Korea-Japan Trade War and Security Repercussions

[New haven america]

So where do you think the most of The Kingdoms of Goguryeo or Balhae were located at?

Ah, that wasn't Chinese at the time, so sounded misleading.

How is saying they ruled over large areas of China misleading? It seems pretty straight forward...

[Arumdaum]

And?

Seems odd to sue them then for their past.

These corporations benefited from using these individuals as forced labor. Why not give them some of that money?

[Arumdaum]

It is very asian not wanting to loose face by acknowledging past mistakes.

As an Asian history buff, I very much agree this is the root of the issue, it's their culture.

The "losing face" thing is heavily overstated by Westerners and at this point is mostly a stereotype. It's not at all the root of the issue.

[Arumdaum]

The "losing face" thing is heavily overstated by Westerners and at this point is mostly a stereotype. It's not at all the root of the issue.

Thepeopl is asian.....

Koreans are not at all worried about looking embarrassed from this. They're outraged over past atrocities and want justice for its victims.

Japanese people are not worried about looking embarrassed either. They feel like they've done enough and that Korea is being unreasonable.

[NERVUN]

As a practical matter what happens in these kinds of situations is that the ROK will pile up some number of its citizens' claims, press them with the Japanese and arrive at some kind of global settlement. It may be nice to think that the courts of one nation can enforce judgements against the nationals of a different nation but there's nothing in international law that compels that at all.

Had the US not been debilitated by allowing the Electoral College to install a narcissistic, infantile sociopath in the Oval Office it could conceivably help its two most important allies in Asia resolve their dispute. But in the event, unless there's some personal benefit to Trump in any of this, it won't get involved, instead growing weaker while its adversaries grow stronger and its allies make plans for a world where the US doesn't count.

Can you fuckin' just
dispense, with Trump
He's absolutely irrelevant frankly, and bringing him up in a discussion about Japan and Korea, two nations with long-standing feuds and scars, is sort of asinine. This doesn't involve America at all and it's not that serious either.
Calm your shit.

Actually it DOES have something to do with Trump. Previously both Korea and Japan would rely on the US to... hrmm, big brother (as in an actual older brother, not 1984) the respective parties into line. The US provided both the diplomatic connection AND the strong arm to allow both sides to grumble to their respective nationalistic hot heads "I was gonna REALLY stick it to 'em, but the US..."

However, since January of 2017, we have a president who doesn't give a fig about East Asia and America's position or needs here.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Seems odd to sue them then for their past.

These corporations benefited from using these individuals as forced labor. Why not give them some of that money?

Because it seems these are things that were already hashed out on the 1965 treaty. Why drag it? It’s not that I don’t empathize, it’s just that this seems like a pull and push game. *shrug*

[NERVUN]

Ok, a bit longer POV.

So this is a thorny one. BOTH sides are being stupid and BOTH sides have, I feel, miscalculated badly and are now locked into a dance that neither probably really want and will end up biting them in tender parts. To start with, let's get one thing out of the way, the Empire of Japan's annexation of Korea was horrible in the extreme. It's actions against the Korean people were unjust and have left scars. Japan SHOULD do more instead of attempting to hide behind legal niceties and counting time for everyone who was alive to just die.

That said, this is also a direct result of Korean politics more than anything. After the democratization of Korea you have the conservative Right who are the direct descendants of the old military dictatorships who spent a great chunk of time since the Korean War hating North Korea and the Left, and then you have the liberal Left who spent the time of the dictatorships being repressed and tared with the brush of North Korea and hating that. For successive Korean governments, whenever the approval rating dips, they of course start beating the drum of the outside enemies. For the right, it's been North Korea and (somewhat) Japan. For the left, it's been Japan. For the left, Japan is a great target, it allows South Korea to play the victim card, and also because a LOT of the various military dictatorships (and thus the parents/grandparents of the current conservatives) were stocked full of people who collaborated with or profited from Japanese rule. So by beating the historical wrongs drum, they can whack Japan, get the Korean public to focus on being outraged at Japan instead of the government, and at the same time, tar the conservatives. The conservatives do the same with North Korea for the same reason, just replace Japan with Kim and the conservatives with the liberals.

Like I said in the above post, previously Korea's courts have ruled that yes, the treaty DID cover individual claims or that the suits were past the statue of limitations. Suddenly however Korea's courts decided that no, no, the treaty DIDN'T cover this and that Japan really wasn't sorry enough. So here we are. Probably a conservative government (Or a more engaged US) would have managed this and after both sides did the stiff-tailed cat walk in front of each other, they would have backed down.

The current president, Moon, however is from the left and came to power on the wave of anger regarding his rightest predecessor's comfort women agreement. Moon wants peace with North Korea and is more than willing to buddy up with Kim. That leaves Japan as his target. Thus he left the ruling to stand beyond some smirking hand wringing that "We cannot interfere in our country's courts." Ignoring the treaty stipulated dispute resolution mechanisms was just proof in the pudding that this was something Moon wanted to happen and didn't care about the damage between Korean-Japanese relations.

However I think he miscalculated. One of the things Moon did when he came into power was tear up the comfort women agreement between Japan and Korea. The one that was supposed to have settled that matter for all time and did so bilaterally. In this, I think he goofed. I do not know why Moon though that this wouldn't produce a very bad reaction in Japan, but for Abe, it was a slap in the face. Now, I don't like Abe, and it is VERY obvious he does not believe the comfort women, but the man has stated his legacy in solving that problem. Abe is not gonna get his Article 9 revision, this is obvious from the last election. But he could at least point to the agreement between him and ROK President Park as a place where he made his mark. Moon in effect pissed on that. More so, his government started up immediately targeting Japan with insulting rhetoric and demands. For Abe (and indeed for many Japanese), it was yet again more South Korean goalpost moving. For Japan, it seems that every time the issue seems to be settled, Korea turns around and says, "Oh, no, see, you're not sorry ENOUGH. NOW you must say sorry while kneeling." And again "Of you're not sorry enough, you must say sorry while kneeling in pig shit." etc. With every apology or otherwise, Korea seems to move the goalposts more and more (Thus an apology has no meaning if the person saying it isn't sorry, and the person receiving ins't willing to accept it). Frankly Japan is tired of being reminded of something that happened more than 70 years ago that does not acknowledge all that Japan has done to apologize since then.

However, Abe ALSO miscalculated. The trade dispute is obviously about the ruling and (Ala Trump) is an attempt to weaponize trade to answer this dispute. However, he obviously thought that Moon wouldn't endanger Korea's security by either annoying the US or withdrawing from the security agreement. Obviously he miscalculated, Moon was more than willing to in order to be seen as being tough on Japan and obviously he felt that Trump, as long as he got his photo ops with Kim, doesn't care about the spat between Japan and Korea and will simply not do anything.

So now both sides are busy doing very petty and annoying things to each other, stirring up their respective populations, and generally making this part of the globe that much more dangerous. Both sides jumped into this assuming the other would back down, in may ways it's akin to the build up of WWI.

[Thepeopl]

The Japanese prime minister did apologise for "comfort women" in 1994. See link.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_Women%27s_Fund

The forced industrial labour though haven't had their apologies yet.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aso_Min ... ontroversy

And I agree, both are acting silly.
I think that a fair compromise would be, no money, just heartfelt apologies.

[Parhe]

I don't know how anyone could defend the 2015 agreement on comfort women. It was quickly forced through by an unpopular president, later impeached, without consulting any of the actual comfort women and was immediately met with anger in South Korea, foremost by the actual surviving comfort women, as it left out what they wanted most which was Japan's government to formally accept legal responsibility, not money. Furthermore, the agreement required the removal of a statue put in place to honor/remember the comfort women, which makes it hard to believe the Japanese government was genuinely apologizing and trying to make amends.

We also cannot forget, even at the best of times, Japan has yet to ever revoke its silly claim on South Korean controlled Liancourt, making it harder to believe the country is actually trying to move beyond its imperialist past.

[Thepeopl]

I don't know how anyone could defend the 2015 agreement on comfort women. It was quickly forced through by an unpopular president, later impeached, without consulting any of the actual comfort women and was immediately met with anger in South Korea, foremost by the actual surviving comfort women, as it left out what they wanted most which was Japan's government to formally accept legal responsibility, not money. Furthermore, the agreement required the removal of a statue put in place to honor/remember the comfort women, which makes it hard to believe the Japanese government was genuinely apologizing and trying to make amends.

We also cannot forget, even at the best of times, Japan has yet to ever revoke its silly claim on South Korean controlled Liancourt, making it harder to believe the country is actually trying to move beyond its imperialist past.

I wasn't talking about the 2015 agreements . 1994.

[Parhe]

I don't know how anyone could defend the 2015 agreement on comfort women. It was quickly forced through by an unpopular president, later impeached, without consulting any of the actual comfort women and was immediately met with anger in South Korea, foremost by the actual surviving comfort women, as it left out what they wanted most which was Japan's government to formally accept legal responsibility, not money. Furthermore, the agreement required the removal of a statue put in place to honor/remember the comfort women, which makes it hard to believe the Japanese government was genuinely apologizing and trying to make amends.

We also cannot forget, even at the best of times, Japan has yet to ever revoke its silly claim on South Korean controlled Liancourt, making it harder to believe the country is actually trying to move beyond its imperialist past.

I wasn't talking about the 2015 agreements . 1994.

What a coincidence, I also wasn't talking about your post. Rather, the post right above yours that mentions the 2015 agreement.

[Arumdaum]

I don't know how anyone could defend the 2015 agreement on comfort women. It was quickly forced through by an unpopular president, later impeached, without consulting any of the actual comfort women and was immediately met with anger in South Korea, foremost by the actual surviving comfort women, as it left out what they wanted most which was Japan's government to formally accept legal responsibility, not money. Furthermore, the agreement required the removal of a statue put in place to honor/remember the comfort women, which makes it hard to believe the Japanese government was genuinely apologizing and trying to make amends.

We also cannot forget, even at the best of times, Japan has yet to ever revoke its silly claim on South Korean controlled Liancourt, making it harder to believe the country is actually trying to move beyond its imperialist past.

The 2015 agreement was ridiculous and poorly thought-out. It was pushed on SK by the US in order to put the issue at rest and try to get SK and Japan to cooperate against China, but was done without any consultation of the former comfort women themselves, making the situation worse.

Then you have THAAD, which even previous conservative governments wouldn't put into place (even after the US offered it for free), but was finally installed after the brief unelected Hwang Kyo-ahn acting presidency.

[NERVUN]

I don't know how anyone could defend the 2015 agreement on comfort women. It was quickly forced through by an unpopular president, later impeached, without consulting any of the actual comfort women and was immediately met with anger in South Korea, foremost by the actual surviving comfort women, as it left out what they wanted most which was Japan's government to formally accept legal responsibility, not money. Furthermore, the agreement required the removal of a statue put in place to honor/remember the comfort women, which makes it hard to believe the Japanese government was genuinely apologizing and trying to make amends.

Oh, you mean the one erected in front of the Japanese embassy, or the one in front of the consulate? Both are, arguably, in violation of international law.

But that's beside the point. Again, SK unilaterally abridged a treaty. It does make it a bit hard to trust SK's word on things.

We also cannot forget, even at the best of times, Japan has yet to ever revoke its silly claim on South Korean controlled Liancourt, making it harder to believe the country is actually trying to move beyond its imperialist past.

Ah, these would be the same Liancourt Rocks that SK unilaterally grabbed, again without consultation.

The second part is just a bloody stupid claim that seriously... really? You're going with that?

[Greed and Death]

I don't know how anyone could defend the 2015 agreement on comfort women. It was quickly forced through by an unpopular president, later impeached, without consulting any of the actual comfort women and was immediately met with anger in South Korea, foremost by the actual surviving comfort women, as it left out what they wanted most which was Japan's government to formally accept legal responsibility, not money. Furthermore, the agreement required the removal of a statue put in place to honor/remember the comfort women, which makes it hard to believe the Japanese government was genuinely apologizing and trying to make amends.

Oh, you mean the one erected in front of the Japanese embassy, or the one in front of the consulate? Both are, arguably, in violation of international law.

But that's beside the point. Again, SK unilaterally abridged a treaty. It does make it a bit hard to trust SK's word on things.

We also cannot forget, even at the best of times, Japan has yet to ever revoke its silly claim on South Korean controlled Liancourt, making it harder to believe the country is actually trying to move beyond its imperialist past.

Ah, these would be the same Liancourt Rocks that SK unilaterally grabbed, again without consultation.

The second part is just a bloody stupid claim that seriously... really? You're going with that?

Pay more Money to the Koreans.

Dokdo has always been Korean Territory the Koreans do not need to consult with Japan about what to do with their territory.

[Baltenstein]

Refounded Greater Co-Prosperity Sphere when?

[Hanafuridake]

So where do you think the most of The Kingdoms of Goguryeo or Balhae were located at?

Ah, that wasn't Chinese at the time, so sounded misleading.

Referring to Goguryeo as Korea is also extremely anachronistic, especially when there were a bunch of other Korean kingdoms on the peninsula at the time. It's not really relevant to the issues that Joseon Korea faced, with the thousand years time distance between them, but misinformation is annoying.

[US-SSR]

Can you fuckin' just
dispense, with Trump
He's absolutely irrelevant frankly, and bringing him up in a discussion about Japan and Korea, two nations with long-standing feuds and scars, is sort of asinine. This doesn't involve America at all and it's not that serious either.
Calm your shit.

Actually it DOES have something to do with Trump. Previously both Korea and Japan would rely on the US to... hrmm, big brother (as in an actual older brother, not 1984) the respective parties into line. The US provided both the diplomatic connection AND the strong arm to allow both sides to grumble to their respective nationalistic hot heads "I was gonna REALLY stick it to 'em, but the US..."

However, since January of 2017, we have a president who doesn't give a fig about East Asia and America's position or needs here.

One of the major consequences of the failure of the Electoral College in 2016 is that more and more of these major and minor conflicts that the US was once able to manage and/or ameliorate are going to boil up. As nations like, say, China, take advantage of the situations the influence of the US diminishes. Unless something changes, and that sooner rather than later, the days of the US as a power to be reckoned with in the wider world are going to be numbered.

[Saiwania]

100% on Japan's side on this. Japan is greater than Korea based off the quality of their respective histories, so far as which developed the most first. South Korea should be content with ranking above China in terms of ancestral prestige. That is the Korean people's role in my view. To be a genetic bridge people between Japan and China that keeps both peoples separated out enough. If I consider Japan to be greater than China, I'd say Korea is below Japan but above China.

It'll be a sad day indeed, if I have no choice one of these days, but to acknowledge China as being greater than either. I'd much rather Japan had much of their empire back, than for that to happen, which appears almost inevitable given the world's choice to keep showering China with money to produce everything so cheaply.

China only ever grows more powerful every year, and they really do need a great fall for the world to be in a truly right place from my perspective.

[Kowani]

100% on Japan's side on this. Japan is greater than Korea based off the quality of their respective histories, so far as which developed the most first. South Korea should be content with ranking above China in terms of ancestral prestige. That is the Korean people's role in my view. To be a genetic bridge people between Japan and China that keeps both peoples separated out enough. If I consider Japan to be greater than China, I'd say Korea is below Japan but above China.

It'll be a sad day indeed, if I have no choice one of these days, but to acknowledge China as being greater than either. I'd much rather Japan had much of their empire back, than for that to happen, which appears almost inevitable given the world's choice to keep showering China with money to produce everything so cheaply.

China only ever grows more powerful every year, and they really do need a great fall for the world to be in a truly right place from my perspective.

So, you failed History.

[Cappuccina]

100% on Japan's side on this. Japan is greater than Korea based off the quality of their respective histories, so far as which developed the most first. South Korea should be content with ranking above China in terms of ancestral prestige. That is the Korean people's role in my view. To be a genetic bridge people between Japan and China that keeps both peoples separated out enough. If I consider Japan to be greater than China, I'd say Korea is below Japan but above China.

It'll be a sad day indeed, if I have no choice one of these days, but to acknowledge China as being greater than either. I'd much rather Japan had much of their empire back, than for that to happen, which appears almost inevitable given the world's choice to keep showering China with money to produce everything so cheaply.

China only ever grows more powerful every year, and they really do need a great fall for the world to be in a truly right place from my perspective.

So, you failed History.

All of his posts are incredibly bizzare.

[Kowani]

So, you failed History.

All of his posts are incredibly bizzare.

It would be fascinating, if it wasn’t so sad.

[New haven america]

So, you failed History.

All of his posts are incredibly bizzare.

That is called an understatement.

[Hatsunia]

It'll be a sad day indeed, if I have no choice one of these days, but to acknowledge China as being greater than either. I'd much rather Japan had much of their empire back, than for that to happen, which appears almost inevitable given the world's choice to keep showering China with money to produce everything so cheaply.

As bad as the Chinese government is, Japanese imperialism was still much worse.

[Arumdaum]

100% on Japan's side on this. Japan is greater than Korea based off the quality of their respective histories, so far as which developed the most first. South Korea should be content with ranking above China in terms of ancestral prestige. That is the Korean people's role in my view. To be a genetic bridge people between Japan and China that keeps both peoples separated out enough. If I consider Japan to be greater than China, I'd say Korea is below Japan but above China.

It'll be a sad day indeed, if I have no choice one of these days, but to acknowledge China as being greater than either. I'd much rather Japan had much of their empire back, than for that to happen, which appears almost inevitable given the world's choice to keep showering China with money to produce everything so cheaply.

China only ever grows more powerful every year, and they really do need a great fall for the world to be in a truly right place from my perspective.

bruh

[Salandriagado]

And?

Seems odd to sue them then for their past.

If my employer doesn't pay me, then someone else takes over the business, I'm still suing the new owners for the money that they owe me.