Right-Wing Discussion Thread XVIII: Hyena Central Command 憶ラ

[Salus Maior]

I can say this the first time we have ever discussed the motivation of modern-day terrorists on RWDT. Yet I will say the media's obsession with bait for clicks is partly if not fully responsible for giving enough reason for people to act on their darkest thoughts.

Agreed.

[The Hobbesian Metaphysician]

France, America, Britain, and Nordic countries are in crappy situations?

I'm not just talking about Islamic terror.

And they’ve all achieved their goals of…killing innocent people?
Not great, but not exactly peak effectiveness.

At least in the United States, the media definitely plays a role in encouraging such attitudes.

[Nakena]

And they’ve all achieved their goals of…killing innocent people?
Not great, but not exactly peak effectiveness.

At least in the United States, the media definitely plays a role in encouraging such attitudes.

Fuelling a cycle of public mass hysteria.

[Totally Not OEP]

The thing is, Nap, I'm not acting like or denying that it wouldn't've made a difference to the Allied war effort. My point is, though, that, if Vladivostok happened to fall into IJA hands, while it would've been disruptive to the Soviet war effort, perhaps harshly so against them (but not fatally so), there's more than plenty that the Allies could've done to fix that situation and turn things back around. The United States could've relatively easily launched a seaborne operation to retake Vladivostok, or more simply deployed troops behind Soviet lines in FER and mounted an offensive from there. The Kwantung Army simply wouldn't've been able to hold out against that; the planners themselves knew that an operation to take Vladivostok would require the reallocation of divisions from both the home islands and China, which they knew would be a fatal blow to their own war efforts in China and thus open up the serious possibility of a Chinese counterattack into Manchuria being coordinated with the USSR and possibly the USA and other Allied powers if they were involved - assuming Vladivostok had fallen - which would likely mean total destruction of the Kwantung Army. In the meantime, the other, active supply routes could've been reformed to focus predominantly if not entirely on food, industrial supplies, and oil for the Soviets, rather than those three things plus vehicles, weapons, etc. It would've hurt the Soviets, but it wouldn't've ended them; Nazi momentum was lost by the winter of 1941 and the frontlines were heavily overextended, and they only made piecemeal gains afterward. In all likelihood, the USSR would've been able to hold the line as it did in OTL - just at a greater cost because of the reduction in supplies - because of that and the fact that the Nazis were severely struggling to fix their own supply issues that included trains constantly being blown up and rear echelons being attacked and killed by partisans. Maybe the USSR wouldn't've been able to conduct counteroffensives, certainly not on the timetables it did IRL, but they'd certainly be able to hold the line while the situation in and around Vladivostok was unfucked.

Basically, suggesting the Axis could've won all of World War Two by doing this one cool trick that every 1 out of 8 Soviet leaders hates by taking over one singular city is absolutely ridiculous fantasy of the highest degree. And, funnily enough, it's what a lot of OEP's "muh superior Axis victory" scenarios hinge on.

What I find hilarious about all of this is your insistence to continually assert that which others have not said, case in point being the claim the IJA had to take "just one city", as well as your assertions about American countermeasures and that concerning IJA deployments. Just to reiterate:

1. The China Expeditionary Force was a separate force from the Kwantung Army, and there was no plans to draw upon it for the operation. Why you continue to insist upon this point alludes me, beyond your bizarre Ben Shapiro-like fixation to "own the rightists".
2. Your own source outlines how weakened the Soviet forces in the region had become by 1941 while conversely the Japanese had been strengthened. There is absolutely nothing to support the notion they would've been destroyed attack the Soviet Far East. Even ignoring that, you continue to sidestep the issue that the IJN could simply block shipping through the region; in such a case there is no reason for the the IJA to even launch the offensive in the first place.
3. Once again, there were no Allied counter-measures to be had. The Soviet Northern Route and Persian Route were already expanded historically in terms of capabilities and still lagged behind the Pacific Route.
4. The U.S. looked at doing a Northern offensive in 1943-1944 and found it would take six months to a year just to support a 200,000 man Army Group to clear out the Kuril Islands by themselves. Further, to do this would mean stripping the Central and Southwest Pacific forces of their naval shipping, in other words compromising those offensives. 200,000 Americans and their associated logistics in 1943 means Sicily becomes impossible.

Finally, and just because you seem bound and determined to avoid it:



It doesn't escape my notice you talked about trucks and such but conveniently left out the matter of food because that proves me completely right. By the time the Allies could build up alternative port capacity or do some sort of offensive as you propose (They couldn't), the Red Army would've starved to death. That's why you're sidestepping and repeating the same tired claims, because it absolutely burns you up inside to know I'm right on this and you can refute me.

[Nea Byzantia]

(Image)

Depends on who they're fighting...Hope its not some Greek Partisans.

[Xuloqoia]

(Image)

Depends on who they're fighting...Hope its not some Greek Partisans.

What do you mean by "Depends on who they're fighting"? They're the Wehrmacht, dude!

[Nea Byzantia]

Depends on who they're fighting...Hope its not some Greek Partisans.

What do you mean by "Depends on who they're fighting"? They're the Wehrmacht, dude!

Well, if they're fighting the Red Army; its less bad, I suppose...

[Xuloqoia]

What do you mean by "Depends on who they're fighting"? They're the Wehrmacht, dude!

Well, if they're fighting the Red Army; its less bad, I suppose...

It's still the Wehrmacht, though. Like, you shouldn't be getting warm and fuzzy feelings from the Wehrmacht. Does that make any sense whatsoever?

[Nea Byzantia]

Well, if they're fighting the Red Army; its less bad, I suppose...

It's still the Wehrmacht, though. Like, you shouldn't be getting warm and fuzzy feelings from the Wehrmacht. Does that make any sense whatsoever?

I never said I got warm, fuzzy feelings from them...I'm not a Brownshirt.

[Xuloqoia]

It's still the Wehrmacht, though. Like, you shouldn't be getting warm and fuzzy feelings from the Wehrmacht. Does that make any sense whatsoever?

I never said I got warm, fuzzy feelings from them...I'm not a Brownshirt.

Then I suppose I misinterpreted you; my apologies.

[Loben The 2nd]

(Image)

Great.

[Xuloqoia]

(Image)

Great.

And why is that?

[Loben The 2nd]

Great.

And why is that?

Communist material being destroyed in detail.

[Xuloqoia]

And why is that?

Communist material being destroyed in detail.

By the Wehrmacht...

[Loben The 2nd]

Communist material being destroyed in detail.

By the Wehrmacht...

Und doch?

[Xuloqoia]

By the Wehrmacht...

Und doch?

What do you mean? Are you implying that your hatred for the Reds is so strong that you find the Wehrmacht to be preferable? Because if that is the case then I must disagree; while I am no lover of either Marxist-Leninism or National Socialism, if I had to make a choice (and there were no alternatives) then I suppose better a Red than a Nazi.

[Loben The 2nd]

Und doch?

What do you mean? Are you implying that your hatred for the Reds is so strong that you find the Wehrmacht to be preferable? Because if that is the case then I must disagree; while I am no lover of either Marxist-Leninism or National Socialism, if I had to make a choice (and there were no alternatives) then I suppose better a Red than a Nazi.

Yes

[Xuloqoia]

What do you mean? Are you implying that your hatred for the Reds is so strong that you find the Wehrmacht to be preferable? Because if that is the case then I must disagree; while I am no lover of either Marxist-Leninism or National Socialism, if I had to make a choice (and there were no alternatives) then I suppose better a Red than a Nazi.

Yes

Ah. I suppose that's one of the places where our thoughts diverge. However, realistically if I was presented with a choice between Marxist-Leninism and National Socialism, there would be a third way available to me. I refer to suicide. As unpleasant as the option is, I agree with the Stoics on this one; it would be better to die with my conscience and dignity intact then to live and succumb to wickedness.

Does that make any sense? I recognize that it's a grim topic, but when your choices are between the Reds and the Nazis, I choose neither.

[Xuloqoia]

Y'know, the question of suicide is one where I diverge from my largely-Kantian ethical framework somewhat. I suppose that my view on it is that in most cases, suicide is a gross violation of one's obligations, but there are a few specific circumstances (such as the aforementioned "choice" between two great evils) in which suicide, while not good per se, is morally permissible.

[Torrocca]

Yes

Ah. I suppose that's one of the places where our thoughts diverge. However, realistically if I was presented with a choice between Marxist-Leninism and National Socialism, there would be a third way available to me. I refer to suicide. As unpleasant as the option is, I agree with the Stoics on this one; it would be better to die with my conscience and dignity intact then to live and succumb to wickedness.

Does that make any sense? I recognize that it's a grim topic, but when your choices are between the Reds and the Nazis, I choose neither.

Nah, dude, standing against Nazi tyranny is always the best option hands-down. Better to die fighting against agents of genocide than to do nothing to stop them.

[Nea Byzantia]

Ah. I suppose that's one of the places where our thoughts diverge. However, realistically if I was presented with a choice between Marxist-Leninism and National Socialism, there would be a third way available to me. I refer to suicide. As unpleasant as the option is, I agree with the Stoics on this one; it would be better to die with my conscience and dignity intact then to live and succumb to wickedness.

Does that make any sense? I recognize that it's a grim topic, but when your choices are between the Reds and the Nazis, I choose neither.

Nah, dude, standing against Nazi tyranny is always the best option hands-down. Better to die fighting against agents of genocide than to do nothing to stop them.

Agreed. Which is why we cannot neglect the fight against Bolshevik tyranny, either...

[Hanafuridake]

Nah, dude, standing against Nazi tyranny is always the best option hands-down. Better to die fighting against agents of genocide than to do nothing to stop them.

Agreed. Which is why we cannot neglect the fight against Bolshevik tyranny, either...

The Nazis didn't fight against Bolshevik tyranny, they fought to impose an even worse tyranny.

[Nea Byzantia]

Agreed. Which is why we cannot neglect the fight against Bolshevik tyranny, either...

The Nazis didn't fight against Bolshevik tyranny, they fought to impose an even worse tyranny.

I wasn't defending the Nazis; I was just pointing out that Stalin wasn't any better (in fact, he was arguably worse).

[Hanafuridake]

The Nazis didn't fight against Bolshevik tyranny, they fought to impose an even worse tyranny.

I wasn't defending the Nazis; I was just pointing out that Stalin wasn't any better (in fact, he was arguably worse).

Arguably worse than exterminating the entire Eastern European population?

[Nea Byzantia]

I wasn't defending the Nazis; I was just pointing out that Stalin wasn't any better (in fact, he was arguably worse).

Arguably worse than exterminating the entire Eastern European population?