than humans, merely that homosexual behaviour occurs in both. In and of itself that isn't imparting any kind of superior/inferior comparison at any point.

[Salus Maior]

It's placing animals, or "nature" as a sort of moral high ground. Something that humans should aspire to be more like.

...no, it isn't doing that at all. It is using them as a point of comparison, it isn't saying they are better or worse than humans, merely that homosexual behaviour occurs in both. In and of itself that isn't imparting any kind of superior/inferior comparison at any point.

You're misunderstanding me.

I'm saying that people who are opposed to homosexuality looking to nature to say that animals don't do that are putting animals on a higher moral ground for some reason.

I'm saying that you are right that it's a meaningless comparison.

[Salus Maior]

I know more straight people who experienced abuse than non-straight people who experienced abuse. Like, many more. To be completely honest, I don't know a single non-hetero person in real life that was abused or had some other trauma in their past (including myself), while I know at least a dozen hetero people who experienced abuse.

Well, we could go into a whole discussion on what we're calling "abuse" and "trauma", but that's not the point of the thread. But this is all anecdotal, like I said.

That being said, people can act out from trauma in a number of different ways.

[The New California Republic]

n my own experience most LGBT people I've met have had serious trauma involving the loss of a parent, or was abused as children by family members in one way or another. I know that's anecdotal, but nearly every LGBT person I've met have had serious childhood trauma in common, so I suspect that psychology can play a role in peoples' sexual preference as they develop.

I'm going to shamelessly counter an anecdote with an anecdote. I have interacted with many LGBT people over the years, including talking about their experiences growing up. I have never found any higher incidence of a history of loss or abuse amongst them in comparison to straight people.

Some much older psychology textbooks (ones from the sixties that I have read) try to take the same line you are taking, trying to argue that there are causes such as trauma or abuse; but such arguments have dropped almost entirely from the psychology scene, mainly because no evidence of such a link was ever found.

[The New California Republic]

...no, it isn't doing that at all. It is using them as a point of comparison, it isn't saying they are better or worse than humans, merely that homosexual behaviour occurs in both. In and of itself that isn't imparting any kind of superior/inferior comparison at any point.

You're misunderstanding me.

I'm saying that people who are opposed to homosexuality looking to nature to say that animals don't do that are putting animals on a higher moral ground for some reason.

I'm saying that you are right that it's a meaningless comparison.

Oh right, OK. Being in the labs all day under artificial lights fries the brain.

[Ifreann]

Well I won't speak for you, but my brain, the thing that does my psychology, is a biological majigger made of meat and goo. At least I think it is, I've never checked.


You're not opposed to factual evidence, but you've got some bullshit you made up yourself that you know is worthless but want to be taken seriously regardless.

Cool.

Psychology is how one mentally develops and its not fixed, as opposed to what we're calling "biological" which is genetic determinism. Come on, you're smarter than that, you have to know what psychology is.

I do, so I know that saying "It's not biological, it's psychological" is essentially saying "It's not biological, it's [this specific kind of biological]".

I didn't make up the fact that they have had childhood trauma in common, that's my observation and considering I said it was anecdotal people can take it or leave it on that basis. Although I think it's far from bullshit to consider that psychology plays a role in peoples' developing preferences.

What I'm calling bullshit is your idea that trauma makes people LGBT.

Honestly, you're getting way too offended for what I'm actually musing, you realize I'm not criticizing anyone by saying this, let alone you personally?

What you're proposing is that being LGBT is a form of psychological damage, the result of trauma. You can framing it as "musing" or whatever the fuck else you want, it's homophobic, biphobic, transphobic bullshit, and I'm not going to expend any energy pretending otherwise.

[Salus Maior]

n my own experience most LGBT people I've met have had serious trauma involving the loss of a parent, or was abused as children by family members in one way or another. I know that's anecdotal, but nearly every LGBT person I've met have had serious childhood trauma in common, so I suspect that psychology can play a role in peoples' sexual preference as they develop.

I'm going to shamelessly counter an anecdote with an anecdote. I have interacted with many LGBT people over the years, including talking about their experiences growing up. I have never found any higher incidence of a history of loss or abuse amongst them in comparison to straight people.

Some much older psychology textbooks (ones from the sixties that I have read) try to take the same line you are taking, trying to argue that there are causes such as trauma or abuse; but such arguments have dropped almost entirely from the psychology scene, mainly because no evidence of such a link was ever found.

For the record, it doesn't really matter to me the causes of homosexuality. So my observation isn't based on a hope that psychology is the cause, and like I said I think it's probable that genetics plays a role.

That being said, homosexuality doesn't really matter to me outside of its interaction with the Church and in the Church.

[Salus Maior]

You're misunderstanding me.

I'm saying that people who are opposed to homosexuality looking to nature to say that animals don't do that are putting animals on a higher moral ground for some reason.

I'm saying that you are right that it's a meaningless comparison.

Oh right, OK. Being in the labs all day under artificial lights fries the brain.

No worries, broseph. I've been there.

[Salus Maior]

What I'm calling bullshit is your idea that trauma makes people LGBT.

What you're proposing is that being LGBT is a form of psychological damage, the result of trauma. You can framing it as "musing" or whatever the fuck else you want, it's homophobic, biphobic, transphobic bullshit, and I'm not going to expend any energy pretending otherwise.

My observation is that psychology can play a role in peoples' choices as they develop, this is common sense. So why is sexual preference off limits? And I'm not saying it's the only way that LGBT's can develop.

Lots of things can be a result of trauma or other psychological development. Trauma that turns into guilt can make people be more charitable, or become philanthropists for example. It's up to you to interpret a development as positive, negative, or neutral. And despite declaring that you're "not going to expend energy", you've decided to spend it chewing me out on a neutral statement, because you're interpreting homosexuality as a negative development, if it were psychologically developed in some cases.

So perhaps I should ask you, if homosexuality were psychologically developed as opposed to genetically, would that make it less valid a choice in your view? Because you're acting like it is.

[Linux and the X]

Why the King James version?

Mainly for pragmatic reasons (it was the version that was easiest to get off the shelf at the time ).

There are quite a few English translations available online. I'm a fan of Young's Literal Translation, personally; it just sounds more Biblical.

[The New California Republic]

Mainly for pragmatic reasons (it was the version that was easiest to get off the shelf at the time ).

There are quite a few English translations available online. I'm a fan of Young's Literal Translation, personally; it just sounds more Biblical.

Yeah I know, I just prefer books across the board as they are more tactile in terms of flicking through and finding specific parts from memory.

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

They are still part of nature.

Ok? So?

If Hamsters have too many children, they eat them. I guess because that's "natural" humans should also be free to eat their newborns.

Difference being is that is abhorrent for ending life, the other one is not harming anyone.

[Telconi]

Ok? So?

If Hamsters have too many children, they eat them. I guess because that's "natural" humans should also be free to eat their newborns.

Difference being is that is abhorrent for ending life, the other one is not harming anyone.

Ending life is a part of nature...

[Ifreann]

What I'm calling bullshit is your idea that trauma makes people LGBT.

What you're proposing is that being LGBT is a form of psychological damage, the result of trauma. You can framing it as "musing" or whatever the fuck else you want, it's homophobic, biphobic, transphobic bullshit, and I'm not going to expend any energy pretending otherwise.

My observation is that psychology can play a role in peoples' choices as they develop, this is common sense. So why is sexual preference off limits? And I'm not saying it's the only way that LGBT's can develop.

You're just saying that in your experience that's how it works 100% of the time, and presenting that as a valid hypothesis that should be considered. It's something akin to "Just asking questions". Feigning neutrality and civility to espouse noxious ideas.

Lots of things can be a result of trauma or other psychological development. Trauma that turns into guilt can make people be more charitable, or become philanthropists for example. It's up to you to interpret a development as positive, negative, or neutral. And despite declaring that you're "not going to expend energy", you've decided to spend it chewing me out on a neutral statement, because you're interpreting homosexuality as a negative development, if it were psychologically developed in some cases.

I said that I'm not going to expend energy pretending that this is anything other than bigotry on your part. And I'm not. I'm going to address your bigotry for the bigotry it is.

And of course, this is part of it. I recognise your shit for what it is and you clutch your pearls in dismay that I am so offended. A performance Ben Shapiro would proud of.

So perhaps I should ask you, if homosexuality were psychologically developed as opposed to genetically, would that make it less valid a choice in your view? Because you're acting like it is.

You're saying that a person's gender and sexuality are a choice? Tut tut, overplaying your hand.

[New haven america]

They are still part of nature.

Ok? So?

If Hamsters have too many children, they eat them. I guess because that's "natural" humans should also be free to eat their newborns.

There are quite a few cannibalistic cultures that don't care about things like that, and in fact, they find it weird that there are humans that don't eat each other.

[Salus Maior]

You're just saying that in your experience that's how it works 100% of the time, and presenting that as a valid hypothesis that should be considered. It's something akin to "Just asking questions". Feigning neutrality and civility to espouse noxious ideas.

I said that I'm not going to expend energy pretending that this is anything other than bigotry on your part. And I'm not. I'm going to address your bigotry for the bigotry it is.

And of course, this is part of it. I recognise your shit for what it is and you clutch your pearls in dismay that I am so offended. A performance Ben Shapiro would proud of.

You're saying that a person's gender and sexuality are a choice? Tut tut, overplaying your hand.

Then you haven't been reading what I'm saying. I'm saying I suspect that psychology can play a role, I fully admitted that there are other factors like genetics multiple times in this thread.

You're seeing hostility that isn't there. I'm not trying to win any arguments, I'm stating something from my own experience that I observed. But if you want to play triumphant hero over a perceived homophobe, sure, go ahead. You're obviously eager.

I'm not saying it's as simple as that, I'm saying that it's possible that it's not some kind of fixed thing. And besides, if homosexuality were a choice (which I'm not saying is always the case), would that make a difference for you? Shouldn't you be saying if someone chose that way to be happy, they should be free to make that choice?

[Ifreann]

You're just saying that in your experience that's how it works 100% of the time, and presenting that as a valid hypothesis that should be considered. It's something akin to "Just asking questions". Feigning neutrality and civility to espouse noxious ideas.

I said that I'm not going to expend energy pretending that this is anything other than bigotry on your part. And I'm not. I'm going to address your bigotry for the bigotry it is.

And of course, this is part of it. I recognise your shit for what it is and you clutch your pearls in dismay that I am so offended. A performance Ben Shapiro would proud of.

You're saying that a person's gender and sexuality are a choice? Tut tut, overplaying your hand.

Then you haven't been reading what I'm saying. I'm saying I suspect that psychology can play a role, I fully admitted that there are other factors like genetics multiple times in this thread.

You're not saying it's aliens, you're just saying that in every case you're familiar with it was aliens and hey, maybe sometimes it's not aliens.

You're saying it's aliens.

You're seeing hostility that isn't there. I'm not trying to win any arguments, I'm stating something from my own experience that I observed. But if you want to play triumphant hero over a perceived homophobe, sure, go ahead. You're obviously eager.

First you say I'm offended, then you try to suggest that I'm a homophobe, now you try to suggest that I'm trying to play the hero.

I'm not saying it's as simple as that, I'm saying that it's possible that it's not some kind of fixed thing. And besides, if homosexuality were a choice (which I'm not saying is always the case), would that make a difference for you? Shouldn't you be saying if someone chose that way to be happy, they should be free to make that choice?

So you are, indeed, saying that homosexuality is a choice, but you're fudging it by saying it's only sometimes a choice.

[New haven america]

You're just saying that in your experience that's how it works 100% of the time, and presenting that as a valid hypothesis that should be considered. It's something akin to "Just asking questions". Feigning neutrality and civility to espouse noxious ideas.

I said that I'm not going to expend energy pretending that this is anything other than bigotry on your part. And I'm not. I'm going to address your bigotry for the bigotry it is.

And of course, this is part of it. I recognise your shit for what it is and you clutch your pearls in dismay that I am so offended. A performance Ben Shapiro would proud of.

You're saying that a person's gender and sexuality are a choice? Tut tut, overplaying your hand.

Then you haven't been reading what I'm saying. I'm saying I suspect that psychology can play a role, I fully admitted that there are other factors like genetics multiple times in this thread.

You're seeing hostility that isn't there. I'm not trying to win any arguments, I'm stating something from my own experience that I observed. But if you want to play triumphant hero over a perceived homophobe, sure, go ahead. You're obviously eager.

I'm not saying it's as simple as that, I'm saying that it's possible that it's not some kind of fixed thing. And besides, if homosexuality were a choice (which I'm not saying is always the case), would that make a difference for you? Shouldn't you be saying if someone chose that way to be happy, they should be free to make that choice?

Oh my God, just admit you think homosexuality's a choice and move on to the next discussion point please.

[New haven america]

Then you haven't been reading what I'm saying. I'm saying I suspect that psychology can play a role, I fully admitted that there are other factors like genetics multiple times in this thread.

You're not saying it's aliens, you're just saying that in every case you're familiar with it was aliens and hey, maybe sometimes it's not aliens.

You're saying it's aliens.

You're seeing hostility that isn't there. I'm not trying to win any arguments, I'm stating something from my own experience that I observed. But if you want to play triumphant hero over a perceived homophobe, sure, go ahead. You're obviously eager.

First you say I'm offended, then you try to suggest that I'm a homophobe, now you try to suggest that I'm trying to play the hero.

I'm not saying it's as simple as that, I'm saying that it's possible that it's not some kind of fixed thing. And besides, if homosexuality were a choice (which I'm not saying is always the case), would that make a difference for you? Shouldn't you be saying if someone chose that way to be happy, they should be free to make that choice?

So you are, indeed, saying that homosexuality is a choice, but you're fudging it by saying it's only sometimes a choice.

And why would homosexuality be a choice?

Like, in most of the world being homosexual=Life in prison with no chance of parole or death. So why would people choose to do so when they have the ability not to? And this isn't like heinous acts like murder or anything, these is just 2 or more people expression love and affection (Oh wait, I forgot, sex and biology is worse than murder, my bad).

[Salus Maior]

Then you haven't been reading what I'm saying. I'm saying I suspect that psychology can play a role, I fully admitted that there are other factors like genetics multiple times in this thread.

You're not saying it's aliens, you're just saying that in every case you're familiar with it was aliens and hey, maybe sometimes it's not aliens.

You're saying it's aliens.

You're seeing hostility that isn't there. I'm not trying to win any arguments, I'm stating something from my own experience that I observed. But if you want to play triumphant hero over a perceived homophobe, sure, go ahead. You're obviously eager.

First you say I'm offended, then you try to suggest that I'm a homophobe, now you try to suggest that I'm trying to play the hero.

I'm not saying it's as simple as that, I'm saying that it's possible that it's not some kind of fixed thing. And besides, if homosexuality were a choice (which I'm not saying is always the case), would that make a difference for you? Shouldn't you be saying if someone chose that way to be happy, they should be free to make that choice?

So you are, indeed, saying that homosexuality is a choice, but you're fudging it by saying it's only sometimes a choice.

I'm saying there's a lot of factors that can go into sexual preference, and that there may be multiple ways that people can reach the same preference. Whether that is by psychology, genetics, or if I guess some people just chose it because they felt happier that way. It's not impossible.

I wasn't suggesting you were a homophobe, what I'm trying to get at is that if it were a choice for some people, would it be invalid for them to be happy that way? Do they have to be genetically conditioned to find happiness in that way? Yes or no?

If I believed it were a choice, would that matter to the happiness of people who chose that lifestyle?

[Ifreann]

You're not saying it's aliens, you're just saying that in every case you're familiar with it was aliens and hey, maybe sometimes it's not aliens.

You're saying it's aliens.


First you say I'm offended, then you try to suggest that I'm a homophobe, now you try to suggest that I'm trying to play the hero.


So you are, indeed, saying that homosexuality is a choice, but you're fudging it by saying it's only sometimes a choice.

I'm saying there's a lot of factors that can go into sexual preference, and that there may be multiple ways that people can reach the same preference. Whether that is by psychology, genetics, or if I guess some people just chose it because they felt happier that way. It's not impossible.

All framed in terms of "Well every LGBT person I know suffered trauma". I don't think you said that for no reason.

I wasn't suggesting you were a homophobe, what I'm trying to get at is that if it were a choice for some people, would it be invalid for them to be happy that way? Do they have to be genetically conditioned to find happiness in that way? Yes or no?

You were suggesting that I'm a homophobe, because you framed your question as if I had said that being gay is a bad thing.

If I believed it were a choice, would that matter to the happiness of people who chose that lifestyle?

You do believe it's a choice. You've said as much. Later saying "Uh, I mean the lifestyle", as if there is such a thing as an LGBT lifestyle, is a weak attempt at ass covering.

[Salus Maior]

All framed in terms of "Well every LGBT person I know suffered trauma". I don't think you said that for no reason.

You were suggesting that I'm a homophobe, because you framed your question as if I had said that being gay is a bad thing.

You do believe it's a choice. You've said as much. Later saying "Uh, I mean the lifestyle", as if there is such a thing as an LGBT lifestyle, is a weak attempt at ass covering.

Yes, I said it for the reason that in my case it's true that these people I know have that in common, simply. That is something I've observed.
However, that is a slim number of the LGBT population so I think it's clear that it's not an authoritative statement on the homosexual population as a whole.

You're the one who interpreted from my statement that LGBT people were essentially broken if they developed their preference from trauma, here:

What I'm calling bullshit is your idea that trauma makes people LGBT.

What you're proposing is that being LGBT is a form of psychological damage, the result of trauma.

Now, if there's nothing wrong with being LGBT, why would it be damage if they became that way from trauma? I didn't make that connection, you did. And note what I said in response, that things that develop from trauma are not always bad things.

Lots of things can be a result of trauma or other psychological development. Trauma that turns into guilt can make people be more charitable, or become philanthropists for example. It's up to you to interpret a development as positive, negative, or neutral. And despite declaring that you're "not going to expend energy", you've decided to spend it chewing me out on a neutral statement, because you're interpreting homosexuality as a negative development, if it were psychologically developed in some cases.

You chose to interpret it as negative, when you could have said that it wasn't a negative development if it were the case. Which implies you don't believe that being LGBT is a desirable condition. So maybe you can just answer my question about what's wrong with a homosexual if they didn't get that way through genetic determinism, which I think in some cases but not all, maybe not even the majority may not be the case. And you can stop dodging the question, because I'm not going to say what you want me to say, because I don't believe that homosexuality is merely a choice, that's way too simplistic. I just don't believe it's always because of genetic determinism, and that there may be multiple paths to the same destination. That's the simplest I'll put it and you can take that or leave it.

[Lamoni]

Did you read your own study? Because yeah, no single gene. No shit. Fucking poodle fur color is controlled by 7 genes, did you expect sexuality to be done by one.
It does say that it’s a mixture of genetic and environmental factors, however.

IMAGE REDACTED BY MODERATION

Maqkaradj:

*** Warning for Spam ***

[Maqkaradj]

Why the King James version?

Mainly for pragmatic reasons (it was the version that was easiest to get off the shelf at the time ).

It may be the easiest to get off the shelf, but allah knows it is the Aramaic bible that is in your heart