Turkish military offensive in Syria/Rojava

[The Greater Ohio Valley]

Furthermore Turkey is a NATO ally and of significant strategic value to the United States, not supporting Turkey would be the wrong move to make.

Turkey’s decreasing loyalty to NATO and it’s allies and it’s increasing friendliness with Russia makes them a liability, they need to go.

[Nakena]

I can't help but to have some sympathies with Turkey. Not that I approve of Erdogans offensive in Syria, but all that universal hatred, moralist outrage and comdemnation they get...

I feel alot of people have now a good opportunity to let out their sentiments against Turkey again, a country that through its alone existence alone upsets apparently a fair number of people. Theres frequent talk about destroying, dividing it, ironically exactly what popular conspiracy theories in Turkey claim to be the intention of obscure western forces.

[Duhon]

I can't help but to have some sympathies with Turkey. Not that I approve of Erdogans offensive in Syria, but all that universal hatred, moralist outrage and comdemnation they get...

I feel alot of people have now a good opportunity to let out their sentiments against Turkey again, a country that through its alone existence alone upsets apparently a fair number of people. Theres frequent talk about destroying, dividing it, ironically exactly what popular conspiracy theories in Turkey claim to be the intention of obscure western forces.

well on my part i just want them to stay put within their borders and not go kill anyone because they're of a different this or that (for all of vistulange's portrayal of turks and particularly erdogan as relatively non-bigoted people simply itching for release from their and his own domestic struggles, the situation on the ground contradicts him)

that's all i ever ask of people, but apparently blood must be spilled for pointlessness

[Nakena]

I can't help but to have some sympathies with Turkey. Not that I approve of Erdogans offensive in Syria, but all that universal hatred, moralist outrage and comdemnation they get...

I feel alot of people have now a good opportunity to let out their sentiments against Turkey again, a country that through its alone existence alone upsets apparently a fair number of people. Theres frequent talk about destroying, dividing it, ironically exactly what popular conspiracy theories in Turkey claim to be the intention of obscure western forces.

well on my part i just want them to stay put within their borders and not go kill anyone because they're of a different this or that (for all of vistulange's portrayal of turks and particularly erdogan as relatively non-bigoted people simply itching for release from their and his own domestic struggles, the situation on the ground contradicts him)

that's all i ever ask of people, but apparently blood must be spilled for pointlessness

It would have been better if they had been remained of their border. Its a shame that it all has to end like that. It didn had to come that way. Or maybe it had. The fog of war is dense surrounding Rojava.

But it seems not surprising if Erdogan choose his move out of internal domestic reasons.

[Sharania]

For those having "some sympathies with Turkey".

Turkish-Backed Forces Are Freeing Islamic State Prisoners
Ankara’s radical proxies are also apparently executing Kurdish prisoners and killing unarmed civilians, videos show.

As Turkey wages a violent campaign against Kurdish fighters and civilians across northeastern Syria, Turkish-backed proxy forces with ties to extremist groups are deliberately releasing detainees affiliated with the Islamic State from unguarded prisons, two U.S. officials confirmed to Foreign Policy.

The claim pours cold water on U.S. President Donald Trump’s suggestion on Twitter that the Syrian Kurdish fighters tasked with guarding the prisons released the detainees to grab U.S. attention after the Defense Department ordered all U.S. troops to evacuate the region.

Backed by Turkey, the Free Syrian Army (FSA), a decentralized band of Syrian rebels that has been linked to extremist groups, has launched a bloody assault on northeastern Syria, executing Kurdish prisoners and killing scores of unarmed civilians and Kurdish fighters with the Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF).

Over the weekend, a group of Turkish-backed forces ambushed a female Kurdish politician driving on the M4, the main highway through Syria and Iraq, forced her from the car, and killed her.

The group even deliberately targeted U.S. troops in Kobani on Friday, two U.S. officials, speaking on background to discuss sensitive operations, said separately. On Oct. 11, Pentagon spokesman Capt. Brook DeWalt confirmed reports that U.S. troops there had come under artillery fire from Turkey, adding that they were unharmed.

“It is not a mistake,” one senior U.S. administration official said. “They are trying to push us out.”

During Turkey’s 2018 assault on Afrin, in northwestern Syria, Turkish-backed FSA proxies allegedly committed war crimes, including mutilating the bodies of Kurdish fighters and destroying places of worship.

Now the group appears to be employing similar tactics in northeastern Syria. In addition to killing unarmed civilians, as Turkey captures territory from the SDF, the TSO is deliberately releasing Islamic State detainees previously held by the Kurdish fighters, U.S. officials say.

The United States has evidence that the prisons the SDF said they could no longer guard because they were seized by Turkish-backed forces are the same ones where the prisoners are being released, the senior U.S. administration official said. This means the Turkish proxy forces released the prisoners, an SDC official confirmed.

But the Turkish government used video footage of an empty prison in the Syrian border town of Tal Abyad to claim—without evidence—that the SDF deliberately released the detainees before fleeing the Turkish assault.

Now, get ready your vomit bags:

Trump waded into the information war on Monday, tweeting that the “Kurds may be releasing some [Islamic State prisoners] to get us involved”—an accusation that U.S. officials said is baseless.

“That has enraged our forces in Syria,” the senior U.S. administration official said. “Kurds are still defending our bases. Incredibly reckless and dishonest thing to say.”

Another U.S. official said the SDF has not abandoned the prisons—in fact, the group has moved some detainees to facilities further south.

“Turkey/TSO are in a very active information war,” the official said.

Read also:
Kobani Today, Krakow Tomorrow
Washington has abandoned the Kurds. If Europe doesn’t bolster its defenses, the Poles, Lithuanians, and Latvians could be next.

[Aureumterra]

It seems Trump is passive-aggressively urging Turkey to stop in the letter. Now the question is wether or not Turkey values its NATO ally or the Russia-Syria-Iran bloc more

[The East Marches II]

Why, thank you.

Anyway, I'm taking a break. One, it's getting too heated on this thread; two, it's a useless exercise to keep any semblance of participation here. It's a circlejerk about how awesome Rojava is.

You can't blame folks for being sympathetic to the Kurds. The PKK and affiliates are one of those outfits that folks can't help but sympathise with, because it's entirely true that Kurds have generally gotten a raw deal where they reside, and they're into democracy and secularism and all that jazz.
I may have said that the SDF's presence on the border of turkey is a security threat, but I'd still rather root for em than turkey.

Democracy my friend is a stretch. Perhaps the Stalinist version.

[The East Marches II]

For those having "some sympathies with Turkey".

Turkish-Backed Forces Are Freeing Islamic State Prisoners
Ankara’s radical proxies are also apparently executing Kurdish prisoners and killing unarmed civilians, videos show.

As Turkey wages a violent campaign against Kurdish fighters and civilians across northeastern Syria, Turkish-backed proxy forces with ties to extremist groups are deliberately releasing detainees affiliated with the Islamic State from unguarded prisons, two U.S. officials confirmed to Foreign Policy.

The claim pours cold water on U.S. President Donald Trump’s suggestion on Twitter that the Syrian Kurdish fighters tasked with guarding the prisons released the detainees to grab U.S. attention after the Defense Department ordered all U.S. troops to evacuate the region.

Backed by Turkey, the Free Syrian Army (FSA), a decentralized band of Syrian rebels that has been linked to extremist groups, has launched a bloody assault on northeastern Syria, executing Kurdish prisoners and killing scores of unarmed civilians and Kurdish fighters with the Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF).

Over the weekend, a group of Turkish-backed forces ambushed a female Kurdish politician driving on the M4, the main highway through Syria and Iraq, forced her from the car, and killed her.

The group even deliberately targeted U.S. troops in Kobani on Friday, two U.S. officials, speaking on background to discuss sensitive operations, said separately. On Oct. 11, Pentagon spokesman Capt. Brook DeWalt confirmed reports that U.S. troops there had come under artillery fire from Turkey, adding that they were unharmed.

“It is not a mistake,” one senior U.S. administration official said. “They are trying to push us out.”

During Turkey’s 2018 assault on Afrin, in northwestern Syria, Turkish-backed FSA proxies allegedly committed war crimes, including mutilating the bodies of Kurdish fighters and destroying places of worship.

Now the group appears to be employing similar tactics in northeastern Syria. In addition to killing unarmed civilians, as Turkey captures territory from the SDF, the TSO is deliberately releasing Islamic State detainees previously held by the Kurdish fighters, U.S. officials say.

The United States has evidence that the prisons the SDF said they could no longer guard because they were seized by Turkish-backed forces are the same ones where the prisoners are being released, the senior U.S. administration official said. This means the Turkish proxy forces released the prisoners, an SDC official confirmed.

But the Turkish government used video footage of an empty prison in the Syrian border town of Tal Abyad to claim—without evidence—that the SDF deliberately released the detainees before fleeing the Turkish assault.

Now, get ready your vomit bags:

Trump waded into the information war on Monday, tweeting that the “Kurds may be releasing some [Islamic State prisoners] to get us involved”—an accusation that U.S. officials said is baseless.

“That has enraged our forces in Syria,” the senior U.S. administration official said. “Kurds are still defending our bases. Incredibly reckless and dishonest thing to say.”

Another U.S. official said the SDF has not abandoned the prisons—in fact, the group has moved some detainees to facilities further south.

“Turkey/TSO are in a very active information war,” the official said.

Read also:
Kobani Today, Krakow Tomorrow
Washington has abandoned the Kurds. If Europe doesn’t bolster its defenses, the Poles, Lithuanians, and Latvians could be next.

I of course believe that notoriously left leaning rag. They also swore up and down that China wouldn't be a threat. Yet another hysterical piece by an outfit that routinely discredits itself. Yawn.

You might as well have cited Bill Kristol, David Frumm and Max Boot as reliable sources!

[The Republic of Fore]

1. And our economy could benefit just as much by trading with someone else. Without having to stabilize anything.

I don't think you understand capitalism. Some money is not enough. Lots of money is not enough. No amount of money less than all the money is ever enough. You can make the most money by trading with the most people. Obviously. But I guess the economy is another thing that you say is more important but when pressed you're willing to let fall by the wayside.

Also, like I already said what reason do I have to believe that the middle east will ever be stable? And would we really benefit that much from trading with them? I
2. Why though? Why are the kurds problems so much more important than everyone else's?

Thread's about the Turkish invasion of Rojava, what the fuck do you expect the conversation to be about? The plight of indigenous peoples in the Amazon?

3. If we wrecked our economy by banning cars far more lives would be ruined than are killed on our roads in a decade.

But they would be alive.

If there was some sort of evidence that the middle east could be stabilized, then maybe I'd be more open to the idea.

It's not a question of being open to the idea. Every reason you give for supporting this course of action you contradict. You say it's about American lives, but you're willing to sacrifice American lives for the economy. I tell you you could benefit economically from a stable Middle East and you don't care.

1. And making that money requires something that might literally never happen. We can definitely profit from trade with someone else. We *might* profit from trade with the middle east.
2. Fair enough.
3. No not really. They'd have no way of paying rent or purchasing food without a job. People with financial struggles are far more likely to be depressed. So be prepared to see an explosion in suicide.
4. I don't care because as I've said about ten times I have literally zero reason to believe the middle east will ever be stable. How stable is Afghanistan? Been there nearly 20 years. How stable is Iraq? Going on 16. How long do we need to waste for there to be stability? 40 years? 50? A century? And why does it have to be up to us to handle it? Britain, Germany, France, and Spain all have militaries. Let them do it.

[Costa Fierro]

Turkey's military interventions in Syria are similar to those conducted by the SADF in Angola, in that their intent is to effectively secure Turkish security by neutralising threats to that security. Operation Euphrates Shield in that respect is no different to the varied operations that the SADF launched, especially towards the end of the conflict in which it was coming into regular confrontations with both FAPLA and Cuban forces. Euphrates Shield lasted seven months, which is the same length of the varied operations that occurred during the Battle of Cuito Cuanavale between 1987 and 1988. Unsurprisingly it was done in conjunction with irregular allies (FSA and pro-Turkish rebel groups in Manbij/Afrin) and UNITA in Angola. While the SDF insurgency after last year's Afrin offensive is still ongoing, the main combat phase is completed.

If we're going to discuss tactics and methods then they're virtually indistinguishable; South African incursions and eventually the occupation of southern portions of Angola was done with regular conventional forces and backed by UNITA, the current occupation of portions of northern Syria was achieved with the regular conventional forces of the Turkish military and backed by local rebel groups. Both used their better air power to achieve this, although towards the end of the Border War, South Africa saw a decline in both air and ground superiority.



The political motivations may be different but to equate Turkish actions with those of the Soviet Union in 1921 or Nazi Germany in 1939 are, again, asinine.



Afghanistan is a different context entirely and the ability for the Afghanis to survive without substantial NATO support is questionable.



Chiefly being that the YPG offers no strategic value to the United States. The Turkish government, regardless of who is running it, does.



That is realpolitik in a nutshell. Furthermore this may work to the Kurd's benefit, given Russia also backs the Kurds and has a massive amount of influence over Assad, to the point where they could just simply replace him if they felt like he was getting to big for his britches.



While it does represent a security hazard, that hazard is at the moment fairly minimal, given they lack any coordination or the means to carry out attacks.



You're surprised that a country has legitimate security interests and is acting to secure those interests. Furthermore Turkey is a NATO ally and of significant strategic value to the United States, not supporting Turkey would be the wrong move to make.



That's usually how revolutions end up.



Because they know Turkey is a strategic asset to NATO.



Depends on whether or not the Iraqis can handle things by themselves.

Another extremely solid take. I hope you don't mind if I borrow your analogies in the future. It was really an excellent explanation.

Feel free.

[Costa Fierro]

tl;dr

Because they know Turkey is a strategic asset to NATO.

Wow. You are so pro-Turkish (and pro-Trump, it seems), that you now can read Erdogan's mind?

I like how you're rushing to label me as a member of some sort of camp because that fits better in your simplistic "good versus evil" fight as opposed to countries having legitimate interests and wishing to act on the behalf of, or defend, those interests. It makes it easier to comprehend complex situations if it boils down to "these people are bad and you're bad for explaining the rationale behind their actions".

Do you have any guarantees that top members of the Turkish regime have not already decided that the kind of close relations that the United States and Turkey once had are no longer in their interests?

Close US relations are always in the interests of the Turkish. It's a regional power for sure but it doesn't quite have the clout that other powers have, and when your next door neighbours (or the wider neighbourhood) includes Russia, Iran, and Saudi Arabia, having American backing is always good to have.

Given the past pattern of relations, the Turks will likely pocket U.S. goodwill and pursue their interests regardless of U.S. concerns.

That would make sense to me.

THAT would be - how do you call it? - "realpolitik in a nutshell." Which makes Trump - TRUMP! - the master of 42-dimension chess of this "realpolitik" of yours.

Not really. Trump likely doesn't know what day it is, let alone has any idea of how to conduct foreign policy properly.

What was the other you word? Ah, yes - "asine".

Asinine. And your comments suggesting that the Kurds are Poland in 1939 or that I'm pro-Turkish/pro-Trump for whatever reasoning you came up with (presumably not agreeing with you) meets the definition of asinine.

[Costa Fierro]

It seems Trump is passive-aggressively urging Turkey to stop in the letter. Now the question is wether or not Turkey values its NATO ally or the Russia-Syria-Iran bloc more

Turkey values Turkey.

[Nakena]

For those having "some sympathies with Turkey".

That would never happened if neocons and neolibs wouldn have supported Erdogans rise through the 2000s and cling true to the military. Its a shame the coup of 2016 didn suceed. It would have been awesome.

[Sharania]

I of course believe that notoriously left leaning rag.

Ah, you'd prefer something from the opposite side of the spectrum, right? Unfortunately for you, but fortunately for the decent civilized world, Völkischer Beobachter could not provide its take on the situation because, well, it expired. Still, I believe you can always access (somehow!) Daily Stormer or what is Alex Jones uses now to deliver his valuable opinions.

Btw, the article provided links for verification of its claims. Can you disprove it? Are you going to shout "FAKE NEWS!", because you don't like the message?

[Costa Fierro]

For those having "some sympathies with Turkey".

That would never happened if neocons and neolibs wouldn have supported Erdogans rise through the 2000s and cling true to the military. Its a shame the coup of 2016 didn suceed. It would have been awesome.

What makes one think the military wouldn't have done what Erdogan is doing now?

[The East Marches II]

I of course believe that notoriously left leaning rag.

Ah, you'd prefer something from the opposite side of the spectrum, right? Unfortunately for you, but fortunately for the decent civilized world, Völkischer Beobachter could not provide its take on the situation because, well, it expired. Still, I believe you can always access (somehow!) Daily Stormer or what is Alex Jones uses now to deliver his valuable opinions.

Btw, the article provided links for verification of its claims. Can you disprove it? Are you going to shout "FAKE NEWS!", because you don't like the message?

Why would I bother putting forth the effort? You discredit yourself with your tone and posts far better than any effort post I could ever do.

Völkischer Beobachter is very plebian. The thinking man prefers Kladderadatsch. Please get my media preferences correct.

[Autumn Wind]

I of course believe that notoriously left leaning rag. They also swore up and down that China wouldn't be a threat. Yet another hysterical piece by an outfit that routinely discredits itself. Yawn.

Do you have evidence for Forein Policy being a notorious left-leaning rag? The fact check reviews I’ve seen point to it being centrist. I haven’t seen anything pointing to any routine notoriety for being left-leaning. They’ve also been recognized for being well reseached compared to other news media, which would speak against it being a rag.

Not saying you are wrong, but I’ve never heard of Foreign Policy spoken of like that.

[The East Marches II]

I of course believe that notoriously left leaning rag. They also swore up and down that China wouldn't be a threat. Yet another hysterical piece by an outfit that routinely discredits itself. Yawn.

Do you have evidence for Forein Policy being a notorious left-leaning rag? The fact check reviews I’ve seen point to it being centrist. I haven’t seen anything pointing to any routine notoriety for being left-leaning. They’ve also been recognized for being well reseached compared to other news media, which would speak against it being a rag.

Not saying you are wrong, but I’ve never heard of Foreign Policy spoken of like that.

I was being hyperbolic. It is well known for a particular worldview on foreign policy which can best be described as 90s Democrat. It's all very well and good to have such a view, but their articles lean towards hyperbole when it comes to crimes committed in a warzone and towards intervention via airstrikes. It also advocates "entangling" with China as opposed to serious opposition as of late. I am of course opposed to this worldview myself as I don't believe all values are universal nor do I prefer a world where China can influence the US (see: blizzard & NBA). I remember also where hysteria, lack of facts and short sightedness led us. 8 trillion dollars wasted, broken Joes and nothing to show for it. It is better to be pragmatic than it is to emulate Don Quixote and tilt at windmills.

[Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia]

You can't blame folks for being sympathetic to the Kurds. The PKK and affiliates are one of those outfits that folks can't help but sympathise with, because it's entirely true that Kurds have generally gotten a raw deal where they reside, and they're into democracy and secularism and all that jazz.
I may have said that the SDF's presence on the border of turkey is a security threat, but I'd still rather root for em than turkey.

Democracy my friend is a stretch. Perhaps the Stalinist version.

This ain't it, chief. Libertarian socialism has nothing to do with Stalinism, and Abdullah Ocalan, the founder of democratic confederalism, has been very clear on his opposition towards authoritarianism. Anarchists wouldn't support Rojava if it was indeed a Stalinist project, given that Nestor Makhno's Free Territories of Ukraine were ruthlessly suppressed by the Bolsheviks during the Russian Civil War.

[The East Marches II]

Democracy my friend is a stretch. Perhaps the Stalinist version.

This ain't it, chief. Libertarian socialism has nothing to do with Stalinism, and Abdullah Ocalan, the founder of democratic confederalism, has been very clear on his opposition towards authoritarianism. Anarchists wouldn't support Rojava if it was indeed a Stalinist project, given that Nestor Makhno's Free Territories of Ukraine were ruthlessly suppressed by the Bolsheviks during the Russian Civil War.

Ocalan was quite the notorious Stalanist type in the 80s and 90s, then he """reformed""". Those friendly photos holding pictures of him everywhere, the cult of personality and disappearance/betrayal of other opposition types is hardly indicative of a democracy. They are smart to market themselves like that and to use cadres in the way they do. It allows for plausible deniability and the ability to spin things for less informed international viewers. Anarchists were fooled into supporting the Spanish Republic when the Communist party killed their leaders, suppressed their unions and removed their rivals during the Spanish Civil War. The trusting nature of anarchists have tragically been manipulated plenty of times over and then brutalized by central government party types through out history. It is a common refrain.

[Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia]

Do you have evidence for Forein Policy being a notorious left-leaning rag? The fact check reviews I’ve seen point to it being centrist. I haven’t seen anything pointing to any routine notoriety for being left-leaning. They’ve also been recognized for being well reseached compared to other news media, which would speak against it being a rag.

Not saying you are wrong, but I’ve never heard of Foreign Policy spoken of like that.

I was being hyperbolic. It is well known for a particular worldview on foreign policy which can best be described as 90s Democrat. It's all very well and good to have such a view, but their articles lean towards hyperbole when it comes to crimes committed in a warzone and towards intervention via airstrikes. It also advocates "entangling" with China as opposed to serious opposition as of late. I am of course opposed to this worldview myself as I don't believe all values are universal nor do I prefer a world where China can influence the US (see: blizzard & NBA). I remember also where hysteria, lack of facts and short sightedness led us. 8 trillion dollars wasted, broken Joes and nothing to show for it. It is better to be pragmatic than it is to emulate Don Quixote and tilt at windmills.

The New Democrats of the 1990s were centrist neoliberals devoid of any legitimate ideology other than raw opportunism and trickledown economics in all but name, and likewise, Foreign Policy reflects that worldview. Anyone who seriously thinks the Democrats are a leftwing political party should take a good look on their actual record over the last few decades and then try to match it with social democracy. That test would fail of course, given that most Democrats are more or less enlightened centrists, especially the 90s variety.

[Bear Stearns]

For those having "some sympathies with Turkey".

Turkish-Backed Forces Are Freeing Islamic State Prisoners
Ankara’s radical proxies are also apparently executing Kurdish prisoners and killing unarmed civilians, videos show.





Now, get ready your vomit bags:



Read also:
Kobani Today, Krakow Tomorrow
Washington has abandoned the Kurds. If Europe doesn’t bolster its defenses, the Poles, Lithuanians, and Latvians could be next.

I of course believe that notoriously left leaning rag. They also swore up and down that China wouldn't be a threat. Yet another hysterical piece by an outfit that routinely discredits itself. Yawn.

You might as well have cited Bill Kristol, David Frumm and Max Boot as reliable sources!

Glad you're back my friend.

Because my IRL life and profession require me to be "in" on what the tonier crowds are up to, I actually do pay for a subscription to The New Yorker. It's political takes are dumpster fire, but it keeps me informed on the mindless things the chattering classes find important. And after awhile, I'm starting to find those things important too.

[Bear Stearns]

For those having "some sympathies with Turkey".

That would never happened if neocons and neolibs wouldn have supported Erdogans rise through the 2000s and cling true to the military. Its a shame the coup of 2016 didn suceed. It would have been awesome.

It's almost like these warmongers forget that it was their own policies that got us to where we are today.

[Bear Stearns]

I of course believe that notoriously left leaning rag. They also swore up and down that China wouldn't be a threat. Yet another hysterical piece by an outfit that routinely discredits itself. Yawn.

Do you have evidence for Forein Policy being a notorious left-leaning rag? The fact check reviews I’ve seen point to it being centrist. I haven’t seen anything pointing to any routine notoriety for being left-leaning. They’ve also been recognized for being well reseached compared to other news media, which would speak against it being a rag.

Not saying you are wrong, but I’ve never heard of Foreign Policy spoken of like that.

It's essentially a trade magazine for political consultants and people who work in think tanks. Not left-wing, but certainly neoliberal.

[The East Marches II]

I was being hyperbolic. It is well known for a particular worldview on foreign policy which can best be described as 90s Democrat. It's all very well and good to have such a view, but their articles lean towards hyperbole when it comes to crimes committed in a warzone and towards intervention via airstrikes. It also advocates "entangling" with China as opposed to serious opposition as of late. I am of course opposed to this worldview myself as I don't believe all values are universal nor do I prefer a world where China can influence the US (see: blizzard & NBA). I remember also where hysteria, lack of facts and short sightedness led us. 8 trillion dollars wasted, broken Joes and nothing to show for it. It is better to be pragmatic than it is to emulate Don Quixote and tilt at windmills.

The New Democrats of the 1990s were centrist neoliberals devoid of any legitimate ideology other than raw opportunism and trickledown economics in all but name, and likewise, Foreign Policy reflects that worldview. Anyone who seriously thinks the Democrats are a leftwing political party should take a good look on their actual record over the last few decades and then try to match it with social democracy. That test would fail of course, given that most Democrats are more or less enlightened centrists, especially the 90s variety.

That's a valid opinion on the matter. It is one I disagree with but there are grounds for seeing it that way given their betrayal of industrial workers. Though I'd argue that's a feature not a bug of our left. I'd also note Bear Sterns description of them may have been more accurate than my own the more I think of it tbh.