Turkish military offensive in Syria/Rojava

[Napkizemlja]

Recognizing that the YPG/PKK are not the saints people think and that the Turks have legitimate grievances with them that don't really matter to the West is not the same as being pro-Erdogan lmao.

A run of the mill Kemalist would have been lobbing shells into Rojava ages ago.

Pretending the turks didn't shoot refugees or that Turkey is being benevolent is

Is it really different than pretending the YPG is better when they've merked little kids after accusing them of being terrorists as well? http://www.syriahr.com/en/?p=18861

[Rojava Free State]

No they were refugees and no one except you is saying they were terrorists. Once again you just keep lying to try and defend Turkey and demean the kurds. The kurds can't even breath without people like you demeaning them but Turkey can do no wrong can it? The kurds have pretty strategic value when they've been helping to fighting terrorists in the region. You know, the terrorists Turkey the NATO ally keeps helping

Then why did they try blackmailing us with the threat of letting them all go?

Cause they know America doesn't want to take more refugees #1 cause they cause strain on the system and #2 because so many people in the West are brain dead enough to actually believe that somehow the Syrian refugees are ISIS.

[Bear Stearns]

What have I demeaned them about? Forced conscription of teenagers? Use of child soldiers? Kidnapping? Perhaps I should have brought up their control of the drug trade and human trafficking?

No they don't. You don't understand strategic value if you think Northwest Syria matters when compared to the Bosphorus. That's a very bad joke. Russian containment is worth more than Rojava. It's really got nothing worth dying for.

"Russian containment matters more than stopping a homicidal death cult from reemerging, taking land and establishing a haven for terror against the rest of the world" you beat me in the bad jokes department. Once again I see you are one sided and biased against the kurds while supporting the wannabe ottoman state of Turkey

Duh... CNN said that Putin is Hitler and hacked our election.

[Wallenburg]

No they were refugees and no one except you is saying they were terrorists. Once again you just keep lying to try and defend Turkey and demean the kurds. The kurds can't even breath without people like you demeaning them but Turkey can do no wrong can it? The kurds have pretty strategic value when they've been helping to fighting terrorists in the region. You know, the terrorists Turkey the NATO ally keeps helping

What have I demeaned them about? Forced conscription of teenagers? Use of child soldiers? Kidnapping? Perhaps I should have brought up their control of the drug trade and human trafficking?

No they don't. You don't understand strategic value if you think Northwest Syria matters when compared to the Bosphorus. That's a very bad joke. Russian containment is worth more than Rojava. It's really got nothing worth dying for.

[Napkizemlja]

Then why did they try blackmailing us with the threat of letting them all go?

Cause they know America doesn't want to take more refugees #1 cause they cause strain on the system and #2 because so many people in the West are brain dead enough to actually believe that somehow the Syrian refugees are ISIS.

So good guys blackmail their allies with releasing known terrorists? Man this troop pullout seems more and more justified.

[Wallenburg]

Cause they know America doesn't want to take more refugees #1 cause they cause strain on the system and #2 because so many people in the West are brain dead enough to actually believe that somehow the Syrian refugees are ISIS.

So good guys blackmail their allies with releasing known terrorists? Man this troop pullout seems more and more justified.

Still peddling that little lie?

[Bear Stearns]

conveniently leaving out that Turkey has been steadily drifting into Russia's sphere of influence.

Not really...Turkey is against Assad, which means they're against Russia.

[Major-Tom]

conveniently leaving out that Turkey has been steadily drifting into Russia's sphere of influence.

I'm half certain that map just shows the countries not in NATO as being part of the "Russian sphere of influence," what a deliberately misleading map.

[Flawless Walruses]

Suddenly? I've been pretty consistent in my views of them. Not that an invasion of the islands would have been better, but the use of nuclear weapons is clearly heinous.

japan deserved it, honestly. it was mercy compared to what they did in Manchuria and Nanjing and an invasion would have been far more costly for us and them.

That's whacked... The civilians of Hiroshima and Nagasaki did not commit those crimes. Tojo's government went to great lengths to hide its crimes from them, and lied about anything that got through.

An amphibious landing on Kyushu would have been an absolute meatgrinder, though. There is a very good chance the Allies would have been repulsed with horrific losses of men and equipment. Could have forced a negotiated settlement.

Nuking civilian targets was a war crime then and now, and Truman's staff were all messed up over it, even though it won the war.

[Wallenburg]

Yes, without them, they would be. Go ahead Wallenburg, tell us why Kurdistan is worth even a single American Life. I want to hear you moralize to us.

Between Turkey murdering potentially hundreds of thousands of innocent people and a handful of US troops being at marginal risk, I'll take the latter option, yeah.

[Bear Stearns]

Yes, without them, they would be. Go ahead Wallenburg, tell us why Kurdistan is worth even a single American Life. I want to hear you moralize to us.

Between Turkey murdering potentially hundreds of thousands of innocent people and a handful of US troops being at marginal risk, I'll take the latter option, yeah.

Look at the long-term consequences of US intervention. Where has it ever done good in the Middle East?

[Bear Stearns]

japan deserved it, honestly. it was mercy compared to what they did in Manchuria and Nanjing and an invasion would have been far more costly for us and them.

That's whacked... The civilians of Hiroshima and Nagasaki did not commit those crimes. Tojo's government went to great lengths to hide its crimes from them, and lied about anything that got through.

An amphibious landing on Kyushu would have been an absolute meatgrinder, though. There is a very good chance the Allies would have been repulsed with horrific losses of men and equipment. Could have forced a negotiated settlement.

Nuking civilian targets was a war crime then and now, and Truman's staff were all messed up over it, even though it won the war.

Agreed.

[Wallenburg]

Between Turkey murdering potentially hundreds of thousands of innocent people and a handful of US troops being at marginal risk, I'll take the latter option, yeah.

>Murdering hundreds of thousands of people

Do you hear yourself? Do you realize how absurd that fear is?

Yes, because as we know, Turkey would never slaughter hundreds of thousands of ethnic minorities.

[Napkizemlja]

The Turks didn't even rack up 100 000 killed within their own borders in 40 years against the PKK and that was when they gave even less of a shit about their international image, let alone in Rojava lmao.

[Napkizemlja]

>Murdering hundreds of thousands of people

Do you hear yourself? Do you realize how absurd that fear is?

Yes, because as we know, Turkey would never slaughter hundreds of thousands of ethnic minorities.

By this logic we should treat every US military intervention like it's going to be another Wounded Knee.

[Wallenburg]

Between Turkey murdering potentially hundreds of thousands of innocent people and a handful of US troops being at marginal risk, I'll take the latter option, yeah.

Look at the long-term consequences of US intervention. Where has it ever done good in the Middle East?

You don't need to tell me how shitty US empire-building has been for the middle east. I probably hold to that stance more than you do. Even so, I have the capacity for nuanced thought enough to distinguish between invading a country for oil or to win votes or to humiliate a geopolitical opponent, and maintaining a military presence to prevent a genocide and the resurgence of one of the worst Islamist terror organizations in history.

[Wallenburg]

The Turks didn't even rack up 100 000 killed within their own borders in 40 years against the PKK and that was when they gave even less of a shit about their international image, let alone in Rojava lmao.

Buddy, if Turkey cared about their international image, they'd stop pretending the Armenian genocide never happened.

[Nogodia]

Erdogan bad.
This isn't up for debate.

[Napkizemlja]

Not really...Turkey is against Assad, which means they're against Russia.

russia's more than willing to play both sides

I like how this article also points out that the Kurds are willing to do the same.

[Flawless Walruses]

Look at the long-term consequences of US intervention. Where has it ever done good in the Middle East?

You don't need to tell me how shitty US empire-building has been for the middle east. I probably hold to that stance more than you do. Even so, I have the capacity for nuanced thought enough to distinguish between invading a country for oil or to win votes or to humiliate a geopolitical opponent, and maintaining a military presence to prevent a genocide and the resurgence of one of the worst Islamist terror organizations in history.

Da'esh is on life support, and the intervention has become that life support. The presence of two thousand American boots keeps its ideology relevant and current. It also keeps the Pentagon's budget nicely bloated, and gives them options for mission creep.

Let the pious Sunni Arabs of northern Syria hate on the Turks for a change. Or better, give them back to Assad. The Turks and the Alawites live there, its their problem, and they're happy to deal with it.

[Napkizemlja]

I like how this article also points out that the Kurds are willing to do the same.

yep, that'll happen when your ally pulls out and you're left to fend for yourself.

No, they've been doing it for awhile by allying with Assad in a number of instances despite the US's stated opposition to the Assad regime. It even pointed out that they joined Assad's forces in the Battle of Aleppo.

I'm sure this quagmire is something that America should have continued to involve itself in for years to come though.

[Napkizemlja]

I like how this article also points out that the Kurds are willing to do the same.

No duh. They want freedom. We could have given them it-WE WERE RIGHT THERE FFS-but no we betrayed them. That's cold-blooded-how is anyone supposed to trust us now?

America wasn't going to be able to secure Rojava freedom.

[Nakena]

No duh. They want freedom. We could have given them it-WE WERE RIGHT THERE FFS-but no we betrayed them. That's cold-blooded-how is anyone supposed to trust us now?

America wasn't going to be able to secure Rojava freedom.

In the long run they would have been squeezed anyway.

[Wallenburg]

yep, that'll happen when your ally pulls out and you're left to fend for yourself.

No, they've been doing it for awhile by allying with Assad in a number of instances despite the US's stated opposition to the Assad regime. It even pointed out that they joined Assad's forces in the Battle of Aleppo.

I'm sure this quagmire is something that America should have continued to involve itself in for years to come though.

Yes, how horrible. Just appalling how the Kurds and the Syrian government decided they would be better off not fighting each other for a while and fighting ISIS instead.

[Napkizemlja]

Imagine if the YPG hadn't decided to hitch themselves to the PKK and instead taken the Peshmerga approach - this whole thing could have been avoided.