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Is the giant panda worth saving?

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Aureumterra
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Is the giant panda worth saving?

Postby Aureumterra » Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:21 pm

You probably saw the title and think I’m some human monster who wants to mass murder pandas and a shill working for some corporation that wants to deforest all of China. You also probably are going to furiously type about how beautiful and cute they are and rage on me for being such an evil human monster who could even possibly bring up the notion of not saving pandas. Just take your emotional goggle off for a minute and think about giant pandas through an objective and scientific lens.

Most people know all the basic things about the giant panda, they’re somewhat large bears native to China who rely on bamboo, they’re critically endangered species and have become icons of the conservation effort, mostly because they’re cute and other endangered animals arguably more worth saving, such as okapis or Indian mangroves, don’t really trigger the feels. All in all, giant pandas are the perfect animal to hold up as a symbol of human cruelty and conservation. Or so they seem, in fact, pandas are horrible at surviving, and they are one of the worst evolved animals on the planet.

Remember natural selection? If natural selection had taken its full course, the giant panda would be extinct quite fast, and despite what activists may tell you, no, the panda’s endangerment was not caused by humans. In fact, pandas were going extinct for a while, and any evolutionary scientist observing pandas wouldn’t have a hard time telling why. Pandas rely on bamboo, a low nutrition food source that the panda’s body isn’t evolved to digest properly, and thus extracts very little nutrition from it. Adding on to that, pandas depend almost entirely on bamboo, and the species has failed to adapt to anything else, even though they aren’t afraid to kill and eat meat on rare occasions. That’s the problem, anyone who knows basic evolutionary science will tell you a species that relies overtly on a single food source goes extinct pretty fast, human interference or not. It’s called natural selection, a trend that’s been going on for millions of years before humans even existed. Species that have poor adaptations often go extinct pretty fast, or stay on a small island or remote area with no threats. In addition, pandas almost have no niches in their environment (and no, despite what you may have heard, eating bamboo is not a unique niche. Many animals of the habitat do that, getting rid of pandas won’t cause a “bamboo overpopulation” if you’re worried)

So why does it matter, you ask? Well, panda conservation efforts costs anywhere from 500 million to ~5 billion USD every year. This is, all arguably to keep an already dying species on life support against the uphill battle of natural selection. Do you really think this is worth the cost and effort? Should we be focusing on species that are actually being destroyed because of humans and those who actually serve a purpose to their environment, such as, like aforementioned, the Indian mangrove?
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Archipelago Bay
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Postby Archipelago Bay » Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:51 pm

Because they're fluffy

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Aureumterra
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Postby Aureumterra » Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:52 pm

Archipelago Bay wrote:Because they're fluffy

And contribute nothing to the environment
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Archipelago Bay
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Postby Archipelago Bay » Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:55 pm

Maybe they make more money out of tourist revenue than their upkeep costs?

At the very least I think it would be more worthy spending that money on Pandas than WMDs

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Postby Grater Tovakia » Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:56 pm

Archipelago Bay wrote:Maybe they make more money out of tourist revenue than their upkeep costs?

At the very least I think it would be more worthy spending that money on Pandas than WMDs



Why choose? Lets turn Pandas into WMDs. Then we will have a weapon to surpass metal gear
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Aureumterra
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Postby Aureumterra » Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:59 pm

Archipelago Bay wrote:Maybe they make more money out of tourist revenue than their upkeep costs?

At the very least I think it would be more worthy spending that money on Pandas than WMDs

But here’s the thing, its a species that’s dependent on a single food source. Natural selection has shown how bad they are at well… surviving, meanwhile, the most successful species are usually omnivores with very diverse diets
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Postby The Two Jerseys » Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:00 pm

No. In addition to everything the OP mentioned, half the time the pandas in captivity don't even want to mate, an animal that doesn't want to reproduce on its own initiative doesn't deserve to be saved.

Not to mention that the panda breeding program is a Chinese scam in the first place...
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Postby Skyhooked » Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:01 pm

Ummm... I know, ya' might say: "Oh, Skyhooked is on drugs and high as kite.", but please, hear me out! If it's actually such a problem to keep pandas (which is not), why not just get it's DNA samples and keep them in the beer cooler? So in case nature takes it's course and bad thing happens, the specie can be revived, when cloning is a more or less sustainable and worthwhile technology.

Just to think. It costs almost nothing to keep panda samples in some freezer or something, and then it costs less to revive them, when cloning technology develops and such an extravagant procedure becomes as simple as cooking a turkey.
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Postby Aureumterra » Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:03 pm

The Two Jerseys wrote:No. In addition to everything the OP mentioned, half the time the pandas in captivity don't even want to mate, an animal that doesn't want to reproduce on its own initiative doesn't deserve to be saved.

Not to mention that the panda breeding program is a Chinese scam in the first place...

That too, governments pay millions to Chinese communists and government officials to have some cute fluffy bears
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Postby Archipelago Bay » Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:06 pm

Here in New Zealand we have a ton of native species that the government spends hundreds of millions each year trying to preserve

I personally don't mind paying a few extra dollars in taxes so I can hear a native birds call BUT


You could make a similar argument that the native species would've died out anyway

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Postby Ifreann » Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:09 pm

Aureumterra wrote:That’s the problem, anyone who knows basic evolutionary science will tell you a species that relies overtly on a single food source goes extinct pretty fast, human interference or not.

Em, no. A species that relies on one source of food will go extinct if they lose their source of food before they can adapt. Pandas only eating bamboo would drive them to extinction only if they ran out of bamboo.
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Postby Mettaton-EX » Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:24 pm

Aureumterra wrote:Remember natural selection? If natural selection had taken its full course, the giant panda would be extinct quite fast, and despite what activists may tell you, no, the panda’s endangerment was not caused by humans. In fact, pandas were going extinct for a while, and any evolutionary scientist observing pandas wouldn’t have a hard time telling why. Pandas rely on bamboo, a low nutrition food source that the panda’s body isn’t evolved to digest properly, and thus extracts very little nutrition from it. Adding on to that, pandas depend almost entirely on bamboo, and the species has failed to adapt to anything else, even though they aren’t afraid to kill and eat meat on rare occasions. That’s the problem, anyone who knows basic evolutionary science will tell you a species that relies overtly on a single food source goes extinct pretty fast, human interference or not. It’s called natural selection, a trend that’s been going on for millions of years before humans even existed. Species that have poor adaptations often go extinct pretty fast, or stay on a small island or remote area with no threats. In addition, pandas almost have no niches in their environment (and no, despite what you may have heard, eating bamboo is not a unique niche. Many animals of the habitat do that, getting rid of pandas won’t cause a “bamboo overpopulation” if you’re worried)


koalas eat exclusively poison and are a much smaller (entirely human-caused) conservation issue, so i don't buy this argument

anyways conservation efforts for pandas have significant spillover into conservation efforts for other species, so even if you think pandas are useless, the efforts should continue
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Postby Aureumterra » Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:27 pm

Ifreann wrote:
Aureumterra wrote:That’s the problem, anyone who knows basic evolutionary science will tell you a species that relies overtly on a single food source goes extinct pretty fast, human interference or not.

Em, no. A species that relies on one source of food will go extinct if they lose their source of food before they can adapt. Pandas only eating bamboo would drive them to extinction only if they ran out of bamboo.

Humans aren’t the only thing that changes the environment, a mutated epidemic, volcanic eruption, etc. all cause major problems for species as fragile as the panda
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Aureumterra
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Postby Aureumterra » Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:29 pm

Mettaton-EX wrote:
Aureumterra wrote:Remember natural selection? If natural selection had taken its full course, the giant panda would be extinct quite fast, and despite what activists may tell you, no, the panda’s endangerment was not caused by humans. In fact, pandas were going extinct for a while, and any evolutionary scientist observing pandas wouldn’t have a hard time telling why. Pandas rely on bamboo, a low nutrition food source that the panda’s body isn’t evolved to digest properly, and thus extracts very little nutrition from it. Adding on to that, pandas depend almost entirely on bamboo, and the species has failed to adapt to anything else, even though they aren’t afraid to kill and eat meat on rare occasions. That’s the problem, anyone who knows basic evolutionary science will tell you a species that relies overtly on a single food source goes extinct pretty fast, human interference or not. It’s called natural selection, a trend that’s been going on for millions of years before humans even existed. Species that have poor adaptations often go extinct pretty fast, or stay on a small island or remote area with no threats. In addition, pandas almost have no niches in their environment (and no, despite what you may have heard, eating bamboo is not a unique niche. Many animals of the habitat do that, getting rid of pandas won’t cause a “bamboo overpopulation” if you’re worried)


koalas eat exclusively poison and are a much smaller (entirely human-caused) conservation issue, so i don't buy this argument

Koalas are much smaller and thus need much less energy, they also live in Australia, one of the most isolated places (in terms of evolutionary science) on Earth
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Postby Ifreann » Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:29 pm

Aureumterra wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Em, no. A species that relies on one source of food will go extinct if they lose their source of food before they can adapt. Pandas only eating bamboo would drive them to extinction only if they ran out of bamboo.

Humans aren’t the only thing that changes the environment, a mutated epidemic, volcanic eruption, etc. all cause major problems for species as fragile as the panda

And was there an epidemic that struck bamboo plants lately? Or a volcanic eruption in China?
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Postby Mettaton-EX » Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:34 pm

Aureumterra wrote:
Mettaton-EX wrote:
koalas eat exclusively poison and are a much smaller (entirely human-caused) conservation issue, so i don't buy this argument

Koalas are much smaller and thus need much less energy, they also live in Australia, one of the most isolated places (in terms of evolutionary science) on Earth

this isn't really relevant to the argument
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Postby Aureumterra » Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:36 pm

Ifreann wrote:
Aureumterra wrote:Humans aren’t the only thing that changes the environment, a mutated epidemic, volcanic eruption, etc. all cause major problems for species as fragile as the panda

And was there an epidemic that struck bamboo plants lately? Or a volcanic eruption in China?

Not lately, but a few centuries ago, some theorize this virus spread rapidly throughout China, explaining the seemingly mysterious disappearance of large swaths of bamboo forest as noted in Imperial Chinese records
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Postby Aureumterra » Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:37 pm

Mettaton-EX wrote:
Aureumterra wrote:Koalas are much smaller and thus need much less energy, they also live in Australia, one of the most isolated places (in terms of evolutionary science) on Earth

this isn't really relevant to the argument

You said koalas eat only eucalyptus, eucalyptus provides enough food to koalas to sustain them, eucalyptus is enough for koalas. Bamboo is barely nutritious at all
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Postby Catsfern » Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:39 pm

forget being worth saving, im half convinced they actively WANT to go extinct

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Postby Skarten » Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:41 pm

A planet without pandas is not a planet i want to live in.

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Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:42 pm

The Two Jerseys wrote:No. In addition to everything the OP mentioned, half the time the pandas in captivity don't even want to mate, an animal that doesn't want to reproduce on its own initiative doesn't deserve to be saved.

Not to mention that the panda breeding program is a Chinese scam in the first place...

This ^^ they extort cash from our zoos.

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Postby Aureumterra » Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:43 pm

Skarten wrote:A planet without pandas is not a planet i want to live in.

Ground Sloths were better
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Postby Mettaton-EX » Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:46 pm

Aureumterra wrote:
Mettaton-EX wrote:this isn't really relevant to the argument

You said koalas eat only eucalyptus, eucalyptus provides enough food to koalas to sustain them, eucalyptus is enough for koalas. Bamboo is barely nutritious at all

bamboo is enough for pandas the exact same way eucalyptus is enough for koalas
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Postby Jean-Paul Sartre » Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:47 pm

No.
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Aureumterra
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Postby Aureumterra » Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:47 pm

Mettaton-EX wrote:
Aureumterra wrote:You said koalas eat only eucalyptus, eucalyptus provides enough food to koalas to sustain them, eucalyptus is enough for koalas. Bamboo is barely nutritious at all

bamboo is enough for pandas the exact same way eucalyptus is enough for koalas

?

They’re bears. Koalas are marsupials. Bears are evolved to eat meat, pandas can and do occasionally eat meat, for some reason, they’ve evolved to eat too much bamboo, which provides barely any nutrition.
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