Right-Wing Discussion Thread XVIII: Hyena Central Command 憶ラ

[Cappuccina]

Also...fertility?

If you say something silly, I just want you to know my eyes are ready to roll.

When does he not say something silly?

[Salus Maior]

I probably would exempt parents and the disabled from service entirely.

At least outside of dire need.

It's a good way to fix the birth rate issues :^)

....Making parents do jobs* in addition to being parents, rather than dedicating themselves to parenting entirely, would help the birth rates?

*Jobs outside of what they're already doing to support their family.

[Turbofolkia]

I'd tax people according to the risk factors. We can do that with a sin tax or through a direct health-based tax. We could also provide subsidies or incentives to practice fitness and exercise and could revitalize those programs in schools.

In all honesty, ban high fructose corn syrup.

Why do Americans do this? Just sweeten your foods with beetroot or sugar cane like civilised people do.

Not so long ago I bought a bottle of soda water that was imported from the USA. It was only after I noticed that my gin and tonic tasted rather too sweet that I read the contents of the bottle and saw there was corn syrup added into the water.

Apparently Americans put additives in the water.

The fucking water.

Jesus Christ. It’s shit like this that makes me think that maybe we’ll be better off under a Chinese or Russian dominated world.

[The East Marches II]

It's a good way to fix the birth rate issues :^)

....Making parents do jobs* in addition to being parents, rather than dedicating themselves to parenting entirely, would help the birth rates?

*Jobs outside of what they're already doing to support their family.

They would have kids to escape conscription. Kids are your ticket out

[Salus Maior]

....Making parents do jobs* in addition to being parents, rather than dedicating themselves to parenting entirely, would help the birth rates?

*Jobs outside of what they're already doing to support their family.

They would have kids to escape conscription. Kids are your ticket out

Well, which is why I denoted "outside of dire need". In a desperate situation I would say that wouldn't exempt you.

I'm more talking about the idea of non-military service that's also floating around. I'd consider family it's own service to the country, therefore it would exempt them from civil service.

Civil service would do more good for young single people anyway.

[The East Marches II]

They would have kids to escape conscription. Kids are your ticket out

Well, which is why I denoted "outside of dire need". In a desperate situation I would say that wouldn't exempt you.

I'm more talking about the idea of non-military service that's also floating around. I'd consider family it's own service to the country, therefore it would exempt them from civil service.

Civil service would do more good for young single people anyway.

It'd still have a positive effect tbh and achieve the goal.

[Salus Maior]

Well, which is why I denoted "outside of dire need". In a desperate situation I would say that wouldn't exempt you.

I'm more talking about the idea of non-military service that's also floating around. I'd consider family it's own service to the country, therefore it would exempt them from civil service.

Civil service would do more good for young single people anyway.

It'd still have a positive effect tbh and achieve the goal.

Eh, true.

Wouldn't get them out of doing work either way.

[Kowani]

Both of those countries have valid, immediately obvious reasons for conscripts. The US does not.

We face a two front world war with an enemy power set to eclipse our naval strength by 2035. One of those fronts, our so called allies are worthless. Also we face manpower shortages.

The situation is dire enough as is.

You see the words immediately obvious? Most people aren’t thinking that far ahead. I’d be surprised if politicians were thinking that far ahead. The thing about conscription is that it doesn’t really work socially unless you’re already in a war or have the threats right at your door. Whether or not it’s a good idea doesn’t mean it can be done.

No, but Novus’ post certainly did.

I hear this often- “young people are undisciplined, coddled, naive”- repeat ad nauseam. And yet the proposed solution is to try and mold skills for the world of yesterday. That’s great-if you’re trying to solve the problems of yesterday. And some of these skills are still useful (although I suspect you and I have a different definition of discipline). But overall- a conscript service, even a non-military one, is going to generate certain mindsets that are liabilities in the 21st century. It has some benefits (at least, from your perspective), sure. Increased sense of community, civic duty, and I’m sure I’m missing something else.

See my post on young men checking out.

You wouldn’t happen to have a link? ‘Cause you’ve got a lot of posts.

Society can't continue as is.

Nah. The capitalist structure makes sure of that.

We do, namely we face an immediate threat that has us out outnumbered in persons 4 to 1.

You do realize that China would still outnumber the US regardless.

Plus a society breaking at the seams from tribal identity politics,

Often politics with legitimate grievances behind them. Blacks, rural whites, Latinos, etc-identity politics happens because there are certain trends that effect demographic subgroups harshly, and that’s not going to be addressed with conscription.

poor health,

So we provide free healthcare, and we stop subsidizing the junk food and meat industries. Properly regulate their advertising to children, subsidize healthy food, provide parks and recreation centres.

lack of social interaction, a failing sense of common identity and civic virtues.

These ones, you actually have a point.

Yeah we have they need more than any. And Singapore does it more for the value of uniting a diverse society than military need. We need it just as much as they do for that purpose.

Singapore also has public housing with racial quotas, a national education system, and two different hate speech laws. Just taking national services won’t work.

[Fahran]

A national service does not automatically imply military service.

No, but Novus’ post certainly did.

I think having a socially acceptable alternative to going immediately into the market, trade school, or college would be beneficial in grounding a lot of young people, giving them some discipline and real-world experience, and teaching them particular skills.

I hear this often- “young people are undisciplined, coddled, naive”- repeat ad nauseam. And yet the proposed solution is to try and mold skills for the world of yesterday. That’s great-if you’re trying to solve the problems of yesterday. And some of these skills are still useful (although I suspect you and I have a different definition of discipline). But overall- a conscript service, even a non-military one, is going to generate certain mindsets that are liabilities in the 21st century. It has some benefits (at least, from your perspective), sure. Increased sense of community, civic duty, and I’m sure I’m missing something else.

The increased sense of community, civic duty, responsibility, and compassion is one of the principal benefits. We're becoming more and more detached from one another and we've begun treating education and service merely as a means by which we can become employees. We hardly ever consider in public institutions how we can become citizens and actualized persons. We barely even teach civics these days. We have a single half-semester of government classes in most high schools.

[Chernoslavia]

Gonna have to disagree with you on the conscription part. We were able to have a well trained and capable military because of being a voluntary force.

Well we would not have to conscript just everyone. We could be selective. Also the value of conscription is not really as much for simple military purposes but greater societal benefits.

Also Singapore and Israel maintain well trained and capable militaries with conscription.

I dunno, some people just want nothing to do with the military.

[The East Marches II]

You see the words immediately obvious? Most people aren’t thinking that far ahead. I’d be surprised if politicians were thinking that far ahead. The thing about conscription is that it doesn’t really work socially unless you’re already in a war or have the threats right at your door. Whether or not it’s a good idea doesn’t mean it can be done.

Yes it is immediately obvious to anyone looking at a map and force strength what dire straights we are in. Our obligations are so spanning that a general war of such a size could break out over the littlest thing. It is another Cold War. Alas, we suffer a deficit of leadership and talent. Democracy succeeds again :^)

You wouldn’t happen to have a link? ‘Cause you’ve got a lot of posts.

I will repost it here incase anybody missed it.

Oh no, looks like you built a society the lads don't want to join in. I wonder whether they will make being single a punitive tax situation again ala the Romans when they had that issue to make men try to do more. Both articles are older but the first one was sent to me by a friend earlier today. It seems the revolution in gender didn't quite work out the way we expected.

Men are simply not doing what they used to for society also. I expect that problem to get worse and for more younger men to simply check out. This will impact us later as they won't make enough money to be worth taxing later in life when their income should have peaked, and by not having a family, not be as incentive to make more money in order which would be taxed to pay for said welfare systems. By not having a family, the state can't support its programs without new people to tax. Not to mention the myriad of other things which will decline such as volunteer labor, the blood example I posted and community participation.

I'm not sure at this stage, the situation can really be saved until we start seeing its disastrous fiscal outcome later in life. We were told in the 2000s, that people were just "putting off" getting married and having kids. Its been about 10-15 years. We're still waiting and at this point, given the way fertility works, it is too late for many. Women use more healthcare resources as a norm and they do not pay the same lifetime amounts as men in net taxes (few end up being net).

We've clearly broken something very important in our civilization but the general response seems to be scolding men for not stepping up to the plate rather than anything constructive. What say you RWDT? What would you do to save the situation?

Nah. The capitalist structure makes sure of that.

One questions whether you have thought that statement through.

[Kowani]

The increased sense of community, civic duty, responsibility, and compassion is one of the principal benefits.

I can see how conscription, even if non-military would increase the first three. I can actually see the benefits of those. I don’t see how it would teach compassion.

We're becoming more and more detached from one another

Several culprits for that. Firstly, an economic structure that encourages people to move, often extremely large distances, in order to get a better job. Secondly, that same economic structure for increasing the amount of time needed to work, and the amount of people that need to work, in order to maintain a standard of living.
and we've begun treating education and service merely as a means by which we can become employees[/quote]You realize that’s been a constant in every education system ever. Don’t say “we’ve begun” when this is not a new trend.

We hardly ever consider in public institutions how we can become citizens and actualized persons. We barely even teach civics these days. We have a single half-semester of government classes in most high schools.

I know, I’m taking it next semestre. (Although it should be noted that any halfway decent US History, and especially APUSH class will at least delve into the basics) But there’s a reason for that-time is limited. The system is broken-CollegeBoard has far too much influence over the process to move kids onto the next stage of higher education, and so schools must play by their rules. It’s all about incentives.

[The East Marches II]

I can see how conscription, even if non-military would increase the first three. I can actually see the benefits of those. I don’t see how it would teach compassion.

Have you not played team sports before?

[United Muscovite Nations]

Conscription won't solve the fundamental problems in our current social organization. Our institutions fundamentally are designed to maximize profit rather than create social connections between people, and this cannot be resolved just by sending every 18 year old man to the army.

[Novus America]

Well we would not have to conscript just everyone. We could be selective. Also the value of conscription is not really as much for simple military purposes but greater societal benefits.

Also Singapore and Israel maintain well trained and capable militaries with conscription.

I dunno, some people just want nothing to do with the military.

Right, which is why we can have alternative service of some type for them.

[Telconi]

I dunno, some people just want nothing to do with the military.

Right, which is why we can have alternative service of some type for them.

Or we could not forcibly enslave people for no good reason.

[Kowani]

You see the words immediately obvious? Most people aren’t thinking that far ahead. I’d be surprised if politicians were thinking that far ahead. The thing about conscription is that it doesn’t really work socially unless you’re already in a war or have the threats right at your door. Whether or not it’s a good idea doesn’t mean it can be done.

Yes it is immediately obvious to anyone looking at a map and force strength what dire straights we are in.

Yes, that thing most people do. Just analyze relative military strengths.

Our obligations are so spanning that a general war of such a size could break out over the littlest thing. It is another Cold War. Alas, we suffer a deficit of leadership and talent. Democracy succeeds again :^)

We head this often. And yet, I doubt it’s veracity. The US is China’s largest export market. Furthermore, they import a metric fuckton of food from America. Until these two things are resolved, particularly the latter, China literally can’t afford to go to war with America-an army marches on its stomach. The only other country with a comparable contribution is France, and the only reason they have a contribution of that size is the Trade War. Don’t negate soft power.

You wouldn’t happen to have a link? ‘Cause you’ve got a lot of posts.

I will repost it here incase anybody missed it.

Thank you.

Oh no, looks like you built a society the lads don't want to join in. I wonder whether they will make being single a punitive tax situation again ala the Romans when they had that issue to make men try to do more. Both articles are older but the first one was sent to me by a friend earlier today. It seems the revolution in gender didn't quite work out the way we expected.

Ah, a transition period in which traditional views on masculinity aren’t connective with reality? No wonder there’s a problem. But here’s the issue-those jobs that men used as signifiers of their identity, the traditional arrangements-those aren’t coming back. Manufacturing, mining, whatever the industry is-the traditional masculine jobs aren’t coming back. Market forces prevent that. Trying to cling to the slowly dying status quo isn’t going to change that-you can’t compete. Well-paying jobs that provide community can’t compete with robots and underpaid third-world laborers. The game has changed, and the old ways aren’t coming back.

Men are simply not doing what they used to for society also.

A note-it is never explained why there is an increase in female donors. It’s never even said if it’s a decrease in men or an increase in women, just a “widening gender imbalance.”

I expect that problem to get worse and for more younger men to simply check out. This will impact us later as they won't make enough money to be worth taxing later in life when their income should have peaked, and by not having a family, not be as incentive to make more money in order which would be taxed to pay for said welfare systems. By not having a family, the state can't support its programs without new people to tax.

This is not how taxes work. Fertility rates are a problem, but they’re dropping everywhere on the planet, so clearly, the problem is not just a culture that hates men.

Not to mention the myriad of other things which will decline such as volunteer labor,

An actual problem for once.

the blood example I posted

So we use artificial blood. We’re already partway there.

and community participation.

I think we’ll see more different forms of community participation, moreso than an marked decline.

One questions whether you have thought that statement through.

I was agreeing with you that the current system could not hold. I was disagreeing on the cause.

[Novus America]

And I would have alternative service available for conscientious objectors, the severely disabled, and those with certain skills, plus parents.

I probably would exempt parents and the disabled from service entirely.

At least outside of dire need.

For parents I might have greatly reduced service, say they only have to do some part time community service, but things like say being on the PTA would count. But yeah I would definitely go easy on them because raising a child alone is service enough really.

Disabled it depends. Say a computer genius in a wheelchair could have potential in a civilian government job. It would depend on the nature of their disability.

[Fahran]

I can see how conscription, even if non-military would increase the first three. I can actually see the benefits of those. I don’t see how it would teach compassion.

If you could perform certain types of service without feeling compassion and emotion, I'd be surprised and deeply disturbed. I've volunteered at assisted living centers, animal shelters, soup kitchens, cleaning up parks and roads, hospital wards, and a few other places. I think some of those experiences really force you to feel other people's humanity and to look at the world beyond your own immediate concerns. I know those aren't the only sorts of things people would do in national service but they'd definitely be options from time to time, and, in fact, we already ask many of our elite students to do stuff like that in high school and at university. I'm merely advising that we democratize and energize those existing programs.

Several culprits for that. Firstly, an economic structure that encourages people to move, often extremely large distances, in order to get a better job. Secondly, that same economic structure for increasing the amount of time needed to work, and the amount of people that need to work, in order to maintain a standard of living.

Neoliberalism, while problematic, isn't the sole cause. We've undermined a great many of the institutions and conventions that served as cornerstones of the community in past decades. And our progressive colleagues have assured us repeatedly that we'd face no consequences if we went along with it. There's a lot that needs to change.

You realize that’s been a constant in every education system ever. Don’t say “we’ve begun” when this is not a new trend.

Except that we have. We've put such a high premium on degrees and certifications that employers often demand that you be over-qualified for a position as a glorified secretary or junior accountant. It's largely the result of social pressure that has driven vast swathes of the population into colleges and universities with no advice or reason beyond "this'll help you get a job." We've made that extra four years necessary for anyone who isn't going to be a peon or a blue-collar worker. And for most of them it isn't preparing them for the jobs they'll wind up doing.

I know, I’m taking it next semestre. (Although it should be noted that any halfway decent US History, and especially APUSH class will at least delve into the basics) But there’s a reason for that-time is limited. The system is broken-CollegeBoard has far too much influence over the process to move kids onto the next stage of higher education, and so schools must play by their rules. It’s all about incentives.

We need to reform primary education before even countenancing reforms beyond that level.

[United Muscovite Nations]

There are a million different reasons (hyperbole, obviously) leading to the social situation we see today that conscription and national service would only be a bandaid for. We need to totally reorganize society in a holistic way. For one, we need to start treating problems facing only individuals as social problems rather than simply trying to therapy and drug them away. It's not just a matter of some small issue or even undermining of social institutions. Something has caused the total collapse of interconnectedness, and we can't rebuild it without making dramatic changes in how we live our lives.

[Novus America]

We face a two front world war with an enemy power set to eclipse our naval strength by 2035. One of those fronts, our so called allies are worthless. Also we face manpower shortages.

The situation is dire enough as is.

You see the words immediately obvious? Most people aren’t thinking that far ahead. I’d be surprised if politicians were thinking that far ahead. The thing about conscription is that it doesn’t really work socially unless you’re already in a war or have the threats right at your door. Whether or not it’s a good idea doesn’t mean it can be done.

See my post on young men checking out.

You wouldn’t happen to have a link? ‘Cause you’ve got a lot of posts.

Society can't continue as is.

Nah. The capitalist structure makes sure of that.

We do, namely we face an immediate threat that has us out outnumbered in persons 4 to 1.

You do realize that China would still outnumber the US regardless.

Plus a society breaking at the seams from tribal identity politics,

Often politics with legitimate grievances behind them. Blacks, rural whites, Latinos, etc-identity politics happens because there are certain trends that effect demographic subgroups harshly, and that’s not going to be addressed with conscription.

poor health,

So we provide free healthcare, and we stop subsidizing the junk food and meat industries. Properly regulate their advertising to children, subsidize healthy food, provide parks and recreation centres.

lack of social interaction, a failing sense of common identity and civic virtues.

These ones, you actually have a point.

Yeah we have they need more than any. And Singapore does it more for the value of uniting a diverse society than military need. We need it just as much as they do for that purpose.

Singapore also has public housing with racial quotas, a national education system, and two different hate speech laws. Just taking national services won’t work.

Sure the PRC would still outnumber us but it would make it easier to massively expand our Navy and Air Force, something we desperately need to do.

I agree it would be politically difficult to implement although building a comprehensive system of national service (with non military options) that is voluntary at first, but slowly making certain benefits dependent on doing might make it possible to sneak in.

National service, especially military can help break down racial and social barriers as well.

The other things you mention like better healthcare, better recreation facilities, better education, housing subsidies etc. and national service are not mutually exclusive, but complementary.
So just because those other things would help does not detract from the need for national service.

[The East Marches II]

Yes, that thing most people do. Just analyze relative military strengths.

What an excellent argument against your own preoccupation with democracy. Spending, foreign policy and troop numbers come up every election.

We head this often. And yet, I doubt it’s veracity. The US is China’s largest export market. Furthermore, they import a metric fuckton of food from America. Until these two things are resolved, particularly the latter, China literally can’t afford to go to war with America-an army marches on its stomach. The only other country with a comparable contribution is France, and the only reason they have a contribution of that size is the Trade War. Don’t negate soft power.

That soft power thing sure saved Hong Kong didn't it? Soft power is meaningless without the actual hard power to back it up. Otherwise they will just take your nice things and move on. Our myopic and retarded State Department tried the route you just recommended for the last 20 years. It failed miserably.

If our leadership was so great, how come we blew a couple trillion dollars on people who can't grasp democracy much less make it function? That seems a fools task. Even more when we saw it didn't work and kept putting good money after bad.

Our leadership is the definition of insanity really.

Ah, a transition period in which traditional views on masculinity aren’t connective with reality? No wonder there’s a problem. But here’s the issue-those jobs that men used as signifiers of their identity, the traditional arrangements-those aren’t coming back. Manufacturing, mining, whatever the industry is-the traditional masculine jobs aren’t coming back. Market forces prevent that. Trying to cling to the slowly dying status quo isn’t going to change that-you can’t compete. Well-paying jobs that provide community can’t compete with robots and underpaid third-world laborers. The game has changed, and the old ways aren’t coming back.

You don't disagree with my statement then on what we've constructed?

It isn't just men who face the issue, it is women who absolutely refuse to marry a man who makes less than them. Even those much vaunted feminist ones.

Infact, university and education is now wholly slanted towards women. We are told this a sign of #progress and #equality. Even as young women make more than young men now. This has traditionally reversed as men get families and settle down. This is not occuring. There is no reason to believe the reversal trend shall continue with the break down of the relationship system, birth rates or even having sex.

How wonderful the modern world is, your brave New world has done what the Puritans couldn't, it stopped people fucking.

A note-it is never explained why there is an increase in female donors. It’s never even said if it’s a decrease in men or an increase in women, just a “widening gender imbalance.”

The number of men giving blood has dropped by 24.8% over the past five years in England, while the number of women giving blood has fallen by 6%

This is not how taxes work. Fertility rates are a problem, but they’re dropping everywhere on the planet, so clearly, the problem is not just a culture that hates men.

That is how taxes and taxation work for the welfare state. It's a pyramid scheme at it's heart. I understand you subscribe to crank theories but suggesting that a population decline and lack of income growth won't impact the state is beyond the pale for even the most ardent of the heterodox economics types.

Edit: yes it isn't just a culture issue, we also can't filter out all the effects from birth control in the water, BPAs and men wearing too warm clothing and killing sperm.

So we use artificial blood. We’re already partway there.

Another expense a state that will have a shrinking tax base will have to suplort.

I think we’ll see more different forms of community participation, moreso than an marked decline.

Social capital is at an all time low and keeps decreasing outside of areas with a lucky confluence of historical factors.

They have been promising what you just said for a decade. It hasn't shown up.

I was agreeing with you that the current system could not hold. I was disagreeing on the cause.

Yes, which is why I made my comment.

Edits for formatting aids.

[Novus America]

Conscription won't solve the fundamental problems in our current social organization. Our institutions fundamentally are designed to maximize profit rather than create social connections between people, and this cannot be resolved just by sending every 18 year old man to the army.

The military and civil service do not try to maximize profits.

[Xuloqoia]

> A system that stops people from fucking

/sarcasm

[United Muscovite Nations]

Conscription won't solve the fundamental problems in our current social organization. Our institutions fundamentally are designed to maximize profit rather than create social connections between people, and this cannot be resolved just by sending every 18 year old man to the army.

The military and civil service do not try to maximize profits.

Civil service absolutely tries to maximize profits by creating a free labor force. It's not designed to fix the problems of social connectivity, and even if it were, it would be entirely inadequate.