Right-Wing Discussion Thread XVIII: Hyena Central Command 憶ラ

[Nea Byzantia]

No, the problem isn't defeating the Axis. The problem is afterwards; who's holding what. If the Americans got a nice chunk of the territory after liberating it from the Japanese; they may not give it back to the Soviet Union; leaving them weaker.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ That'd be a post-war problem, then.

Still a problem, though.

[Torrocca]

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ That'd be a post-war problem, then.

Still a problem, though.

Yes, but not a problem for the war effort against the Axis.

[North German Realm]

Still a problem, though.

Yes, but not a problem for the war effort against the Axis.

The worst way it could be is if Japan decidedly not attacked Pearl Harbor but attacked Russia, tbh.

[Torrocca]

Yes, but not a problem for the war effort against the Axis.

The worst way it could be is if Japan decidedly not attacked Pearl Harbor but attacked Russia, tbh.

Yeah, but the problem there is that the USA had already implemented the oil embargo well before the 1942 timetable that OEP's suggesting Japan could've invaded the USSR in, so they wouldn't've had much to fight with. This coupled with the hopelessly ambitious plans of the IJA (which included dedicating practically all of the IJA to the fight despite being at war with China, and just magically having double the amount of trucks than what their entire military actually had, among other things) means that it really wouldn't've ended well for Japan.

[Napkizemlja]

Tbf even a 1942 assault would have tilted the odds. The Soviets weren't really able to fully get their shit together until 1943 for example and that was with having to contend with two fronts. It would have actually been really bad considering that the Soviet's left their far eastern commands pretty defenseless after Barbarossa.

The thing here is that there wasn't much to seize in Eastern Russia in the first place; yes, Vladivostok, in particular, would've been a blow against the Allied war effort, at least for a little bit, but it's not like it would've been impossible to immediately retake the city. Something like Operation Uranus may have been delayed, but FDR and the rest of the Allies weren't going to just magically throw their hands up and say, "welp, we lost" because Japan decided to do this cool trick that 1 out of every 8 Soviet leaders hates. America could've easily mounted an amphibious landing in Eastern Russia - in turn temporarily delaying its island-hopping campaign across the Pacific - which is one that'd likely be uncontested from Japan spreading its forces thin trying to occupy huge swathes of China and Siberia. From there, it'd really only be a matter of time in regards to the fighting.

The US would not have been able to easily launch an invasion of eastern Russia. There is a reason that they didn't use Alaska as a staging ground for their campaigns, not to mention already being occupied with the Japanese advances being made to cut off Australia. An early to mid-42 assault in conjunction with Case Blue would have wrecked havoc on the Soviet Union as they would have been able to defend against the Japanese who would have had a more or less open door to the Soviet's industrial base. The troops that would have been needed to hold and push back the Japanese wouldn't have been available to the Soviet's for either Operation Uranus or Little Saturn. Just assuming that the Japanese used the Kwantung Army, that would be around 700 000 troops the Soviets would have had to contend with. They were barely prepared for Case Blue; an out of nowhere assault by the Japanese would have left them scrambling to divert troops and equipment away from their Western Front. It wouldn't have been an easy and over with campaign and losing Vladivostok would have meant about half (probably more considering the Persia Corridor only just being ready to become fully functional) of its needed Lend-Lease supplies. It wouldn't have been easy by a long shot and could very well have resulted in the Soviet's having another year of net losses.

[Torrocca]

The thing here is that there wasn't much to seize in Eastern Russia in the first place; yes, Vladivostok, in particular, would've been a blow against the Allied war effort, at least for a little bit, but it's not like it would've been impossible to immediately retake the city. Something like Operation Uranus may have been delayed, but FDR and the rest of the Allies weren't going to just magically throw their hands up and say, "welp, we lost" because Japan decided to do this cool trick that 1 out of every 8 Soviet leaders hates. America could've easily mounted an amphibious landing in Eastern Russia - in turn temporarily delaying its island-hopping campaign across the Pacific - which is one that'd likely be uncontested from Japan spreading its forces thin trying to occupy huge swathes of China and Siberia. From there, it'd really only be a matter of time in regards to the fighting.

The US would not have been able to easily launch an invasion of eastern Russia. There is a reason that they didn't use Alaska as a staging ground for their campaigns, not to mention already being occupied with the Japanese advances being made to cut off Australia. An early to mid-42 assault in conjunction with Case Blue would have wrecked havoc on the Soviet Union as they would have been able to defend against the Japanese who would have had a more or less open door to the Soviet's industrial base. The troops that would have been needed to hold and push back the Japanese wouldn't have been available to the Soviet's for either Operation Uranus or Little Saturn. Just assuming that the Japanese used the Kwantung Army, that would be around 700 000 troops the Soviets would have had to contend with. They were barely prepared for Case Blue; an out of nowhere assault by the Japanese would have left them scrambling to divert troops and equipment away from their Western Front. It wouldn't have been an easy and over with campaign and losing Vladivostok would have meant about half (probably more considering the Persia Corridor only just being ready to become fully functional) of its needed Lend-Lease supplies. It wouldn't have been easy by a long shot and could very well have resulted in the Soviet's having another year of net losses.

The problem here is that any Japanese plans for FER were hopelessly ambitious. Their plans were made on an assumption that they'd be locally outnumbered, among other things - which is, y'know, practically guaranteed to be fatal to an attacking force.

[Nea Byzantia]

Can we all agree that no matter what type of right-wing government we'd like to establish one day, that neocons must be absolutely excluded from it? I'll take a Catholic theocracy over another Bush presidency.

Agreed.

[Hanafuridake]

Can we all agree that no matter what type of right-wing government we'd like to establish one day, that neocons must be absolutely excluded from it? I'll take a Catholic theocracy over another Bush presidency.

That's like saying you would rather die from one type of poison rather than another.

Both are bad.

[Napkizemlja]

The US would not have been able to easily launch an invasion of eastern Russia. There is a reason that they didn't use Alaska as a staging ground for their campaigns, not to mention already being occupied with the Japanese advances being made to cut off Australia. An early to mid-42 assault in conjunction with Case Blue would have wrecked havoc on the Soviet Union as they would have been able to defend against the Japanese who would have had a more or less open door to the Soviet's industrial base. The troops that would have been needed to hold and push back the Japanese wouldn't have been available to the Soviet's for either Operation Uranus or Little Saturn. Just assuming that the Japanese used the Kwantung Army, that would be around 700 000 troops the Soviets would have had to contend with. They were barely prepared for Case Blue; an out of nowhere assault by the Japanese would have left them scrambling to divert troops and equipment away from their Western Front. It wouldn't have been an easy and over with campaign and losing Vladivostok would have meant about half (probably more considering the Persia Corridor only just being ready to become fully functional) of its needed Lend-Lease supplies. It wouldn't have been easy by a long shot and could very well have resulted in the Soviet's having another year of net losses.

The problem here is that any Japanese plans for FER were hopelessly ambitious. Their plans were made on an assumption that they'd be locally outnumbered, among other things - which is, y'know, practically guaranteed to be fatal to an attacking force.

So were the Japanese offensives into the South Pacific in 1942 which had far less manageable logistics than an offensive into FER. The Soviet's had pretty much drained all of their best troops and equipment from the region and were outnumbered and overstretched.

[Torrocca]

The problem here is that any Japanese plans for FER were hopelessly ambitious. Their plans were made on an assumption that they'd be locally outnumbered, among other things - which is, y'know, practically guaranteed to be fatal to an attacking force.

So were the Japanese offensives into the South Pacific in 1942 which had far less manageable logistics than an offensive into FER. The Soviet's had pretty much drained all of their best troops and equipment from the region and were outnumbered and overstretched.

Except that the Soviets weren't outnumbered, and they had their forces diverted to where the Japanese plans were going to see the most IJA forces being consolidated:

"On the whole, had war broken out in late August or early September 1941 the USSR and MPR would have been able to call on about 1,100,000 men, 2,000 aircraft, 3,200 tanks, 51,000 motor vehicles, 117,000 horses, and 14,000 artillery pieces from Mongolia to Sakhalin to confront the Japanese.[m] Of these, approximately two thirds of all personnel (including virtually the entire navy) would be on the Amur-Ussuri-Sakhalin Front while the remainder would defend Mongolia and the Trans-Baikal region; equipment was split much more evenly between the two groupings.[110]"

Keep in mind, too, that the frontline for the Manchurian-Soviet border at this time was basically a massive saliant spanning thousands of miles; considering the Japanese plans called for the vast majority of troops and materiel to be dedicated to Vladivostok and the immediate region around it, their remaining forces around Mongolia and the Trans-Baikal region would've been severely depleted to the point that the Soviets and Chinese together (seeing as how the operation to seize Vladivostok and FER would've necessitated practically the entire IJA in Asia to participate, destroying the Japanese frontlines against China) could've relatively easily pincered the entire IJA.

[Totally Not OEP]

Problem here is that OEP specified an attack on the USSR by Japan in 1942, well after American involvement in the war had been completely guaranteed by Pearl Harbor:

I gave a range of figures, starting from 1941 to 1944 and picked 1942 as an example, actually.

Which is, y'know, problematic for the simple fact of the matter that Japan attacked the USA in 1941 because its supply of oil had been cut off by America. Starting shit with the USSR after that would've more than likely led to Japan being knocked out of the war perhaps a year or two earlier than it had IRL thanks to locking itself in combat with every major Allied power, which also would've at least had the benefit of sparing China from a number of atrocities and also would've likely led to an even earlier defeat of Nazi Germany because of the numerous resources that the Allies could've reallocated from the Pacific.

So, actually, yeah, now that I think about it, I adore this alt-history scenario, because it very likely would've led to far fewer people dying over the course of World War Two.

It would not have, it would've cut off the Pacific Lend Lease route and starved the USSR into submission. The Soviet forces in Far East Asia were completely incapable of the offensive, lacking the motorization or logistics flow, while were also being used as training cadres with the best untis having long been stripped out. The Kwantung Army, on the other hand, was an elite formation that was untouched by the war until 1944 and the forces deployed from there is what allowed the last campaigns of the war, such as Peleliu, Okinawa and Luzon to be the bloodbaths they were for the U.S.

[Totally Not OEP]

As if this website doesn't have the shittiest system for blocking people in existence that doesn't actually hide bullshit being spewed lmao

Your lack of ability to ignore is noted.

Persian Corridor: *Exists as the most important and major of all Lend-Lease supply routes into the USSR as the only viable all-weather route*
Imperial Japan: *Gets fucking crushed a year or two earlier into the war after the USSR easily stabilizes the situation against the Nazis and their shitshow of a """strategy""" just like it did IRL because they somehow decided against all logic and reason pertaining to any IRL goals, fears, and strategies of their own regarding the USSR that had appeared during the Second Sino-Japanese War to instead suddenly invade Vladivostok*

Also imagine unironically thinking an """alliance""" of three shit countries and a few others, whose economies were basically all built on continuous war, could actually somehow wear down the rest of the world including a full-fledged atomic power that could just nuke them into submission lmao

Might want to review the statistics before coming to debate:

1941: 360,778t, of which 13,502t Persian Gulf, 193,229t Soviet Far East, 153,977t North Russia.
1942: 2,453,097t of which 705,259t Persian Gulf, 734,020 Soviet Far East, 949,711 North Russia, 64,107 Soviet Artic.
1943: 4,794,545t of which 1,606,979 Persian Gulf, 2,388,577 Soviet Far East, 681,043 North Russia, 117,946 Soviet Artic.
1944: 6,217,622t of which 1,788,864 Persian Gulf, 2,848,181 Soviet Far East, 1,452,775 North Russia, 127,802 Soviet Artic.
1945 3,673,819t (last shipments 20 Sept) of which: 44,513 Persian Gulf, 2,079,320 Soviet Far East, 726,725 North Russia, 680,723 Black Sea, 142,538 Soviet Artic.

[Xuloqoia]

If I may, when did this become the World War II Discussion Thread?

[Grahnol]

If I may, when did this become the World War II Discussion Thread?

There are many truths in life. One of them is that war is inevitable and unstoppable. It is therefore imperative that we talk about wars to further our understanding of history, how things break down, how things came to be and to prepare for the inevitable, looking at the looming possibility of another war.

[Xuloqoia]

If I may, when did this become the World War II Discussion Thread?

There are many truths in life. One of them is that war is inevitable and unstoppable. It is therefore imperative that we talk about wars to further our understanding of history, how things break down, how things came to be and to prepare for the inevitable, looking at the looming possibility of another war.

Sensible, sober discourse is both productive and incredibly dull. You should know that from the time we used to spend on the Cafe-Sci server.

[The Wasatch]

Out of curiosity, how would you describe a girl "you can settle down with"? Not a gotcha or anything. I'm genuinely curious.

Pious, virtuous, knowledgeable in woman’s work, good with kids, traditional, wants to get married.

And what would women's work be, as opposed to men's work?

[Diopolis]

Pious, virtuous, knowledgeable in woman’s work, good with kids, traditional, wants to get married.

And what would women's work be, as opposed to men's work?

As the man is the head of household, so the woman is the heart. In child rearing she generally ought to take the more nurturing role, and she runs the household on a day to day basis in submission to her husband.

[The Wasatch]

And what would women's work be, as opposed to men's work?

As the man is the head of household, so the woman is the heart. In child rearing she generally ought to take the more nurturing role, and she runs the household on a day to day basis in submission to her husband.

"Submission to her husband?" Do you not find this statement problematic?

[Jean-Paul Sartre]

As the man is the head of household, so the woman is the heart. In child rearing she generally ought to take the more nurturing role, and she runs the household on a day to day basis in submission to her husband.

"Submission to her husband?" Do you not find this statement problematic?

You expected what exactly out of a trad catholic?

[The Wasatch]

"Submission to her husband?" Do you not find this statement problematic?

You expected what exactly out of a trad catholic?

Well, I am Catholic and would never believe anything as dangerous and ridiculous as that! It actually strikes me as parody.

[Xuloqoia]

You expected what exactly out of a trad catholic?

Well, I am Catholic and would never believe anything as dangerous and ridiculous as that! It actually strikes me as parody.

Well there's your problem; you're not trad enough to be a True Catholic^TM. You probably accept the Second Vatican Council as valid, you filthy modernist.

/sarcasm, for goodness sake

[Hanafuridake]

Lamaism is based on the Northern Buddhism of India, after it had become saturated with the disgusting elements of Siva worship. Its deities are innumerable, its idolatry unlimited.

This should be a new band name.

U n l i m i t e d I d o l a t r y

[Cappuccina]

And what would women's work be, as opposed to men's work?

As the man is the head of household, so the woman is the heart. In child rearing she generally ought to take the more nurturing role, and she runs the household on a day to day basis in submission to her husband.

Submission to a strong and worthy husband, mind you. The wife is queen, and as such she commands respect as well.

[Xuloqoia]

Lamaism is based on the Northern Buddhism of India, after it had become saturated with the disgusting elements of Siva worship. Its deities are innumerable, its idolatry unlimited.

This should be a new band name.

U n l i m i t e d I d o l a t r y

Be the change you want to see in the world, I guess. What genre, if I may ask?

[Cappuccina]

You expected what exactly out of a trad catholic?

Well, I am Catholic and would never believe anything as dangerous and ridiculous as that! It actually strikes me as parody.

Submission in the case of husband and wife is not the same as that to God(swt), it is deference, allowing him to fill his position as head...if he's capable.