Right-Wing Discussion Thread XVIII: Hyena Central Command 憶ラ

[The New California Republic]

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Makes me want to put some colour film in my camera.

[Hanafuridake]

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Like the one time I'll ever root for Russia in a war.

[Torrocca]

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I love playing the, "Let's Love and Venerate History's Worst Monsters: Nazi Germany Edition" game! Here, let me add my bit of celebration:

[Totally Not OEP]

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I love playing the, "Let's Love and Venerate History's Worst Monsters: Nazi Germany Edition" game! Here, let me add my bit of celebration:

I knew that image would draw you out. I take it from the lack of response to that last post I made, you gave up?

[Nakena]

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It makes me think on the this intro.

[Torrocca]

I love playing the, "Let's Love and Venerate History's Worst Monsters: Nazi Germany Edition" game! Here, let me add my bit of celebration:

(Image)

I knew that image would draw you out. I take it from the lack of response to that last post I made, you gave up?

Shitting on your fantastical """ideas""" of your favorite Fascist empires winning World War Two - on account of the fact that they, reality-defying as they always are, have no debatable merit - is more fun than entertaining them in any serious notion.

[Totally Not OEP]

I knew that image would draw you out. I take it from the lack of response to that last post I made, you gave up?

Mocking your fantastical """ideas""" of your favorite Fascist empires winning World War Two - on account of the fact that they, reality-defying as they always are, have no debatable merit - is more fun than entertaining them in any serious notion.

A funny way of saying you were wrong.

[Torrocca]

Mocking your fantastical """ideas""" of your favorite Fascist empires winning World War Two - on account of the fact that they, reality-defying as they always are, have no debatable merit - is more fun than entertaining them in any serious notion.

A funny way of saying you were wrong.

Which is why the Axis won, amirite?

[Totally Not OEP]

A funny way of saying you were wrong.

Which is why the Axis won, amirite?

What is alternate history?

[Xuloqoia]

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Uncomfortable? I mean, from the looks of it they are Wehrmacht soldiers. Y'know, I've noticed a worrisome pattern where you seem to engage in thinly-veiled apologia for the Axis Powers. I can't tell if you have genuine sympathies for the Nazi regime, or if you're merely trying to get a rise out of folks like Torra, or if I'm merely misinterpreting things. Whatever the case may be, it's rather... troubling, perhaps?

[Nakena]

A funny way of saying you were wrong.

Which is why the Axis won, amirite?

Elements of it's spirit lived on in military-industrial complex and certain segments of the deep state (specifically the CIA etc) of the United States.

Some of it still do so.

[Torrocca]

Which is why the Axis won, amirite?

What is alternate history?

Utterly stupid, if that alt-history happens to require reality-bending things to happen to actually work. But I'm sure you already knew that, which is why you definitively don't make arguments that include defending Nazi Germany's production capabilities as superior to any of the Allies or assuming a completely flawed plan for seizing Vladivostok would've actually worked out in Imperial Japan's favor even though said plans included using the entire IJA and double the number of trucks than what the entire Imperial military actually had on an offensive against a numerically superior force in a strategically superior position that had the Japanese surrounded on three sides. Right?

[Torrocca]

(Image)

Uncomfortable? I mean, from the looks of it they are Wehrmacht soldiers. Y'know, I've noticed a worrisome pattern where you seem to engage in thinly-veiled apologia for the Axis Powers. I can't tell if you have genuine sympathies for the Nazi regime, or if you're merely trying to get a rise out of folks like Torra, or if I'm merely misinterpreting things. Whatever the case may be, it's rather... troubling, perhaps?

He's been doing this long before I've actually taken to arguing against these fantasies.

Notable things include him having a self-professed desire to fight and die for the Nazis on the Eastern Front and defending Nazi wartime production as superior even though all the major Allies objectively outcompeted them in practically every important category. Obviously, though, expending thousands of tonnes of critical steel resources to build unnecessarily huge battleships that end up doing nothing of value, one of which was indirectly killed by a wooden biplane hitting its rudder with a simple fucking bomb, is a true measure of Aryan supremacy over the degenerate subhuman Allies. Obviously. Totally not at all somehow being sarcastic here.

[Xuloqoia]

Uncomfortable? I mean, from the looks of it they are Wehrmacht soldiers. Y'know, I've noticed a worrisome pattern where you seem to engage in thinly-veiled apologia for the Axis Powers. I can't tell if you have genuine sympathies for the Nazi regime, or if you're merely trying to get a rise out of folks like Torra, or if I'm merely misinterpreting things. Whatever the case may be, it's rather... troubling, perhaps?

He's been doing this long before I've actually taken to arguing against these fantasies.

Notable things include him having a self-professed desire to fight and die for the Nazis on the Eastern Front and defending Nazi wartime production as superior even though all the major Allies objectively outcompeted them in practically every important category.

(Emphasis mine)

OEP, is that true? I vaguely remember it being the case, but I don't wish to rush to judgement without proper evidence. Does that make sense?

[Torrocca]

He's been doing this long before I've actually taken to arguing against these fantasies.

Notable things include him having a self-professed desire to fight and die for the Nazis on the Eastern Front and defending Nazi wartime production as superior even though all the major Allies objectively outcompeted them in practically every important category.

(Emphasis mine)

OEP, is that true? I vaguely remember it being the case, but I don't wish to rush to judgement without proper evidence. Does that make sense?

I'll spare you the digging. He claimed later in the thread it was just a joke but, y'know, given his propensity for talking about an Axis victory in WWII because they did [insert fantastical theory of the week here], and for just defending them in general, I very much doubt that claim.

[Totally Not OEP]

What is alternate history?

Utterly stupid, if that alt-history happens to require reality-bending things to happen to actually work. But I'm sure you already knew that, which is why you definitively don't make arguments that include defending Nazi Germany's production capabilities as superior to any of the Allies or assuming a completely flawed plan for seizing Vladivostok would've actually worked out in Imperial Japan's favor even though said plans included using the entire IJA and double the number of trucks than what the entire Imperial military actually had on an offensive against a numerically superior force in a strategically superior position that had the Japanese surrounded on three sides. Right?

I didn't assume any reality bending, as I laid out a plausible scenario with the divergence being Japan carried out the offensive it had been planning against the Soviets for years and continued to do so actively until 1944. If you'll recall, the stipulation was that Japan needed only to shut off shipping to the Russian Far East, which the Imperial Japanese Navy alone could do without the involvement of the Kwantung Army.

Finally, let's be honest here; you lifted all of your quotes off the Wikipedia article on Kantokuen. Unfortunately for you, I know who wrote that article and that's also how I know you just stopped when you read the basic numbers for 1941 without reading on. Allow me to show you what you left out, either through pure laziness or deliberately because you just can't stand to admit it when you know I'm right:

Soviet forces in the Far East were dispersed over a vast arc from Mongolia to Vladivostok. Without the ability to capitalize on this deployment by striking deep into Manchuria from multiple axes, their strength would be fatally diluted and prone to piecemeal destruction at the hands of the Japanese, who could maneuver freely on their interior lines, concentrating their power at will while the immobile Red Army was fixed in place.[135] The only saving grace for the Soviets was that the remoteness of the Far East from European Russia meant that Japan alone could never hope to deal a mortal blow to the USSR, for which the former would be reliant on Germany.[136]

Organizationally, although Soviet forces in the Far East on paper amounted to some 32 division-equivalents by December 1941,[137] they were regarded as only barely sufficient for defensive operations. Compared to a typical Japanese division, pre-war Red Army units possessed slightly less manpower, but had greater access to long-range, higher caliber artillery. After the German invasion, however, the Red Army was reorganized so that each division had scarcely half the manpower and a fraction of the firepower of either its German or Japanese counterpart. Hence, to achieve superiority on the battlefield the Soviets would have to concentrate several divisions to counter each of the opponent's.[138]

Lastly, the quality of both personnel and equipment in the respective armies cannot be ignored. As the Soviets drained their best, most well-trained divisions to fight in the west, the overall standard of the forces in the east correspondingly diminished, forcing the STAVKA to rely more heavily on its fortified regions in defensive operations.[149] Meanwhile, the Kwantung Army opposite them then constituted "the cream of the entire Japanese armed forces,"[150] and was receiving reinforcements by the day. A large proportion of its units were elite Type A divisions,[r] many of which had seen extensive service in China. The quality of the Japanese officer corps was also very high, as many figures who would go on to have notable careers in the Pacific War including Tomoyuki Yamashita (head of the Kwantung Defense Command and later First Area Army), Isamu Yokoyama (1st Division, later 4th Army), Mitsuru Ushijima (11th Division),[152] and Tadamichi Kuribayashi (1st Cavalry Brigade, Mongolia Garrison Army)[153] held commands there. While both sides primarily relied on bolt-action rifles and light automatic weapons as the backbone of the infantry, Japanese artillery often found itself outranged by the heavy Soviet guns at Khalkhin Gol, to the point where the IJA felt compelled to move their 15 cm howitzers closer to the front in order to bring them to bear, even at the expense of cover.[154] Even though the Japanese managed to disable a considerable number of Soviet guns through counterbattery fire,[155] their lack of range at extreme distances and shortage of ammunition left them at a distinct disadvantage against the Red Army.[156]

Tanks presented a mixed picture as well: although the most modern machine available to the Kwantung Army in 1941, the Type 97 Chi-Ha, had thicker armor (up to 33 mm)[157] compared to the Soviet BT and T-26, its low-velocity 57 mm gun common to medium tanks of the era was outmatched by the long-barreled 45 mm weapons mounted on its opposite numbers, while the 37 mm gun used on the Ha-Go and Te-Ke had an effective range of less than a kilometer.[158] In general, while the "handcrafted, beautifully polished" Japanese tanks were more survivable thanks to their diesel engines (the gasoline powerplants used by the Russians were especially fireprone[159]), their lesser numbers meant that each loss was more damaging to the IJA than each destroyed "crudely finished," "expendable" BT or T-26 was to the Red Army.[160] During the only pitched armored engagement at Khalkhin Gol (the Yasuoka Group's attack in July), the Japanese saw 42 out of their 73 tanks[161] disabled whereas the Soviet-Mongol side lost over 77 tanks and 45 armored cars out of the more than 133 and 59 committed, respectively.[162][s] The balance in the air would have been strongly in favor of the Japanese. Although the most modern fighter in the Soviet Air Force arsenal available in the Far East, the Polikarpov I-16, was a firm opponent of the Nakajima Ki-27,[163][t] the majority of planes in-theater were considerably older. Furthermore, the Soviets had no answer to either the Mitsubishi A6M, which had been fighting in China since 1940,[164] or the high-speed Ki-21 bomber, which could fly faster and farther than its contemporary, the SB-2.[165][166] Japanese pilots were also highly experienced, with IJNAS airmen averaging roughly 700 hours of flight time by late 1941, and IJAAF aviators averaging 500. Many of these fliers had already tasted combat against China or the VVS in previous battles.[167] In comparison, German pilots received about 230 hours of flying time and Soviet pilots even less.[168]

[Nakena]

He's been doing this long before I've actually taken to arguing against these fantasies.

Notable things include him having a self-professed desire to fight and die for the Nazis on the Eastern Front and defending Nazi wartime production as superior even though all the major Allies objectively outcompeted them in practically every important category.

(Emphasis mine)

OEP, is that true? I vaguely remember it being the case, but I don't wish to rush to judgement without proper evidence. Does that make sense?

He didn reacted when I posted him this meme so I assume he only into alt-history stuff really.

[Torrocca]

Utterly stupid, if that alt-history happens to require reality-bending things to happen to actually work. But I'm sure you already knew that, which is why you definitively don't make arguments that include defending Nazi Germany's production capabilities as superior to any of the Allies or assuming a completely flawed plan for seizing Vladivostok would've actually worked out in Imperial Japan's favor even though said plans included using the entire IJA and double the number of trucks than what the entire Imperial military actually had on an offensive against a numerically superior force in a strategically superior position that had the Japanese surrounded on three sides. Right?

I didn't assume any reality bending, as I laid out a plausible scenario with the divergence being Japan carried out the offensive it had been planning against the Soviets for years and continued to do so actively until 1944. If you'll recall, the stipulation was that Japan needed only to shut off shipping to the Russian Far East, which the Imperial Japanese Navy alone could do without the involvement of the Kwantung Army.

Finally, let's be honest here; you lifted all of your quotes off the Wikipedia article on Kantokuen. Unfortunately for you, I know who wrote that article and that's also how I know you just stopped when you read the basic numbers for 1941 without reading on. Allow me to show you what you left out, either through pure laziness or deliberately because you just can't stand to admit it when you know I'm right:

Soviet forces in the Far East were dispersed over a vast arc from Mongolia to Vladivostok. Without the ability to capitalize on this deployment by striking deep into Manchuria from multiple axes, their strength would be fatally diluted and prone to piecemeal destruction at the hands of the Japanese, who could maneuver freely on their interior lines, concentrating their power at will while the immobile Red Army was fixed in place.[135] The only saving grace for the Soviets was that the remoteness of the Far East from European Russia meant that Japan alone could never hope to deal a mortal blow to the USSR, for which the former would be reliant on Germany.[136]

Organizationally, although Soviet forces in the Far East on paper amounted to some 32 division-equivalents by December 1941,[137] they were regarded as only barely sufficient for defensive operations. Compared to a typical Japanese division, pre-war Red Army units possessed slightly less manpower, but had greater access to long-range, higher caliber artillery. After the German invasion, however, the Red Army was reorganized so that each division had scarcely half the manpower and a fraction of the firepower of either its German or Japanese counterpart. Hence, to achieve superiority on the battlefield the Soviets would have to concentrate several divisions to counter each of the opponent's.[138]

Lastly, the quality of both personnel and equipment in the respective armies cannot be ignored. As the Soviets drained their best, most well-trained divisions to fight in the west, the overall standard of the forces in the east correspondingly diminished, forcing the STAVKA to rely more heavily on its fortified regions in defensive operations.[149] Meanwhile, the Kwantung Army opposite them then constituted "the cream of the entire Japanese armed forces,"[150] and was receiving reinforcements by the day. A large proportion of its units were elite Type A divisions,[r] many of which had seen extensive service in China. The quality of the Japanese officer corps was also very high, as many figures who would go on to have notable careers in the Pacific War including Tomoyuki Yamashita (head of the Kwantung Defense Command and later First Area Army), Isamu Yokoyama (1st Division, later 4th Army), Mitsuru Ushijima (11th Division),[152] and Tadamichi Kuribayashi (1st Cavalry Brigade, Mongolia Garrison Army)[153] held commands there. While both sides primarily relied on bolt-action rifles and light automatic weapons as the backbone of the infantry, Japanese artillery often found itself outranged by the heavy Soviet guns at Khalkhin Gol, to the point where the IJA felt compelled to move their 15 cm howitzers closer to the front in order to bring them to bear, even at the expense of cover.[154] Even though the Japanese managed to disable a considerable number of Soviet guns through counterbattery fire,[155] their lack of range at extreme distances and shortage of ammunition left them at a distinct disadvantage against the Red Army.[156]

Tanks presented a mixed picture as well: although the most modern machine available to the Kwantung Army in 1941, the Type 97 Chi-Ha, had thicker armor (up to 33 mm)[157] compared to the Soviet BT and T-26, its low-velocity 57 mm gun common to medium tanks of the era was outmatched by the long-barreled 45 mm weapons mounted on its opposite numbers, while the 37 mm gun used on the Ha-Go and Te-Ke had an effective range of less than a kilometer.[158] In general, while the "handcrafted, beautifully polished" Japanese tanks were more survivable thanks to their diesel engines (the gasoline powerplants used by the Russians were especially fireprone[159]), their lesser numbers meant that each loss was more damaging to the IJA than each destroyed "crudely finished," "expendable" BT or T-26 was to the Red Army.[160] During the only pitched armored engagement at Khalkhin Gol (the Yasuoka Group's attack in July), the Japanese saw 42 out of their 73 tanks[161] disabled whereas the Soviet-Mongol side lost over 77 tanks and 45 armored cars out of the more than 133 and 59 committed, respectively.[162][s] The balance in the air would have been strongly in favor of the Japanese. Although the most modern fighter in the Soviet Air Force arsenal available in the Far East, the Polikarpov I-16, was a firm opponent of the Nakajima Ki-27,[163][t] the majority of planes in-theater were considerably older. Furthermore, the Soviets had no answer to either the Mitsubishi A6M, which had been fighting in China since 1940,[164] or the high-speed Ki-21 bomber, which could fly faster and farther than its contemporary, the SB-2.[165][166] Japanese pilots were also highly experienced, with IJNAS airmen averaging roughly 700 hours of flight time by late 1941, and IJAAF aviators averaging 500. Many of these fliers had already tasted combat against China or the VVS in previous battles.[167] In comparison, German pilots received about 230 hours of flying time and Soviet pilots even less.[168]

"The only saving grace for the Soviets was that the remoteness of the Far East from European Russia meant that Japan alone could never hope to deal a mortal blow to the USSR, for which the former would be reliant on Germany."

lmao

Nazi "what even are supply lines" Germany wasn't capable of doing jack shit past the territory it managed to get to, considering they had dogshit plans that assumed no more than six weeks of fighting, had partisans absolutely eating their rear echelons like a kid in a candy store, and were stopped cold and lost all the momentum they had.

[Totally Not OEP]

He's been doing this long before I've actually taken to arguing against these fantasies.

Notable things include him having a self-professed desire to fight and die for the Nazis on the Eastern Front and defending Nazi wartime production as superior even though all the major Allies objectively outcompeted them in practically every important category.

(Emphasis mine)

OEP, is that true? I vaguely remember it being the case, but I don't wish to rush to judgement without proper evidence. Does that make sense?

If the Italics weren't a tip off to it being a joke, the fact that person I was responding to brought up Jewish girls (Inside joke) should've been.

[Totally Not OEP]

"The only saving grace for the Soviets was that the remoteness of the Far East from European Russia meant that Japan alone could never hope to deal a mortal blow to the USSR, for which the former would be reliant on Germany."

lmao

Nazi "what even are supply lines" Germany wasn't capable of doing jack shit past the territory it managed to get to, considering they had dogshit plans that assumed no more than six weeks of fighting, had partisans absolutely eating their rear echelons like a kid in a candy store, and were stopped cold and lost all the momentum they had.

The idea that the Germans assumed just six weeks of campaigning has long been debunked (The lack of winter uniforms was due to railway hurdles, with priority given to munitions, fuel and food over uniforms), but that's a bit beyond the point. Again, you seem to have forgot the original point was Japan shutting down the Far East route for Lend Lease. As I outlined previously, the FEA route was the largest one by far during the war and was where the food that sustained the Red Army passed through. Reposting them, just for clarity:

Hunger and War: Food Provisioning in the Soviet Union During World War II

[Torrocca]

"The only saving grace for the Soviets was that the remoteness of the Far East from European Russia meant that Japan alone could never hope to deal a mortal blow to the USSR, for which the former would be reliant on Germany."

lmao

Nazi "what even are supply lines" Germany wasn't capable of doing jack shit past the territory it managed to get to, considering they had dogshit plans that assumed no more than six weeks of fighting, had partisans absolutely eating their rear echelons like a kid in a candy store, and were stopped cold and lost all the momentum they had.

The idea that the Germans assumed just six weeks of campaigning has long been debunked (The lack of winter uniforms was due to railway hurdles, with priority given to munitions, fuel and food over uniforms), but that's a bit beyond the point. Again, you seem to have forgot the original point was Japan shutting down the Far East route for Lend Lease. As I outlined previously, the FEA route was the largest one by far during the war and was where the food that sustained the Red Army passed through. Reposting them, just for clarity:

Hunger and War: Food Provisioning in the Soviet Union During World War II

I love how you ignore the very, very simple fact that the Allies could've simply, oh, I dunno, moved supplies to those other routes? But nah I guess that's totally impossible whereas Japan dedicating its entire army to taking a single city while being locally outnumbered by the Soviets (as well as by the Chinese because they were still openly at war with Japan and would've exploited the hell out of a volatilely stupid attack on Vladivostok by the IJA) is a clear and obvious possibility, which is why they obviously decided against it, right?

[Nakena]

(Emphasis mine)

OEP, is that true? I vaguely remember it being the case, but I don't wish to rush to judgement without proper evidence. Does that make sense?

I'll spare you the digging. He claimed later in the thread it was just a joke but, y'know, given his propensity for talking about an Axis victory in WWII because they did [insert fantastical theory of the week here], and for just defending them in general, I very much doubt that claim.

If you are implying that OEP might be an actual Fascist or NatSoc then I am inclined to believe that you may have not yet the questionable pleasure to meet actual ones. (Which are a rare breed on NSG I should add)

[Totally Not OEP]

I love how you ignore the very, very simple fact that the Allies could've simply, oh, I dunno, moved supplies to those other routes? But nah I guess that's totally impossible whereas Japan dedicating its entire army to taking a single city while being locally outnumbered by the Soviets (as well as by the Chinese because they were still openly at war with Japan and would've exploited the hell out of a volatilely stupid attack on Vladivostok by the IJA) is a clear and obvious possibility, which is why they obviously decided against it, right?

They couldn't because the other routes lacked capacity and the Northern Route wasn't all year. Even with building up the port capacity and railway network in Persia and the Russian Far North, the Far East Asia route beat all of them hands down.

As well, we once again see you haven't read even what you've previously cited; the entire IJA was not going to be used for any such offensive and never was planned for such. IGHQ only planned to use the Kwantung Army, which was an entirely separate force from the China Expeditionary Force. As for the Kwantung Army, as I literally just cited, it had the advantage of interior lines, control of the air and quality troops while the Soviets had low rated formations that were stretched thin and thus could be concentrated against by the Japanese. Their only line of logistics is the Trans-Siberian Railroad, which the Japanese can bomb with impunity thanks to the poor state of the VVS in the Far East and Japanese air superiority.

As for why the IJA didn't do this, again, if you had read the article you would know: the situation with regards to the United States had become paramount.

[Hanafuridake]

I'll spare you the digging. He claimed later in the thread it was just a joke but, y'know, given his propensity for talking about an Axis victory in WWII because they did [insert fantastical theory of the week here], and for just defending them in general, I very much doubt that claim.

If you are implying that OEP might be an actual Fascist or NatSoc then I am inclined to believe that you may have not yet the questionable pleasure to meet actual ones. (Which are a rare breed on NSG I should add)

This is the right-wing equivalent of the Not Real Communism apologia.

[The Wasatch]

One observation that I have noted, and maybe I don't have enough times on forums to make this assessment, but democratic socialists/social democrats such as Torrocca, myself, and more seem to have a tendency to write paragraph responses. It could be entirely coincidental, however.