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Are teenagers adults, or are they children?

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Katganistan
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Postby Katganistan » Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:09 am

Kazarogkai wrote:I would say from the age of around 14-16 they are adults albeigt young ones reasonably allowed to take on certain adult responsibilities(apprenticeships, control over educational path) and be given a bit of freedom(lack of a solid curfew, semi-self autonomy of action) to go with that but in turn are expected to make mistakes along the way and not be fully ready for full autonomy yet and hence should be given a bit of leeway with a focus on rehabilitating behavior in the form of restorative justice rather than punishment in the form of Retributive and restorative forms of justice. With this their parents having the ability to retain an executive veto on certain major long term actions(like making contracts) in that regard until they reach full adulthood at which point they are fully responsible for their own behavior and in turn should enjoy the full freedoms and privledges that come with that.

"With rights comes responsibilities, with responsibilities comes rights."

Such is apart of the model of how I personally view society should be organized along. Children due to lacking any true responsibility on their own part lack true rights, at best along with non-citizens they have only privileges and expectations. Ive already basically laid this out in a previous thread hence I'll just repost that here:

Kazarogkai wrote:With rights comes responsibilities, with responsibilities comes rights; One is not deserving of anything for the fact that you are born and breathing. You are not special and you are not ultimately important or matter in the greater scheme of things within a proper society until you have given and put forth. "Ask not what your nation can do for you but what you can do for your nation" so say another wise man. These are essential principles from which a strong nation must build it's foundation from lest it fall into decadence and ultimately collapses like so many others. The Nation is like a body, one must nourish it like any other but for it that nourishment comes from duty and fulfillment of responsibility. Being a human is as meaningless and as unimportant and as valueless as being a dog or an ox or a crocodile, one gains meaning and importance and value only from being a good citizen and that in itself requires contribution. To not engage in as such necessarily earns the label parasite and since society is a like a body such things should be treated like any other malady of a body and eliminated or if must contained so that the body may prosper.

To put an example let us say there is a dog and a loafer before me and I only have food for on, who do I feed? Obviously I would feed the dog. The dog has provided service unto me, remained loyal unto me and as such he has gained meaning and importance and value in my eyes while the loafer obviously has not and as such is deserving of nothing. Such is the way a man should operate such is the way society should too.


So to summarize, Children from the age of 13 up to at best 15 lacking in rights lack responsibility for their actions whether positive or negative with said actions being regarded as the responsibility of their guardians. Young adults starting from the age of 14-16 up till they turn about 20-24 are young adults having half rights but also half responsibilities being able to face many of the consequences of their actions but given some cushioning and leeway to help them along the way along with their parents having certain veto powers over certain actions. In contrast full adults from about 20-24 are wholly responsible for their own actions but in turn gain full rights within general society and may enjoy all that entails.

Nope.

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Katganistan
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Postby Katganistan » Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:16 am

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:
A whole life tariff for a child is just nuts. Commit a crime at 16 and spend the next 60 odd years in prison? Nah.

There are exceptional juvenile murder cases that require that, especially when the kid is a budding psychopath. Psychopathy won't go away, ever.

Yes. EXCEPTIONAL. As in, the exception to the general rule.
Seriously, we don't even put most adult murderers away for life, and you want to throw away a youngster without attempting rehabilitation? When we know that for adolescents' brains and impulse control/reasoning aren't fully matured until 25?

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Postby Katganistan » Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:27 am

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:
Australian rePublic wrote:Neither, that's why they're their own catagory.

I'm sorry? This is the same history that involved humourism as the primary form of medicine, that thought that mental illness was demon possession and thought that that bloodletting actually worked. It's almost as if people didn't understand how the body works

Those are specific misconceptions from specific societies.

The notion of teenagers as adults is one that various societies had in common, from Egypt to Europe to indigenous North America.

And they were wrong. We have additional evidence now.
Then again, some of those societies you are touting also supported incest (Egyptian royal families), burning people at the stake for being witches and thinking that cats were witches' familiars and caused the black plague (Europe).

No thanks. Your authoritarian views on young people are troubling -- you also have argued for filming students at every moment of their day in school as if they are criminals, and spying on them in parks and rec centers to see if they are faking belief in Santa Claus -- so which is it? Are they adults, or are they kids who need to be supervised every second of their lives?
Last edited by Katganistan on Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby State of Turelisa » Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:51 am

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:
A whole life tariff for a child is just nuts. Commit a crime at 16 and spend the next 60 odd years in prison? Nah.

There are exceptional juvenile murder cases that require that, especially when the kid is a budding psychopath. Psychopathy won't go away, ever.


A criminal minor's personality is in a state of developmen. Therefore wise justice is based on the predicate that the lack of empathy which a minor's criminal actions indicate, is not neccesarily pathologically psychopathic. An indefinite sentence of rehabilitive custody until adulthood for a minor murderer addresses the problem, identifies any development of psychopathy, and keeps public safety.
Last edited by State of Turelisa on Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Jabberwocky » Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:57 am

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LimaUniformNovemberAlpha
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Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Tue Oct 01, 2019 6:57 pm

Katganistan wrote:
LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:Those are specific misconceptions from specific societies.

The notion of teenagers as adults is one that various societies had in common, from Egypt to Europe to indigenous North America.

And they were wrong. We have additional evidence now.
Then again, some of those societies you are touting also supported incest (Egyptian royal families), burning people at the stake for being witches and thinking that cats were witches' familiars and caused the black plague (Europe).

No thanks. Your authoritarian views on young people are troubling -- you also have argued for filming students at every moment of their day in school as if they are criminals, and spying on them in parks and rec centers to see if they are faking belief in Santa Claus -- so which is it? Are they adults, or are they kids who need to be supervised every second of their lives?

Kids already are supposed to be supervised... certainly at least on school grounds, by adults supervising them in person. A camera would just catch what the adults in the room might miss.

You know, same reason adults are monitored by surveillance in the convenience store, the subway station, etc... basically everywhere that can afford to invest in it.

It's got nothing to do with age; or if it does, the idea of surveillance in schools is probably disproportionately more opposed, suggesting a double-standard against monitoring the young.

I must say, you seem oddly obsessed with this one particular opinion of mine.

Anyway, same point applies. "Different misconceptions from different societies." Not enough to warrant the "we're right and all of them were wrong" response. I'm sure some future society would say the same about ours... perhaps in a "you know, they had it right the first time around" context.
Last edited by LimaUniformNovemberAlpha on Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Kernen » Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:05 am

Geneviev wrote:
Kernen wrote:
When 16 year olds can no longer void the contracts they make, manage assets without a trustee, and manage their own legal representation without the benefit of a guardian ad litem, I think that could be fair. Seems unreasonable to benefit from the protections of being a minor without bearing the accompanying burdens otherwise.

They already work and pay taxes. They should be allowed to decide what's done with their taxes.

Greed and Death wrote:
Kid you have impulse control limitations until you are 25 ?

People are different. And there are already a lot of people younger than 25 who can vote.

Corporations pay taxes. Should they vote?

Children don't bear the full measures of risk of living in society. Ergo, they do not merit the full benefits. When 16 year olds are ineligible to be tried as minors and the rest of the things I mention come to pass, we can reconsider.
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Postby Greed and Death » Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:44 am

Katganistan wrote:
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:There are exceptional juvenile murder cases that require that, especially when the kid is a budding psychopath. Psychopathy won't go away, ever.

Yes. EXCEPTIONAL. As in, the exception to the general rule.
Seriously, we don't even put most adult murderers away for life, and you want to throw away a youngster without attempting rehabilitation? When we know that for adolescents' brains and impulse control/reasoning aren't fully matured until 25?

Most 16 year olds do not have the resources for a good legal team so they often get stiffer sentences than adults who can liquidate their home for a lawyer who will get statements of support from everyone who was your friend since you were a child.
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Postby Greed and Death » Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:49 am

Geneviev wrote:
Kernen wrote:
When 16 year olds can no longer void the contracts they make, manage assets without a trustee, and manage their own legal representation without the benefit of a guardian ad litem, I think that could be fair. Seems unreasonable to benefit from the protections of being a minor without bearing the accompanying burdens otherwise.

They already work and pay taxes. They should be allowed to decide what's done with their taxes.

Greed and Death wrote:
Kid you have impulse control limitations until you are 25 ?

People are different. And there are already a lot of people younger than 25 who can vote.


18 was a historical fluke before scientific knowledge came to understand brain development.

Now with greater understanding of human development I think a revisiting of age and pushing it older would be more in line with science. There are several places I might do this as well most notable age of consent.
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Postby The Blaatschapen » Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:04 am

Greed and Death wrote:
Geneviev wrote:They already work and pay taxes. They should be allowed to decide what's done with their taxes.


People are different. And there are already a lot of people younger than 25 who can vote.


18 was a historical fluke before scientific knowledge came to understand brain development.

Now with greater understanding of human development I think a revisiting of age and pushing it older would be more in line with science. There are several places I might do this as well most notable age of consent.


Good luck getting teenagers to stop fucking.

though modern technology seems to be doing that trick.


And as long as age when one can join the military is not earlier than the age one can vote, I am sort of fine with revisiting this.
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Postby Greed and Death » Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:12 am

The Blaatschapen wrote:
Greed and Death wrote:
18 was a historical fluke before scientific knowledge came to understand brain development.

Now with greater understanding of human development I think a revisiting of age and pushing it older would be more in line with science. There are several places I might do this as well most notable age of consent.


Good luck getting teenagers to stop fucking.

though modern technology seems to be doing that trick.


And as long as age when one can join the military is not earlier than the age one can vote, I am sort of fine with revisiting this.


I d not mind teenagers being involved with other teenagers. It is when Sally 18 year old gets with 38 year old Sketch that I am seeking to limit you see the same and similar power imbalances that arise when Susie 16 year old gets with 30 year old perv.

So raising age of consent and having additional romeo and Juliet laws seems prudent.
Last edited by Greed and Death on Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby East Gondwana » Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:14 am

Given that the human brain doesn't finish developing until around the age of 25, yeah I'm gonna stick with teenagers being children. Adolescent yes, but being adolescent and going through puberty doesn't make you an adult.

Nature doesn't have strict clear cut lines. Puberty is the beginning of the body developing into its adult form, with emotional maturity taking a while linger to fully develop. It's a long process of transition.
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Postby Bunker 51 » Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:46 am

This is an interesting topic. Clearly there's a lot of ways to approach the idea, but in a perfect world I'd say that a system should be set up to determine dependency- the major determining factor that many colleges use in their choices for financial support. A minor is most often a dependent: they would not be able to supply for themselves if left on their own, and therefore rely on their parents (with an established income and knowledge of how to spend it). However, there are many adults that are well above 25 years old and have a fully developed brain, yet they still cannot support themselves effectively. Does that mean they would be classified as minors? In my mind- yes. On the other end of the spectrum, especially in larger families, as teenagers reach eligible ages to start working, they get part- or full-time jobs. They get experience on spending, and could most likely support themselves if forced to. Should those teenagers be treated as adults? Again- yes.
A possible system would be tests or government monitoring that classifies an individual as a child until they prove themselves competent in society and can function in a market. Children would remain in school and take more advanced classes as they age, and would be subject to the same limitations as minors normally would- no tobacco or alcohol, etc.
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Postby East Gondwana » Wed Oct 02, 2019 8:11 am

Tigladinutheres wrote:
East Gondwana wrote:Given that the human brain doesn't finish developing until around the age of 25, yeah I'm gonna stick with teenagers being children. Adolescent yes, but being adolescent and going through puberty doesn't make you an adult.

Nature doesn't have strict clear cut lines. Puberty is the beginning of the body developing into its adult form, with emotional maturity taking a while linger to fully develop. It's a long process of transition.

Too long.

Many human societies don't exactly make it easier with things like high school and disingenuous or even disturbing attitudes regarding how teens and young people "should" be.
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Postby Diopolis » Wed Oct 02, 2019 8:49 am

Liriena wrote:Neither. That's kind of the whole point of calling them teenagers. They exist in the complicated and often distressing grey area between maturity and immaturity. I think there's an argument to be made for allowing teenagers past a certain age (let's say 16) to have more agency than children without outright treating them as we would adults.

We sort of already have that. Well, to an extent.
16 year olds in my state can’t vote, but they can drive, work(and to some extent control their own money), and are usually reaching the point in high school where they have significant amounts of control over their classes.
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Postby Geneviev » Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:34 pm

Kernen wrote:
Geneviev wrote:They already work and pay taxes. They should be allowed to decide what's done with their taxes.


People are different. And there are already a lot of people younger than 25 who can vote.

Corporations pay taxes. Should they vote?

Children don't bear the full measures of risk of living in society. Ergo, they do not merit the full benefits. When 16 year olds are ineligible to be tried as minors and the rest of the things I mention come to pass, we can reconsider.

If 16 year olds can't vote, they shouldn't have to pay taxes either.
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Postby Greed and Death » Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:41 pm

Geneviev wrote:
Kernen wrote:Corporations pay taxes. Should they vote?

Children don't bear the full measures of risk of living in society. Ergo, they do not merit the full benefits. When 16 year olds are ineligible to be tried as minors and the rest of the things I mention come to pass, we can reconsider.

If 16 year olds can't vote, they shouldn't have to pay taxes either.


Ok minimal age to work is now 18, no more summer jobs for the kids.
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Postby Kernen » Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:42 pm

Geneviev wrote:
Kernen wrote:Corporations pay taxes. Should they vote?

Children don't bear the full measures of risk of living in society. Ergo, they do not merit the full benefits. When 16 year olds are ineligible to be tried as minors and the rest of the things I mention come to pass, we can reconsider.

If 16 year olds can't vote, they shouldn't have to pay taxes either.

I'm comfortable raising the working age to 18.

Its interesting how that is the only metric you go for, and you ignore the rest.
Last edited by Kernen on Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Cekoviu » Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:21 pm

Kernen wrote:
Geneviev wrote:If 16 year olds can't vote, they shouldn't have to pay taxes either.

I'm comfortable raising the working age to 18.

Its interesting how that is the only metric you go for, and you ignore the rest.

Absolutely fucking not.
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Postby Kernen » Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:24 pm

Cekoviu wrote:
Kernen wrote:I'm comfortable raising the working age to 18.

Its interesting how that is the only metric you go for, and you ignore the rest.

Absolutely fucking not.


If the necessary of the proposition isn't good enough for you, there's no reason to compromise on the sufficient.
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Postby Europa Undivided » Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:25 pm

Teenagers something in between adults and children.

Independent and self sufficient enough to be above children, but too much of fools and filled with too many hormones to be adults.
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Postby Katganistan » Sat Oct 05, 2019 8:10 am

Greed and Death wrote:
Geneviev wrote:They already work and pay taxes. They should be allowed to decide what's done with their taxes.


People are different. And there are already a lot of people younger than 25 who can vote.


18 was a historical fluke before scientific knowledge came to understand brain development.

Now with greater understanding of human development I think a revisiting of age and pushing it older would be more in line with science. There are several places I might do this as well most notable age of consent.

The voting, smoking and drinking ages were lowered to 18 when we were sending kids to be killed in Vietnam, because if you were old enough to be drafted to kill and/or die, then why weren't you old enough to drink and smoke and vote.

The ages for those have been raised since the 1970s, although I believe drinking age has been raised on base to whatever the local laws allow, and smoking age restrictions are exempt.

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Postby Katganistan » Sat Oct 05, 2019 8:13 am

Tigladinutheres wrote:snip



Warned for editing an ad into someone else's post/advertising on the forum. The post has been moved to the evidence locker in case it needs review.
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Postby Katganistan » Sat Oct 05, 2019 8:16 am

Geneviev wrote:
Kernen wrote:Corporations pay taxes. Should they vote?

Children don't bear the full measures of risk of living in society. Ergo, they do not merit the full benefits. When 16 year olds are ineligible to be tried as minors and the rest of the things I mention come to pass, we can reconsider.

If 16 year olds can't vote, they shouldn't have to pay taxes either.

Then they shouldn't work.

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Postby Page » Sat Oct 05, 2019 8:21 am

Katganistan wrote:
Greed and Death wrote:
18 was a historical fluke before scientific knowledge came to understand brain development.

Now with greater understanding of human development I think a revisiting of age and pushing it older would be more in line with science. There are several places I might do this as well most notable age of consent.

The voting, smoking and drinking ages were lowered to 18 when we were sending kids to be killed in Vietnam, because if you were old enough to be drafted to kill and/or die, then why weren't you old enough to drink and smoke and vote.

The ages for those have been raised since the 1970s, although I believe drinking age has been raised on base to whatever the local laws allow, and smoking age restrictions are exempt.


The raise in the drinking age to 21 came from the federal government. They couldn't legally force states to raise it, but they threatened to deprive states that wouldn't comply of highway funding. A few states resisted anyway but soon enough they all decided losing the money wasn't worth it.

And the drinking age has stayed 21 ever since, partly due to well-intentioned but fanatical organizations like MADD, and also because of cherry-picked data. It was found that the number of drunk driving accidents among 18 - 20 year olds decreased, but they conveniently ignored the fact that the number spiked for 21 year olds and overall just as many people were dying as before.
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