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Turkish military offensive in Syria/Rojava

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Which side you're sympathic towards?

Turkey
48
13%
Rojava/SDF
242
63%
Neither or unsure
92
24%
 
Total votes : 382

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Agarntrop
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Posts: 1442
Founded: May 14, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Agarntrop » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:01 pm

Nea Byzantia wrote:
Vistulange wrote:Being Greek does not necessitate that you not be a fan of Turkey.

Sure it does. Turkey used us, abused us, enslaved us, and tried to make us all Muslim and Turkish for 400 years (during the Ottoman times); then genocided us and kicked the Asia Minor Greeks out of their ancestral homelands (1913 - 1923). On top of it, Turkey has refused to acknowledge these historic abuses. Not only this, but Turkey is still pressing on our borders; and pressing on the borders of our brothers in Cyprus.

This doesn't mean I hate all individual Turks; I just have beef with Turkey.

They still commit genocide against the Kurds to this day, though.
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Wallenburg
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Founded: Jan 30, 2015
New York Times Democracy

Postby Wallenburg » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:03 pm

Agarntrop wrote:
Nea Byzantia wrote:Sure it does. Turkey used us, abused us, enslaved us, and tried to make us all Muslim and Turkish for 400 years (during the Ottoman times); then genocided us and kicked the Asia Minor Greeks out of their ancestral homelands (1913 - 1923). On top of it, Turkey has refused to acknowledge these historic abuses. Not only this, but Turkey is still pressing on our borders; and pressing on the borders of our brothers in Cyprus.

This doesn't mean I hate all individual Turks; I just have beef with Turkey.

They still commit genocide against the Kurds to this day, though.

And this invasion marks the beginning of the latest round of genocide.
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Vistulange
Minister
 
Posts: 3162
Founded: May 13, 2012
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Vistulange » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:03 pm

Nea Byzantia wrote:
Vistulange wrote:Being Greek does not necessitate that you not be a fan of Turkey.

Sure it does. Turkey used us, abused us, enslaved us, and tried to make us all Muslim and Turkish for 400 years (during the Ottoman times); then genocided us and kicked the Asia Minor Greeks out of their ancestral homelands (1913 - 1923). On top of it, Turkey has refused to acknowledge these historic abuses. Not only this, but Turkey is still pressing on our borders; and pressing on the borders of our brothers in Cyprus.

This doesn't mean I hate all individual Turks; I just have beef with Turkey.

There is so much wrong with this paragraph that I literally have no idea what literature to look at first, and which parts to look at. But I remember you, we've interacted before. Perhaps it is better that I do not even try to show you anything remotely scientific and academically accepted.
Turkish-Canadian, self-identified social democrat and "Neo-Kemalist", aspiring academician. Interested in nuclear proliferation, Turkish foreign policy, democratisation, and nation-building. Open to telegrams on all topics, feel free to ask me anything.

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Agarntrop
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Founded: May 14, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Agarntrop » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:03 pm

Wallenburg wrote:
Agarntrop wrote:They still commit genocide against the Kurds to this day, though.

And this invasion marks the beginning of the latest round of genocide.

Indeed. Erdogan is a terrorist and a war criminal.
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Nea Byzantia
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Posts: 4808
Founded: Jun 03, 2016
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Nea Byzantia » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:04 pm

Vistulange wrote:
Nea Byzantia wrote:Sure it does. Turkey used us, abused us, enslaved us, and tried to make us all Muslim and Turkish for 400 years (during the Ottoman times); then genocided us and kicked the Asia Minor Greeks out of their ancestral homelands (1913 - 1923). On top of it, Turkey has refused to acknowledge these historic abuses. Not only this, but Turkey is still pressing on our borders; and pressing on the borders of our brothers in Cyprus.

This doesn't mean I hate all individual Turks; I just have beef with Turkey.

There is so much wrong with this paragraph that I literally have no idea what literature to look at first, and which parts to look at. But I remember you, we've interacted before. Perhaps it is better that I do not even try to show you anything remotely scientific and academically accepted.

No, please do. I'm curious.

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Wallenburg
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Posts: 20335
Founded: Jan 30, 2015
New York Times Democracy

Postby Wallenburg » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:05 pm

Vistulange wrote:
Nea Byzantia wrote:Sure it does. Turkey used us, abused us, enslaved us, and tried to make us all Muslim and Turkish for 400 years (during the Ottoman times); then genocided us and kicked the Asia Minor Greeks out of their ancestral homelands (1913 - 1923). On top of it, Turkey has refused to acknowledge these historic abuses. Not only this, but Turkey is still pressing on our borders; and pressing on the borders of our brothers in Cyprus.

This doesn't mean I hate all individual Turks; I just have beef with Turkey.

There is so much wrong with this paragraph that I literally have no idea what literature to look at first, and which parts to look at. But I remember you, we've interacted before. Perhaps it is better that I do not even try to show you anything remotely scientific and academically accepted.

If you're going to deny the genocide of Anatolian Greeks, I'm curious what you have to say about Armenians.
PROFESSIONAL CRITIC OF ALL THINGS GENSEC
There never has been, nor will there ever be, such thing as a wallenburger.
grestin went through the MKULTRA program and he has more of a free will than wallenburg does - Imperial Idaho
PRO: GOOD || ANTI: BAD
Minister of World Assembly Affairs for The East Pacific

User avatar
Vistulange
Minister
 
Posts: 3162
Founded: May 13, 2012
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Vistulange » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:05 pm

Nea Byzantia wrote:
Vistulange wrote:There is so much wrong with this paragraph that I literally have no idea what literature to look at first, and which parts to look at. But I remember you, we've interacted before. Perhaps it is better that I do not even try to show you anything remotely scientific and academically accepted.

No, please do. I'm curious.

No, I'm afraid I won't be falling into the bait. From past experience, I simply don't believe you are posting in good faith in any sort of way. Have fun with your anti-Turkish circlejerk, though, it must be very fulfilling.
Turkish-Canadian, self-identified social democrat and "Neo-Kemalist", aspiring academician. Interested in nuclear proliferation, Turkish foreign policy, democratisation, and nation-building. Open to telegrams on all topics, feel free to ask me anything.

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Nea Byzantia
Senator
 
Posts: 4808
Founded: Jun 03, 2016
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Nea Byzantia » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:06 pm

Vistulange wrote:
Nea Byzantia wrote:No, please do. I'm curious.

No, I'm afraid I won't be falling into the bait. From past experience, I simply don't believe you are posting in good faith in any sort of way. Have fun with your anti-Turkish circlejerk, though, it must be very fulfilling.

But wait, you're calling me out as a liar and historical revisionist, and now when people are demanding the goods, you back away?

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Vistulange
Minister
 
Posts: 3162
Founded: May 13, 2012
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Vistulange » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:06 pm

Wallenburg wrote:
Vistulange wrote:There is so much wrong with this paragraph that I literally have no idea what literature to look at first, and which parts to look at. But I remember you, we've interacted before. Perhaps it is better that I do not even try to show you anything remotely scientific and academically accepted.

If you're going to deny the genocide of Anatolian Greeks, I'm curious what you have to say about Armenians.

We call this "strawmanning". I don't recall ever saying "Anatolian Greeks were not subjected to ethnic cleansing", Wallenburg. Again:

Vistulange wrote:No, I'm afraid I won't be falling into the bait. From past experience, I simply don't believe you are posting in good faith in any sort of way. Have fun with your anti-Turkish circlejerk, though, it must be very fulfilling.
Turkish-Canadian, self-identified social democrat and "Neo-Kemalist", aspiring academician. Interested in nuclear proliferation, Turkish foreign policy, democratisation, and nation-building. Open to telegrams on all topics, feel free to ask me anything.

User avatar
Vistulange
Minister
 
Posts: 3162
Founded: May 13, 2012
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Vistulange » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:07 pm

Nea Byzantia wrote:
Vistulange wrote:No, I'm afraid I won't be falling into the bait. From past experience, I simply don't believe you are posting in good faith in any sort of way. Have fun with your anti-Turkish circlejerk, though, it must be very fulfilling.

But wait, you're calling me out as a liar and historical revisionist, and now when people are demanding the goods, you back away?

Yes, sue me, Nea Bzyantia.
Turkish-Canadian, self-identified social democrat and "Neo-Kemalist", aspiring academician. Interested in nuclear proliferation, Turkish foreign policy, democratisation, and nation-building. Open to telegrams on all topics, feel free to ask me anything.

User avatar
Agarntrop
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1442
Founded: May 14, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Agarntrop » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:07 pm

Wallenburg wrote:
Vistulange wrote:There is so much wrong with this paragraph that I literally have no idea what literature to look at first, and which parts to look at. But I remember you, we've interacted before. Perhaps it is better that I do not even try to show you anything remotely scientific and academically accepted.

If you're going to deny the genocide of Anatolian Greeks, I'm curious what you have to say about Armenians.

"leukaemia leukaemia there was no genocide in armenia"
- Vistulange, 2019
Last edited by Agarntrop on Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Pro and Anti, Etc.
Mirror Mirror on the wall, who's the Goddest Mod of them all?
Free Rojava!
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Vistulange
Minister
 
Posts: 3162
Founded: May 13, 2012
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Vistulange » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:08 pm

Agarntrop wrote:
Wallenburg wrote:If you're going to deny the genocide of Anatolian Greeks, I'm curious what you have to say about Armenians.

"leukaemia leukaemia there was no genocide in armenia"
- Vistulange, 2019

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

It's kind of funny when you lot literally lose one of the very few Turks on this entire forum that actually acknowledges the Armenian Genocide happened, guys.
Last edited by Vistulange on Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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New Bremerton
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Posts: 460
Founded: Jul 20, 2018
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby New Bremerton » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:09 pm

Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana wrote:
Wallenburg wrote:So many claims, but no sauce to go with it.

Are you not aware one Rojava’s treatment of its native Arabs? Or PKK terrorism in Turkey?


If you're referring to Amnesty International's report from a few years ago, the Kurds are entitled to lay claim to territory it has acquired in a war of self-defense, just like Israel did in 1967. The Arabs can throw a tantrum and receive absolutely nothing, or they can sit down and negotiate with Rojava. It is not a war crime to ensure that your country's borders are secure and defensible. Support for the Kurds transcends the political spectrum and includes many conservatives and Republicans dismayed at Trump's decision to pull out. Rojava's human rights record is far more exemplary than that of ISIS, the Assad regime and Turkey, and rivaled in the Middle East only by Israel, which is the only country to declare its support for Kurdish independence. The Kurds are also known to be far more secular and tolerant than their Arab and Turkish neighbors next door. They have women fighting in the YPG among other things. I also don't see why the PKK in Turkey should be designated as terrorists when Kurdish rebel groups in Syria, Iraq and Iran are not. The only reason for this is because of Turkey's membership in NATO as an "ally" of America and Europe. This is a hypocritical Western double standard.

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Agarntrop
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Founded: May 14, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Agarntrop » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:11 pm

New Bremerton wrote:
Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana wrote:Are you not aware one Rojava’s treatment of its native Arabs? Or PKK terrorism in Turkey?


If you're referring to Amnesty International's report from a few years ago, the Kurds are entitled to lay claim to territory it has acquired in a war of self-defense, just like Israel did in 1967. The Arabs can throw a tantrum and receive absolutely nothing, or they can sit down and negotiate with Rojava. It is not a war crime to ensure that your country's borders are secure and defensible. Support for the Kurds transcends the political spectrum and includes many conservatives and Republicans dismayed at Trump's decision to pull out. Rojava's human rights record is far more exemplary than that of ISIS, the Assad regime and Turkey, and rivaled in the Middle East only by Israel, which is the only country to declare its support for Kurdish independence. The Kurds are also known to be far more secular and tolerant than their Arab and Turkish neighbors next door. They have women fighting in the YPG among other things. I also don't see why the PKK in Turkey should be designated as terrorists when Kurdish rebel groups in Syria, Iraq and Iran are not. The only reason for this is because of Turkey's membership in NATO as an "ally" of America and Europe. This is a hypocritical Western double standard.

Turkey should be given 72 hours to stop attacks on the SDF or the West should cease co-operating with their military and intelligence services.
End Child Marriage In the U.S. #18NoExceptions
Pro and Anti, Etc.
Mirror Mirror on the wall, who's the Goddest Mod of them all?
Free Rojava!
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Nea Byzantia
Senator
 
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Founded: Jun 03, 2016
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Nea Byzantia » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:11 pm

Vistulange wrote:
Nea Byzantia wrote:But wait, you're calling me out as a liar and historical revisionist, and now when people are demanding the goods, you back away?

Yes, sue me, Nea Bzyantia.

So you're running away from this discussion.

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Vistulange
Minister
 
Posts: 3162
Founded: May 13, 2012
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Vistulange » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:12 pm

Nea Byzantia wrote:
Vistulange wrote:Yes, sue me, Nea Bzyantia.

So you're running away from this discussion.

Yes, again, please sue me. I've interacted enough with you in the past to know what your idea of "discussion" is.
Turkish-Canadian, self-identified social democrat and "Neo-Kemalist", aspiring academician. Interested in nuclear proliferation, Turkish foreign policy, democratisation, and nation-building. Open to telegrams on all topics, feel free to ask me anything.

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New Bremerton
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 460
Founded: Jul 20, 2018
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby New Bremerton » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:13 pm

Agarntrop wrote:
New Bremerton wrote:
If you're referring to Amnesty International's report from a few years ago, the Kurds are entitled to lay claim to territory it has acquired in a war of self-defense, just like Israel did in 1967. The Arabs can throw a tantrum and receive absolutely nothing, or they can sit down and negotiate with Rojava. It is not a war crime to ensure that your country's borders are secure and defensible. Support for the Kurds transcends the political spectrum and includes many conservatives and Republicans dismayed at Trump's decision to pull out. Rojava's human rights record is far more exemplary than that of ISIS, the Assad regime and Turkey, and rivaled in the Middle East only by Israel, which is the only country to declare its support for Kurdish independence. The Kurds are also known to be far more secular and tolerant than their Arab and Turkish neighbors next door. They have women fighting in the YPG among other things. I also don't see why the PKK in Turkey should be designated as terrorists when Kurdish rebel groups in Syria, Iraq and Iran are not. The only reason for this is because of Turkey's membership in NATO as an "ally" of America and Europe. This is a hypocritical Western double standard.

Turkey should be given 72 hours to stop attacks on the SDF or the West should cease co-operating with their military and intelligence services.


Expel them from NATO and stop calling them "allies", which they clearly are not.

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Vistulange
Minister
 
Posts: 3162
Founded: May 13, 2012
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Vistulange » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:13 pm

New Bremerton wrote:
Agarntrop wrote:Turkey should be given 72 hours to stop attacks on the SDF or the West should cease co-operating with their military and intelligence services.


Expel them from NATO and stop calling them "allies", which they clearly are not.

NATO has no member removal mechanism.
Turkish-Canadian, self-identified social democrat and "Neo-Kemalist", aspiring academician. Interested in nuclear proliferation, Turkish foreign policy, democratisation, and nation-building. Open to telegrams on all topics, feel free to ask me anything.

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Wallenburg
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New York Times Democracy

Postby Wallenburg » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:14 pm

Vistulange wrote:
Wallenburg wrote:If you're going to deny the genocide of Anatolian Greeks, I'm curious what you have to say about Armenians.

We call this "strawmanning". I don't recall ever saying "Anatolian Greeks were not subjected to ethnic cleansing", Wallenburg. Again:

Vistulange wrote:No, I'm afraid I won't be falling into the bait. From past experience, I simply don't believe you are posting in good faith in any sort of way. Have fun with your anti-Turkish circlejerk, though, it must be very fulfilling.

When you say "There is so much wrong with this paragraph that I literally have no idea what literature to look at first, and which parts to look at," that usually means that you disagree with all that has been said in the post you quoted. If you don't deny the Turkish genocide of Greeks, then what part of that post do you disagree with?
PROFESSIONAL CRITIC OF ALL THINGS GENSEC
There never has been, nor will there ever be, such thing as a wallenburger.
grestin went through the MKULTRA program and he has more of a free will than wallenburg does - Imperial Idaho
PRO: GOOD || ANTI: BAD
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Agarntrop
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Founded: May 14, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Agarntrop » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:14 pm

Nea Byzantia wrote:
Vistulange wrote:Yes, sue me, Nea Bzyantia.

So you're running away from this discussion.

Nea Byzantia = Alex Jones.
Vistulange = Guy he's chasing

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Yj5ec0pS1XI
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Agarntrop
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1442
Founded: May 14, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Agarntrop » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:15 pm

Vistulange wrote:
New Bremerton wrote:
Expel them from NATO and stop calling them "allies", which they clearly are not.

NATO has no member removal mechanism.

We should just cease most of our co-operation with them.
End Child Marriage In the U.S. #18NoExceptions
Pro and Anti, Etc.
Mirror Mirror on the wall, who's the Goddest Mod of them all?
Free Rojava!
♂️♀️♐ Copy and paste this into your sig if you passed biology and neither know or care how many genders there are. ♂️♀️♐
[| LAND OF THE FREE ||AMERICAN||POLITICAL|| RP || IS || UP! | - JOIN NOW!
My country's home Secretary wrote:The future of curry in this country is at risk because of membership of the European Union

User avatar
Vistulange
Minister
 
Posts: 3162
Founded: May 13, 2012
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Vistulange » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:15 pm

Wallenburg wrote:
Vistulange wrote:We call this "strawmanning". I don't recall ever saying "Anatolian Greeks were not subjected to ethnic cleansing", Wallenburg. Again:


When you say "There is so much wrong with this paragraph that I literally have no idea what literature to look at first, and which parts to look at," that usually means that you disagree with all that has been said in the post you quoted. If you don't deny the Turkish genocide of Greeks, then what part of that post do you disagree with?

Overall, the entire anachronism and the fitting of 19th and 20th century conceptualisations into "holes" which are from the 14th and 15th centuries. Not the history, i.e. the events that happened in his account, but the framing and the contextualisation of the history at hand which belies his overall approach to the "debate".
Last edited by Vistulange on Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Turkish-Canadian, self-identified social democrat and "Neo-Kemalist", aspiring academician. Interested in nuclear proliferation, Turkish foreign policy, democratisation, and nation-building. Open to telegrams on all topics, feel free to ask me anything.

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Wallenburg
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 20335
Founded: Jan 30, 2015
New York Times Democracy

Postby Wallenburg » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:17 pm

Vistulange wrote:
Wallenburg wrote:When you say "There is so much wrong with this paragraph that I literally have no idea what literature to look at first, and which parts to look at," that usually means that you disagree with all that has been said in the post you quoted. If you don't deny the Turkish genocide of Greeks, then what part of that post do you disagree with?

Overall, the entire anachronism and the fitting of 19th and 20th century conceptualisations into "holes" which are from the 14th and 15th centuries. Not the history, i.e. the events that happened in his account, but the framing and the contextualisation of the history at hand which belies his overall approach to the "debate".

Ethnic cleansing and slavery are hardly modern concepts. They've been pretty well understood for millennia. It's just become widely considered immoral in the last few centuries.
Last edited by Wallenburg on Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
PROFESSIONAL CRITIC OF ALL THINGS GENSEC
There never has been, nor will there ever be, such thing as a wallenburger.
grestin went through the MKULTRA program and he has more of a free will than wallenburg does - Imperial Idaho
PRO: GOOD || ANTI: BAD
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Page
Postmaster-General
 
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Founded: Jan 12, 2012
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Page » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:17 pm

Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana wrote:
Wallenburg wrote:So many claims, but no sauce to go with it.

Are you not aware one Rojava’s treatment of its native Arabs? Or PKK terrorism in Turkey?


The PKK is a natural reaction to long and severe oppression.
I am a libertarian socialist.
I am ungovernable.
I owe no allegiance to any state.
I am bound to my conscience, not to the law.
I stand for liberty, justice, and peace.

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Agarntrop
Ambassador
 
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Founded: May 14, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Agarntrop » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:19 pm

Page wrote:
Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana wrote:Are you not aware one Rojava’s treatment of its native Arabs? Or PKK terrorism in Turkey?


The PKK is a natural reaction to long and severe oppression.

I am sympathetic towards the PKK myself, to be honest. They are preferable to Erdogan's personal terrorist group (the Turkish Armed Forces).
End Child Marriage In the U.S. #18NoExceptions
Pro and Anti, Etc.
Mirror Mirror on the wall, who's the Goddest Mod of them all?
Free Rojava!
♂️♀️♐ Copy and paste this into your sig if you passed biology and neither know or care how many genders there are. ♂️♀️♐
[| LAND OF THE FREE ||AMERICAN||POLITICAL|| RP || IS || UP! | - JOIN NOW!
My country's home Secretary wrote:The future of curry in this country is at risk because of membership of the European Union

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