Turkish military offensive in Syria/Rojava

[Chernoslavia]

You might want to source that claim.

Yeah cuz it's not like the Kurds haven't been committing crimes against Turkish civies right?

Whataboutism of the Kurds in response to someone stating genocide is bad makes it look that way.

Wrong again.

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=473245&p=36316225#p36316225

[Nea Byzantia]

Erdogan threatened to open the flood gates and send millions of refugees to Europe if they continue the hardline against Turkey. Fun times are ahead.

Counter that threat with Turkey being expelled from NATO and Erdogan would fold.

Somehow, I don't think so; especially given the fact that Turkey has already taken every possible action that could be used to make a case for its expulsion from NATO. But NATO doesn't have a mechanism for expulsion, anyways, so this is a moot point.

[Vistulange]

Look, guys, I get that the whole "Sultan Erdoğan" circlejerk is fun, Turkey should be kicked from NATO circlejerk is fun, it's all really fun and exciting to talk about while branding anybody who dares have the slightest different opinion from you to be shills and "listening to Turkish propaganda", but let's, for God's sake, get a few facts in and then the circlejerk can carry on as though nothing had happened.

"Turkey should be kicked from NATO".

Guys, the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, formed by the North Atlantic Treaty - linked here - does not have an expulsion mechanism. Full stop. It only provides provisions for a member state to leave on its own accord with Article 13. Now, it is without a doubt that some people will either say or think "but Vistulange, you Turko-Erdoğan shill, we can just bypass Turkey, have a fait accompli and just not include Turkey in NATO's proceedings, you're just being pedantic". Well, yeah, that's possible, the long-term ramifications of doing so notwithstanding, but that's not really "kicking Turkey from NATO", is it? It's "bypassing Turkey when NATO affairs are involved". Different concepts, and if that's pedantry, so be it.

"Sultan Erdoğan [insert whatever here]".

The memery of the whole thing aside, I honestly can't take people who post in this manner in a non-humorous fashion seriously. It shows a serious lack of care and/or knowledge about Turkish and Ottoman political history, and a serious lack of knowledge regarding current Turkish politics. If you genuinely think that Erdoğan has some sort of iron hand over everything in the country akin to a genuine classical-era Ottoman sultan, I honestly can't help you. I can't force you to follow Turkish media and politics in depth. I can't teach you Turkish, either, as much as I'd love to.

I mean, I enjoy the meme of Erdoğan photoshopped in place of Selim III myself, but when that becomes an unironic arguing point, it gets a little cringey.

"Erdoğan kills Kurds, because it's his ideology".

See above. Oddly enough, nobody was talking "Erdoğan loves Kurds, because it's his ideology" back in 2014-2015 - when I was also active on this board, albeit as a far less mature person - when he was a conservative politican who was also very cosmopolitan along Muslim lines. I could go on to say that Erdoğan in fact isn't a "fundamentalist Islamist", but instead say that he's a very realist, pragmatic politician who simply changes alliances in relation to domestic politics as he deems necessary, but that's not really the point here, is it now? I linked two articles which were written relatively recently regarding the Kurdish issue in Turkey, and I am willing to bet that not even half of the people who are posting on this thread about Kurds, what they want, how they feel, etc. have even bothered to read them, or to ask me how they can access the articles I've linked, because that doesn't fit the easy way of slinging mud.

So really, what is the debate on this thread right now?

[Gormwood]

Whataboutism of the Kurds in response to someone stating genocide is bad makes it look that way.

Wrong again.

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=473245&p=36316225#p36316225

Oh look, you conveniently omit an important sentence to spin it as him claiming the Kurds are superior to the Turks.

Because I don't want a genocide to happen, that obviously means that I think Kurds are naturally better than Turks. What an absolute bullshit line of thinking. Not that I'd expect anything better, considering you're more concerned with bitching about "virtue signaling" than this atrocious invasion of Northern Syria at the hands of Erdogan's regime.

Yeah cuz it's not like the Kurds haven't been committing crimes against Turkish civies right?

[United Muscovite Nations]

Look, guys, I get that the whole "Sultan Erdoğan" circlejerk is fun, Turkey should be kicked from NATO circlejerk is fun, it's all really fun and exciting to talk about while branding anybody who dares have the slightest different opinion from you to be shills and "listening to Turkish propaganda", but let's, for God's sake, get a few facts in and then the circlejerk can carry on as though nothing had happened.

"Turkey should be kicked from NATO".

Guys, the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, formed by the North Atlantic Treaty - linked here - does not have an expulsion mechanism. Full stop. It only provides provisions for a member state to leave on its own accord with Article 13. Now, it is without a doubt that some people will either say or think "but Vistulange, you Turko-Erdoğan shill, we can just bypass Turkey, have a fait accompli and just not include Turkey in NATO's proceedings, you're just being pedantic". Well, yeah, that's possible, the long-term ramifications of doing so notwithstanding, but that's not really "kicking Turkey from NATO", is it? It's "bypassing Turkey when NATO affairs are involved". Different concepts, and if that's pedantry, so be it.

"Sultan Erdoğan [insert whatever here]".

The memery of the whole thing aside, I honestly can't take people who post in this manner in a non-humorous fashion seriously. It shows a serious lack of care and/or knowledge about Turkish and Ottoman political history, and a serious lack of knowledge regarding current Turkish politics. If you genuinely think that Erdoğan has some sort of iron hand over everything in the country akin to a genuine classical-era Ottoman sultan, I honestly can't help you. I can't force you to follow Turkish media and politics in depth. I can't teach you Turkish, either, as much as I'd love to.

I mean, I enjoy the meme of Erdoğan photoshopped in place of Selim III myself, but when that becomes an unironic arguing point, it gets a little cringey.

"Erdoğan kills Kurds, because it's his ideology".

See above. Oddly enough, nobody was talking "Erdoğan loves Kurds, because it's his ideology" back in 2014-2015 - when I was also active on this board, albeit as a far less mature person - when he was a conservative politican who was also very cosmopolitan along Muslim lines. I could go on to say that Erdoğan in fact isn't a "fundamentalist Islamist", but instead say that he's a very realist, pragmatic politician who simply changes alliances in relation to domestic politics as he deems necessary, but that's not really the point here, is it now? I linked two articles which were written relatively recently regarding the Kurdish issue in Turkey, and I am willing to bet that not even half of the people who are posting on this thread about Kurds, what they want, how they feel, etc. have even bothered to read them, or to ask me how they can access the articles I've linked, because that doesn't fit the easy way of slinging mud.

So really, what is the debate on this thread right now?

Finally, some good fucking commentary.

[Nea Byzantia]

Look, guys, I get that the whole "Sultan Erdoğan" circlejerk is fun, Turkey should be kicked from NATO circlejerk is fun, it's all really fun and exciting to talk about while branding anybody who dares have the slightest different opinion from you to be shills and "listening to Turkish propaganda", but let's, for God's sake, get a few facts in and then the circlejerk can carry on as though nothing had happened.

"Turkey should be kicked from NATO".

Guys, the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, formed by the North Atlantic Treaty - linked here - does not have an expulsion mechanism. Full stop. It only provides provisions for a member state to leave on its own accord with Article 13. Now, it is without a doubt that some people will either say or think "but Vistulange, you Turko-Erdoğan shill, we can just bypass Turkey, have a fait accompli and just not include Turkey in NATO's proceedings, you're just being pedantic". Well, yeah, that's possible, the long-term ramifications of doing so notwithstanding, but that's not really "kicking Turkey from NATO", is it? It's "bypassing Turkey when NATO affairs are involved". Different concepts, and if that's pedantry, so be it.

"Sultan Erdoğan [insert whatever here]".

The memery of the whole thing aside, I honestly can't take people who post in this manner in a non-humorous fashion seriously. It shows a serious lack of care and/or knowledge about Turkish and Ottoman political history, and a serious lack of knowledge regarding current Turkish politics. If you genuinely think that Erdoğan has some sort of iron hand over everything in the country akin to a genuine classical-era Ottoman sultan, I honestly can't help you. I can't force you to follow Turkish media and politics in depth. I can't teach you Turkish, either, as much as I'd love to.

I mean, I enjoy the meme of Erdoğan photoshopped in place of Selim III myself, but when that becomes an unironic arguing point, it gets a little cringey.

"Erdoğan kills Kurds, because it's his ideology".

See above. Oddly enough, nobody was talking "Erdoğan loves Kurds, because it's his ideology" back in 2014-2015 - when I was also active on this board, albeit as a far less mature person - when he was a conservative politican who was also very cosmopolitan along Muslim lines. I could go on to say that Erdoğan in fact isn't a "fundamentalist Islamist", but instead say that he's a very realist, pragmatic politician who simply changes alliances in relation to domestic politics as he deems necessary, but that's not really the point here, is it now? I linked two articles which were written relatively recently regarding the Kurdish issue in Turkey, and I am willing to bet that not even half of the people who are posting on this thread about Kurds, what they want, how they feel, etc. have even bothered to read them, or to ask me how they can access the articles I've linked, because that doesn't fit the easy way of slinging mud.

So really, what is the debate on this thread right now?

Can't really argue with this.

[Chernoslavia]

Wrong again.

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=473245&p=36316225#p36316225

Oh look, you conveniently omit an important sentence to spin it as him claiming the Kurds are superior to the Turks.

Yeah cuz it's not like the Kurds haven't been committing crimes against Turkish civies right?

Imagine being so desperate that you continue to flat out lie about what I'm saying even after being proven wrong multiple times already. Quit your bullshit.

[Torrocca]

Wrong again.

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=473245&p=36316225#p36316225

Oh look, you conveniently omit an important sentence to spin it as her* claiming the Kurds are superior to the Turks.

Yeah cuz it's not like the Kurds haven't been committing crimes against Turkish civies right?

FTFY.

Oh look, you conveniently omit an important sentence to spin it as him claiming the Kurds are superior to the Turks.

Imagine being so desperate that you continue to flat out lie about what I'm saying even after being proven wrong multiple times already. Quit your bullshit.

I mean, you can call people liars all you like, but your own post's words contradict the shit you're saying.

[Chernoslavia]

quote="Gormwood";p="36316707"]

Wrong again.

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=473245&p=36316225#p36316225

Oh look, you conveniently omit an important sentence to spin it as her* claiming the Kurds are superior to the Turks.

Yeah cuz it's not like the Kurds haven't been committing crimes against Turkish civies right?

FTFY.

Oh look, you conveniently omit an important sentence to spin it as him claiming the Kurds are superior to the Turks.

Imagine being so desperate that you continue to flat out lie about what I'm saying even after being proven wrong multiple times already. Quit your bullshit.

I mean, you can call people liars all you like, but your own post's words contradict the shit you're saying.[/quote]

So do you concede that you're racist against ethnic Turks?

[Gormwood]

Oh look, you conveniently omit an important sentence to spin it as him claiming the Kurds are superior to the Turks.

Imagine being so desperate that you continue to flat out lie about what I'm saying even after being proven wrong multiple times already. Quit your bullshit.

Since you are apparently failing to register inconvenient parts...

This is what you're pretending to respond to:

Because I don't want a genocide to happen, that obviously means that I think Kurds are naturally better than Turks.

And this is the crucial sentence that you block out and which changes the context of the strawman you claim was really there:

What an absolute bullshit line of thinking.

You're the one reeking of desperation here. :^]

[Torrocca]

I mean, you can call people liars all you like, but your own post's words contradict the shit you're saying.

So do you concede that you're racist against ethnic Turks?

We both know that you don't actually think that my sarcastic response to your inane suggestion that I supposedly somehow think Kurds are superior to Turks was a racist jab against Turkish people. We both also know what you meant by blaming the crimes of the PKK in particular on the Kurds in general. Quit it with this bullshit.

[Chernoslavia]

Imagine being so desperate that you continue to flat out lie about what I'm saying even after being proven wrong multiple times already. Quit your bullshit.

Since you are apparently failing to register inconvenient parts...

This is what you're pretending to respond to:

Because I don't want a genocide to happen, that obviously means that I think Kurds are naturally better than Turks.

And this is the crucial sentence that you block out and which changes the context of the strawman you claim was really there:

What an absolute bullshit line of thinking.

You're the one reeking of desperation here. :^]

I wasn't pretending, that's what I was responding to, but you decide to stick to your guns because you're mad that I proved you wrong. You're a liar and a bad one at that.

[United Muscovite Nations]

So do you concede that you're racist against ethnic Turks?

We both know that you don't actually think that my sarcastic response to your inane suggestion that I supposedly somehow think Kurds are superior to Turks was a racist jab against Turkish people. We both also know what you meant by blaming the crimes of the PKK in particular on the Kurds in general. Quit it with this bullshit.

The YPG is the Syrian branch of the PKK, as many have already sourced in the first few pages of this thread, and has been confirmed in the past by the US State Department. Turkey has a legitimate grievance.

[Chernoslavia]

So do you concede that you're racist against ethnic Turks?

We both know that you don't actually think that my sarcastic response to your inane suggestion that I supposedly somehow think Kurds are superior to Turks was a racist jab against Turkish people. We both also know what you meant by blaming the crimes of the PKK in particular on the Kurds in general. Quit it with this bullshit.

Oh now you were just being sarcastic My accusation is what was sarcastic, I was trying to use your own dog shit logic against you so that you'd see how insane your claims that I said genocide against the Kurds is okay.

[Chernoslavia]

We both know that you don't actually think that my sarcastic response to your inane suggestion that I supposedly somehow think Kurds are superior to Turks was a racist jab against Turkish people. We both also know what you meant by blaming the crimes of the PKK in particular on the Kurds in general. Quit it with this bullshit.

The YPG is the Syrian branch of the PKK, as many have already sourced in the first few pages of this thread, and has been confirmed in the past by the US State Department. Turkey has a legitimate grievance.

Oh watch out! Disagreeing with Torrocca means you think the Kurdish people deserve genocide.

[Torrocca]

We both know that you don't actually think that my sarcastic response to your inane suggestion that I supposedly somehow think Kurds are superior to Turks was a racist jab against Turkish people. We both also know what you meant by blaming the crimes of the PKK in particular on the Kurds in general. Quit it with this bullshit.

The YPG is the Syrian branch of the PKK, as many have already sourced in the first few pages of this thread, and has been confirmed in the past by the US State Department. Turkey has a legitimate grievance.

The YPG is the military arm of the PYD and only has some connections to the PKK; it isn't a branch of the PKK.

Furthermore, I don't really give much of a shit how the US State Department decides to designate a revolutionary group. Besides that, the PKK and YPG alone still don't constitute the Kurds in general, even if they were actually the same organization and the YPG was equally responsible for the PKK's uprising and attacks in Turkey.

[Gormwood]

Since you are apparently failing to register inconvenient parts...

This is what you're pretending to respond to:


And this is the crucial sentence that you block out and which changes the context of the strawman you claim was really there:


You're the one reeking of desperation here. :^]

I wasn't pretending, that's what I was responding to, but you decide to stick to your guns because you're mad that I proved you wrong. You're a liar and a bad one at that.

You're seriously deluding yourself into believing you actually refuted the point I was making. But you do you. I should have seen it when your flag is some Internet Tom Green rip off who got a show cancelled by [adult swim] before it even started.

[Torrocca]

We both know that you don't actually think that my sarcastic response to your inane suggestion that I supposedly somehow think Kurds are superior to Turks was a racist jab against Turkish people. We both also know what you meant by blaming the crimes of the PKK in particular on the Kurds in general. Quit it with this bullshit.

Oh now you were just being sarcastic

Nah, I was being sarcastic from the beginning when I responded to your bullshit like so:

To Torrocca so long as they're Socialist, they're automatically better than the Turks, never mind the atrocities they committed themselves.

Because I don't want a genocide to happen, that obviously means that I think Kurds are naturally better than Turks. What an absolute bullshit line of thinking. Not that I'd expect anything better, considering you're more concerned with bitching about "virtue signaling" than this atrocious invasion of Northern Syria at the hands of Erdogan's regime.

Do take note how I was calling your ludicrous bullshit suggestion - that I somehow think that the Kurds were naturally better than the Turks - bullshit.

But, by all means, please keep falsely insinuating that I'm the racist one here after you decided to blame the entire Kurdish ethnicity for the PKK's attacks on civilians in Turkey as a justification for Turkey's invasion of Northern Syria.

[United Muscovite Nations]

The YPG is the Syrian branch of the PKK, as many have already sourced in the first few pages of this thread, and has been confirmed in the past by the US State Department. Turkey has a legitimate grievance.

1) The YPG is the military arm of the PYD and only has some connections to the PKK; it isn't a branch of the PKK.

Furthermore, I don't really give much of a shit how the US State Department decides to designate a revolutionary group. 2) Besides that, the PKK and YPG alone still don't constitute the Kurds in general, even if they were actually the same organization and the YPG was equally responsible for the PKK's uprising and attacks in Turkey.

1) Every expert on the matter and even the YPG's own fighters disagree. In fact, about half of its forces are Turkish Kurds

2) Perhaps not, but the Turkish state certainly should be worried about a state propping up on its southern border that is linked to a group trying to start a civil war in its territory.

[Torrocca]

1) The YPG is the military arm of the PYD and only has some connections to the PKK; it isn't a branch of the PKK.

Furthermore, I don't really give much of a shit how the US State Department decides to designate a revolutionary group. 2) Besides that, the PKK and YPG alone still don't constitute the Kurds in general, even if they were actually the same organization and the YPG was equally responsible for the PKK's uprising and attacks in Turkey.

1) Every expert on the matter and even the YPG's own fighters disagree. In fact, about half of its forces are Turkish Kurds

I'd like a source on the YPG's own fighters saying they're part of the PKK. As it is, all I've seen from sources is the USA and Turkey saying the YPG's a terrorist organization, and those two states calling other groups terrorists has about as much weight to it as the vacuum of space.

2) Perhaps not, but the Turkish state certainly should be worried about a state propping up on its southern border that is linked to a group trying to start a civil war in its territory.

I don't really give a fuck about the Turkish state's concerns about an oppressed minority group trying to start a revolution either, tbqh. I do give a fuck about the fact that the PKK's been attacking civilians, though, and would certainly hope whatever future actions they take happen to avoid unnecessary bloodshed.

[Nakena]

The YPG is the military arm of the PYD and only has some connections to the PKK; it isn't a branch of the PKK.

Theres more than some connections between them. They are, at the very least, very closely related.

Hmmm:

Despite the tightened border, Kurds from Turkey remain well represented in the YPG, further underscoring the group’s links to the PKK. In an interview with the Wall Street Journal, Kurdish fighter Zind Ruken expanded on the PKK-YPG relationship. “Sometimes I’m a PKK, sometimes I’m a PJAK [the PKK-allied affiliate, active in Iran], sometimes I’m a YPG. It doesn’t really matter. They are all members of the PKK.”

The YPG’s casualty data confirms linkages between international PKK-linked groups. Kurds from Turkey total 49.24 percent of the YPG’s self-reported casualties between January 2013 and January 2016, according to an ongoing Atlantic Council study. YPG martyrdom notices show that 359 Turkish citizens, 323 Syrians, 32 Iranians, seven Iraqis, two Australians, two Azeris, and a person from England, Germany, Greece, and the United States each have been killed fighting with the group since January 2013. To be sure, there are methodological problems with the data: The two authors relied on self-reported numbers and have not been able to cross-reference this information with the PYD.

Sauce: https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/m ... onnection/

And no that doesn't means I am in explicit favor of Erdogans intervention but it's just something thats there.

[Chernoslavia]

I wasn't pretending, that's what I was responding to, but you decide to stick to your guns because you're mad that I proved you wrong. You're a liar and a bad one at that.

You're seriously deluding yourself into believing you actually refuted the point I was making. But you do you. I should have seen it when your flag is some Internet Tom Green rip off who got a show cancelled by [adult swim] before it even started.

Ignoring your butthurt remark against my meme flag...I already did, multiple fucking times in fact and you know it. If you truly think otherwise, you're welcome to provide evidence that I said that genocide against Kurds is justified, but we both know you don't got shit on me and it's why you're intentionally trying to put words into my mouth.

[Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum]

Here's hoping the PKK step up their activities in Turkey.

Voicing support for the activities of a designated terrorist group (by at least a score of nations and international organisations) is not on, and as such you are *** warned for trolling (advocating violence/death) ***

The PKK would be much more preferable than Recep Turnip Erdodog's Islamist Reign of Terror across Anatolia.

Political nicknaming is not acceptable on this site. Knock it off.

Thank you most correct decision.

homo sapiens is ruining the world

We both know that you don't actually think that my sarcastic response to your inane suggestion that I supposedly somehow think Kurds are superior to Turks was a racist jab against Turkish people. We both also know what you meant by blaming the crimes of the PKK in particular on the Kurds in general. Quit it with this bullshit.

The YPG is the Syrian branch of the PKK, as many have already sourced in the first few pages of this thread, and has been confirmed in the past by the US State Department. Turkey has a legitimate grievance.

Absolutely I agree. assad should be contacted

[Vistulange]

So, it took me a little time to find the image in English and in a high definition, but I finally found it. Spoilering it as it's quite large. (Please tell me if the image is not visible.)

Essentially, the idea of "PKK = YPG = [Some other organisation you've probably never heard of]" is...complicated. Honestly, it's very difficult to track these fellows down, especially when the three-letter acronyms are all over the place. For instance, we maintain that the PKK commits terrorist attacks in Turkey, but the idea is that the PKK is the political wing of "Turkish Kurdistan", i.e. "Kurdistan Workers' Party", "Partiya Karkerên Kurdistanê"; while its armed wing is actually the HPG, or "People's Defence Forces", "Hêzên Parastina Gel".

All of these organisations are - again, theoretically - connected to the transnational organisation, KCK (Kurdistan Communities Union, Koma Civakên Kurdistan), which is essentially meant to be the primary executive organ of the Kurdish state. In reality, however, due to practical concerns, these organisations - PKK, PJAK, PYD, and so on - act in relative independence from one another and the KCK. On the other hand, Kongra-Gel is the legislative organ which elects the executive council of the KCK.

I hope that brings at least some amount of clarity to the issue at hand.

[Gormwood]

You're seriously deluding yourself into believing you actually refuted the point I was making. But you do you. I should have seen it when your flag is some Internet Tom Green rip off who got a show cancelled by [adult swim] before it even started.

Ignoring your butthurt remark against my meme flag...I already did, multiple fucking times in fact and you know it. If you truly think otherwise, you're welcome to provide evidence that I said that genocide against Kurds is justified, but we both know you don't got shit on me and it's why you're intentionally trying to put words into my mouth.

It's not butthurt but pity that you worship someone so hackneyed that [adult swim] with its ground level standards for live shows said "No thanks". :^]

You didn't have to confess in blatant, exact terms like a Scooby Doo villain. Your whataboutism with the PKK in response to Torocca emphasizing genocide is bad pretty much sealed that you think Kurdish genocide is justified.