Is the giant panda worth saving?

[An Alan Smithee Nation]

I've heard that bear meat in general is not that good. Also relatively easy to get sick from if it's not prepared well.

I don't know about bear meat in general, but I believe that polar bear and seal livers are famously so high in vitamin A as to be poisonous to humans.

Though I imagine the more common danger is the polar bear eating your liver.

How is a polar bear going to get hold of a nice Chianti though?

[USS Monitor]

No really, I am baffled by people's reactions in this thread. So many proponents of natural selection yet the very moment something is wrong with their health they will be running to modern medicine to keep them from dying. But I wonder, would they be worth saving? What is their contribution to the wider world? And if they so fervently believe in the survival of the fittest, then let them prove their right, no? Let's take away all their access to medicine, stores, food and other resources. Let them get by on their own. No? Is that too much for them? Would that be too cruel? Well, I guess this thread is humanocentrism at its best then.

That's not how natural selection works. Being smart enough to create medicine, trade, etc. is a natural evolutionary adaptation in humans. Going to the doctor is a legitimate evolutionary strategy.

Eugenicist societies are not more Darwinian than ones that provide for the weak. Darwin wrote about cooperation as well as competition.

And FWIW, if pandas survive because we think they are cute, being cute is a legitimate evolutionary strategy too.

[USS Monitor]

Obviously, we should be saving the bamboo forests. Bamboo forests are beautiful, and bamboo is useful for more than just panda food. You can make things out of it and use the shoots for stir fry.

Bamboo grows pretty fast as well.

That's why it is great to make things out of. Very renewable.

[Ethel mermania]

I don't know about bear meat in general, but I believe that polar bear and seal livers are famously so high in vitamin A as to be poisonous to humans.

Though I imagine the more common danger is the polar bear eating your liver.

How is a polar bear going to get hold of a nice Chianti though?

Amazon.

[Ethel mermania]

No really, I am baffled by people's reactions in this thread. So many proponents of natural selection yet the very moment something is wrong with their health they will be running to modern medicine to keep them from dying. But I wonder, would they be worth saving? What is their contribution to the wider world? And if they so fervently believe in the survival of the fittest, then let them prove their right, no? Let's take away all their access to medicine, stores, food and other resources. Let them get by on their own. No? Is that too much for them? Would that be too cruel? Well, I guess this thread is humanocentrism at its best then.

That's not how natural selection works. Being smart enough to create medicine, trade, etc. is a natural evolutionary adaptation in humans. Going to the doctor is a legitimate evolutionary strategy.

Eugenicist societies are not more Darwinian than ones that provide for the weak. Darwin wrote about cooperation as well as competition.

And FWIW, if pandas survive because we think they are cute, being cute is a legitimate evolutionary strategy too.

It's my only hope.

[Ifreann]

I don't know about bear meat in general, but I believe that polar bear and seal livers are famously so high in vitamin A as to be poisonous to humans.

Though I imagine the more common danger is the polar bear eating your liver.

How is a polar bear going to get hold of a nice Chianti though?

Pop down to Svalbard?

[Bear Stearns]

I wonder if genetic engineering will make mini "pygmy" pandas possible. Seems like they'd be cool pets.

[Napkizemlja]

Because they're fluffy

And contribute nothing to the environment

So?

[Ifreann]

I wonder if genetic engineering will make mini "pygmy" pandas possible. Seems like they'd be cool pets.

Product exists: Red pandas.

[USS Monitor]

I wonder if genetic engineering will make mini "pygmy" pandas possible. Seems like they'd be cool pets.

Product exists: Red pandas.

They aren't just a mini version of a panda, though.

[Dogmeat]

No. In addition to everything the OP mentioned, half the time the pandas in captivity don't even want to mate, an animal that doesn't want to reproduce on its own initiative doesn't deserve to be saved.

Not to mention that the panda breeding program is a Chinese scam in the first place...

They mate just fine once we figured out how their courtship ritual works.

In the wild they would know there was another panda nearby by smell long before they ever met face to face. They get comfortable with each other that way for a long period before mating. You can replicate this by keeping them in separate enclosures, and exchanging items from enclosure to enclosure.

Also, a lot of early attempts at breeding pandas paired siblings out of convenience. And scientists now suspect that pandas might be reluctant to fuck their relatives.

[Yeetteey]

Nah fam.

[East Lodge]

Because they rely on bamboo, and are chubby, and cute, and we don't want to kill a species because they dumb, we keep them alive.

[Fahran]

While it is true that pandas' dietary predilections and reproductive habits, both in the wild and in captivity, have made conservation efforts exceedingly difficult, simple measures aimed at preserving the habitats of wild pandas have, together with new methodologies of tracking wild populations, resulted in the documented population leaping from several hundred individuals in the 1950's to as many as 2,000 or 3,000 in 2016. Humans have played a substantial role in harming the viability of wild panda populations through deforrestation, habitat destruction, habitat segregation, imposition of captivity - which reduces overall fertility, and poaching. A problem created by people can be fixed by people.

[Aureumterra]

Because they’re fluffy? That’s worth billions of dollars?


Why? (Also is this an official zoo account? )

You keep repeating the same lines over and over again, but I haven't seen you respond to my counter-question. So, to mimic you, I am going to repeat myself:

If your life was on the line, if your health was threatened, would you want someone to ask "is Aureumterra worth saving, I mean it will cost the taxpayer a lot" or, since we have the ability and means, would you prefer to be treated? Because if you truly believe in "natural selection", if you truly believe that survival of the fittest is the rule, I honestly expect you to decline medical attention or any form of help throughout your entire life. Because otherwise you're a hypocrite of mastodontic proportions and honestly, your arguments have absolutely no value at all.

And the same goes for everyone here saying "oh yeah kill the pandas, eat them". I expect all of you to be tough, living off the land, hunting and foraging, letting your body heal itself without any medical aid should the need arise, no welfare, no help from any organisation or person. Because otherwise, you're just a bunch of hypocrites with a severe lack of empathy, if you ask me.

1. Your attempts to discredit my argument by bringing up me seeking medical attention is the quintessential ad hominem

2. The person with the intellect to seek medical help is immediately better evolved than those who don’t

[Nazis in Space]

How is a polar bear going to get hold of a nice Chianti though?

Amazon.

Not many polar bears residing there. Too hot and humid, I hear.

[Marxist Germany]

Yes, Pandas are a species most people want to not go extinct.

[US-SSR]

Pandas are savage beasts that should be shot on sight. Unless they're in zoos.

I've seen pandas in zoos in both Washington, DC and Mexico City. At the National Zoo they had a specially-designed habitat, bamboo grown especially for them and the best veggies and other stuff besides, they were inspected regularly, their health monitored, etc. In all that time the zoo failed to achieve a live panda baby.

In Mexico City the pandas had a pretty basic cage; there appeared to be random piles of raw meat laying around. One assumes someone was looking after their health, but. In all that time a half-dozen or so pandas were born and survived in the Chapultepec Zoo. Is it something in the water or what?

[US-SSR]

I wonder if genetic engineering will make mini "pygmy" pandas possible. Seems like they'd be cool pets.

Product exists: Red pandas.

Um the red panda and giant panda are not closely related. The latter is a bear, the former is its own thang.

[Ors Might]

Pandas are savage beasts that should be shot on sight. Unless they're in zoos.

I've seen pandas in zoos in both Washington, DC and Mexico City. At the National Zoo they had a specially-designed habitat, bamboo grown especially for them and the best veggies and other stuff besides, they were inspected regularly, their health monitored, etc. In all that time the zoo failed to achieve a live panda baby.

In Mexico City the pandas had a pretty basic cage; there appeared to be random piles of raw meat laying around. One assumes someone was looking after their health, but. In all that time a half-dozen or so pandas were born and survived in the Chapultepec Zoo. Is it something in the water or what?

Pandas just don’t wanna fucking live as a species, I guess. Maybe being forced to eat meat does something for their libido? Do we got panda experts in this thread?

[The Wasatch]

Pandas must be protected from human harm, at the very least. While they may be an illadapted species, biodiversity is always worth protecting. Additionally, a species rarely goes extinct without unintended consequences, as everything in the ecosystem has evolved around them. Finally, humans must protect pandas because we are the greatest threat to them.

[Ors Might]

Pandas must be protected from human harm, at the very least. While they may be an illadapted species, biodiversity is always worth protecting. Additionally, a species rarely goes extinct without unintended consequences, as everything in the ecosystem has evolved around them. Finally, humans must protect pandas because we are the greatest threat to them.

What role do pandas serve that would be so devastating to lose? Don’t the vast majority live on tiny reserves on a single continent? Also, really? Species are driven to extinction all the time regardless of human involvement. Why do we owe this particular species anything? Because they’re cute? Sure as hell ain’t because they’re so vital.

[The Wasatch]

Pandas must be protected from human harm, at the very least. While they may be an illadapted species, biodiversity is always worth protecting. Additionally, a species rarely goes extinct without unintended consequences, as everything in the ecosystem has evolved around them. Finally, humans must protect pandas because we are the greatest threat to them.

What role do pandas serve that would be so devastating to lose? Don’t the vast majority live on tiny reserves on a single continent? Also, really? Species are driven to extinction all the time regardless of human involvement. Why do we owe this particular species anything? Because they’re cute? Sure as hell ain’t because they’re so vital.

Their extinction will likely have environmental consequences that we cannot foresee. Additionally, just because they are not useful to humans doesn't mean that it isn't important to protect biodiversity. Biodiversity makes humans safer, as collapse of the ecosystems that we rely upon is much less likely. Finally, they must be protected because we are the primary reason that they are doing so poorly currently, and driving species to extinction isn't responsible or sustainable. I couldn't care less if they are cute.

[Ifreann]

Product exists: Red pandas.

They aren't just a mini version of a panda, though.

They also have the power of foxes.

[Bombadil]

I wonder if genetic engineering will make mini "pygmy" pandas possible. Seems like they'd be cool pets.

Product exists: Red pandas.

Red Pandas are thoroughly vicious little bastards and in no way would make good pets. They're like raccoons on steroids. Half the ones in the Chengdu Panda Centre are missing one or two ears and when we asked why the answer is that they spend their time ripping each others ears off and there's not much anyone can do about it.