Why do we champion socialism/communism anyway?

[Pannerstone]

I said average, obviously minorities had it bad

the point is, they were fed and the economies of these nations were doing well

It only took the mass-oppression of all the undesirables to ensure everyone else had a full belly and riches to spare.

Doesn't sound like a pleasant system to me.

which is more than Communism ever provided.

What do you think Communism even is?

Communists: At least we oppressed and murdered EVERYONE instead of just the minorities!

[Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia]

https://archive.org/stream/ToozeAdamThe ... y_djvu.txt
As a matter of fact, had Nazi Germany never declared war on anyone and carried on with their monetary policies, their economy would have collapsed due to their unsustainable hikes in military spending at the expense of the civilian sector, escalating number of debt due to the MEFO bills (Which were an elaborate fraud designed to hide and finance German expenditure on re-armanent), and of course, a decline in trade and failed attempts at complete autarky. Adam Tooze's Wages of Destruction: The Making and Breaking of the Nazi Economy is a good resource on this topic.

I'm well aware of Hitlerian economics. That doesn't change the point at all.

It does, because this goes to show that fascist economics were in the end doomed towards failure, regardless of whether or not had they declared war on a good portion of Europe and suffered severe military defeats. Even Franco had to move towards a mainstream market economy once his corporatist attempts at economic reform along the lines of fascism and national syndicalism failed spectacularly in Spain, and when he died, his regime came crashing down at the hand of King Juan Carlos.

[Pannerstone]

I'm well aware of Hitlerian economics. That doesn't change the point at all.

It does, because this goes to show that fascist economics were in the end doomed towards failure, regardless of whether or not had they declared war on a good portion of Europe and suffered severe military defeats. Even Franco had to move towards a mainstream market economy once his corporatist attempts at economic reform along the lines of fascism and national syndicalism failed spectacularly in Spain, and when he died, his regime came crashing down at the hand of King Juan Carlos.

ignorant, it didn't come "Crashing down"

Franco turned it over, peacefully

[Ifreann]

Calling Marxism idealism is pretty hilarious and reveals that you don't have even a basic acquaintance with its philosophy

Marxism is literally idealism!

it's the HOPE that you can transition from a socialist society into a perfect communist one.....

I used to be a Marxist then I figured out that it is literally against human nature.

"I was never a Marxist, but I think it sounds more convincing if I say I was"

[Alexiandra]

Marxism is literally idealism!

it's the HOPE that you can transition from a socialist society into a perfect communist one.....

I used to be a Marxist then I figured out that it is literally against human nature.

"I was never a Marxist, but I think it sounds more convincing if I say I was"

Truly. They couldn't have made it any more obvious if they'd tried.

[Pannerstone]

Marxism is literally idealism!

it's the HOPE that you can transition from a socialist society into a perfect communist one.....

I used to be a Marxist then I figured out that it is literally against human nature.

"I was never a Marxist, but I think it sounds more convincing if I say I was"

meh, to be fair, more of a Maoist-Stalinist

[Washington Resistance Army]

I'm well aware of Hitlerian economics. That doesn't change the point at all.

It does, because this goes to show that fascist economics were in the end doomed towards failure, regardless of whether or not had they declared war on a good portion of Europe and suffered severe military defeats. Even Franco had to move towards a mainstream market economy once his corporatist attempts at economic reform along the lines of fascism and national syndicalism failed spectacularly in Spain, and when he died, his regime came crashing down at the hand of King Juan Carlos.

The potential longevity or lack thereof of Hitlerian economics was never brought up or in question. What was said is that in the real world fascism quite clearly is capable of more than communism.

Franco also never pursued national syndicalism, the NatSyns had lost any and all power after the civil war. He pursued extreme autarky in a nation not super well suited for it and thus it predictably failed.

[Alexiandra]

I'm beginning to wonder at the average age of the folks in this thread. People are having a very difficult time grasping basic concepts, and repeating the same tired arguments over and over again.

[GLORIOUS FALGSC]

This actually isn't incorrect imo. Fascism might have been killed but it took most of the world to do it. At least from looking at history it's capable of a great deal more than communism.

https://archive.org/stream/ToozeAdamThe ... y_djvu.txt
As a matter of fact, had Nazi Germany never declared war on anyone and carried on with their monetary policies, their economy would have collapsed due to their unsustainable hikes in military spending at the expense of the civilian sector, escalating number of debt due to the MEFO bills (Which were an elaborate fraud designed to hide and finance German expenditure on re-armanent), and of course, a decline in trade and failed attempts at complete autarky. Adam Tooze's Wages of Destruction: The Making and Breaking of the Nazi Economy is a good resource on this topic.

nazism is not fascism. they are fundamentally different. they are similar - they're both nationalist ideologies, but they're like oranges and lemons; they're both fruit and similar in a few ways, but more different than the same.

Italy, the Federal State of Austria, and to an extent francoist Spain and Metaxas' Greece were the only truly Fascist states that ever existed, with Franco's Spain and Metaxas' Greece being more iffy because they never declared they were fascist. Italy and Austria were both officially fascist (actual fascism, e.g. the one made by the founder, Benito Mussolini, and Austrofascism, promoted and embraced by the Fatherland's Front). Nazi Germany wasn't and actually didn't really appeal too much to Fascism and the Fascist state s of both Italy (until 1935-ish - were allied with France and Britain to protect Austria until the Second Italo-Ethiopian War) and Austria hated Hitlerist Germany and went through a civil war which pitted fascists against nazi's in the mid 1930's. Nazi Germany didn't like Italy or Italians all too much either, seeing the "Mediterranean Race" as culturally and psychologically inferior to the northern Aryan and Nordic races, seeing them as more "lazy" and emphasized this using Italy's poor military record.

EDIT: included some emphasis on Hitlerist germany, German opinions on Italy, and added the Austrian Civil War

[Pannerstone]

I'm beginning to wonder at the average age of the folks in this thread. People are having a very difficult time grasping basic concepts, and repeating the same tired arguments over and over again.

me to, most communists I know/met in real life are edgey white teenagers who wear Russian fur hats are white and are in community college.

dyed hair is a bonus

[Nakena]

I'm beginning to wonder at the average age of the folks in this thread. People are having a very difficult time grasping basic concepts, and repeating the same tired arguments over and over again.

How about the distinct possibility that other people perhaps perceive the world differently alltogether?

[Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia]

It does, because this goes to show that fascist economics were in the end doomed towards failure, regardless of whether or not had they declared war on a good portion of Europe and suffered severe military defeats. Even Franco had to move towards a mainstream market economy once his corporatist attempts at economic reform along the lines of fascism and national syndicalism failed spectacularly in Spain, and when he died, his regime came crashing down at the hand of King Juan Carlos.

ignorant, it didn't come "Crashing down"

Franco turned it over, peacefully

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1981_Span ... at_attempt
Doesn't sound "peaceful" to me. The democratic transition was certainly not a "kumbaya" peacemaker affair, and Franco never democratized the regime, he only named Juan Carlos as the next Spanish monarch, and after Franco's death, Juan dismantled his regime, one by one, though it was nearly restored when neo-francoist officers tried to coup Adolfo Suárez's government in 1981.

[Alexiandra]

I'm beginning to wonder at the average age of the folks in this thread. People are having a very difficult time grasping basic concepts, and repeating the same tired arguments over and over again.

me to, most communists I know/met in real life are edgey white teenagers who wear Russian fur hats are white and are in community college.

dyed hair is a bonus

So you haven't met any communists then? Cool.

I will never understand conservatives' loathing for hair dye either

[Torrocca]

It only took the mass-oppression of all the undesirables to ensure everyone else had a full belly and riches to spare.

Doesn't sound like a pleasant system to me.



What do you think Communism even is?

Communists: At least we oppressed and murdered EVERYONE instead of just the minorities!

Okay, just completely disregard my question. That's cool too. Totally love that healthy form of debate.

[GLORIOUS FALGSC]

ignorant, it didn't come "Crashing down"

Franco turned it over, peacefully

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1981_Span ... at_attempt
Doesn't sound "peaceful" to me. The democratic transition was certainly not a "kumbaya" peacemaker affair, and Franco never democratized the regime, he only named Juan Carlos as the next Spanish monarch, and after Franco's death, Juan dismantled his regime, one by one, though it was nearly restored when neo-francoist officers tried to coup Adolfo Suárez's government in 1981.

fun fact about that, actually: Franco offered the Spanish Crown to the one, the only, Otto von Habsburg. he declined as he didn't want to bring the habsburgs back into spain. rip BLESSED KARL

[Pannerstone]

Communists: At least we oppressed and murdered EVERYONE instead of just the minorities!

Okay, just completely disregard my question. That's cool too. Totally love that healthy form of debate.

Communism is the belief in a classess/stateless society, hence, impossible with Humans(barring creating a hive-mind)

[GLORIOUS FALGSC]

Okay, just completely disregard my question. That's cool too. Totally love that healthy form of debate.

Communism is the belief in a classess/stateless society, hence, impossible with Humans(barring creating a hive-mind)

i personally feel that's the strongest point against Communism. it can't work because we're greedy, powerhungry, violent motherfuckers who only care mostly about ourselves.

EDIT: yes, my name is ironic with me saying this point. i know. shut up.

[Genivaria]

Indeed self-perpetuation is a key requirement of an ideology.
Where does that leave fascism?

Fascism never failed on it's own, it was defeated militarily(which required a large amount of the world uniting to stop it)

That is funny actually Fascism has a higher success rate than communism, seeing as it actually existed.

So Fascism failed by one of it's own standards.
Don't start crap when you can't finish it.

[Czechostan]

It f**king sucks!

That's just like, your opinion man.

For all of its merits, capitalism concentrates a gross amount of capital in the hands of a small amount of people. For all of the people capitalism uplifted out of poverty, capitalism pushed dozens of people into poverty in the name of resource extraction and exploitation. Save for free marketeers, most everyone recognizes unworkable faults to the capitalist framework. Whether you are a communist or not, the idea of a better future with a more even distribution of wealth appeals to most people. A big part of why socialism/communism is championed is surely because of its promise of something better. Some people just think a different future is possible, or even inevitable, while others think this is the best it'll get. Just the way people are, really.

[Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia]

https://archive.org/stream/ToozeAdamThe ... y_djvu.txt
As a matter of fact, had Nazi Germany never declared war on anyone and carried on with their monetary policies, their economy would have collapsed due to their unsustainable hikes in military spending at the expense of the civilian sector, escalating number of debt due to the MEFO bills (Which were an elaborate fraud designed to hide and finance German expenditure on re-armanent), and of course, a decline in trade and failed attempts at complete autarky. Adam Tooze's Wages of Destruction: The Making and Breaking of the Nazi Economy is a good resource on this topic.

nazism is not fascism. they are fundamentally different. they are similar - they're both nationalist ideologies, but they're like oranges and lemons; they're both fruit and similar in a few ways, but more different than the same.

Italy, the Federal State of Austria, and to an extent francoist Spain and Metaxas' Greece were the only truly Fascist states that ever existed, with Franco's Spain and Metaxas' Greece being more iffy because they never declared they were fascist. Italy and Austria were both officially fascist (actual fascism, e.g. the one made by the founder, Benito Mussolini, and Austrofascism, promoted and embraced by the Fatherland's Front). Nazi Germany wasn't and actually didn't really appeal too much to Fascism and the Fascist state s of both Italy (until 1935-ish - were allied with France and Britain to protect Austria until the Second Italo-Ethiopian War) and Austria hated Germany.

No True Scotsman won't help you here. Nazism most definitely was a form of fascism, especially since it is listed in the infobox of fascist ideologies and historians overwhelmingly classify Nazism as a race-based and radical form of fascist ideology, sharing fascism's palingenetic nationalism, disdain for liberal democracy, marxism and anarchism, and militarism along with class collaborationism, but also incorporates fervent antisemitism, Pan-Germanism, and occultist pseudoscience . These sources in particular regard nazism as a form of fascist ideology:
Fulda, Bernhard. Press and Politics in the Weimar Republic. Oxford University Press, 2009. p. 65.
Carlsten, F. L. The Rise of Fascism. 2nd ed. University of California Press, 1982. p. 80.
Hugh R. Trevor-Roper (ed.), Gerhard L. Weinberg (ed.). Hitler's Table Talk 1941-1944: Secret Conversations. Enigma Books, 2008. p10
Evans, Richard J. (2003). The Coming of the Third Reich. New York: Penguin Books. ISBN 978-0-14-303469-8.
Evans, Richard J. (2005). The Third Reich in Power. New York: Penguin Books. ISBN 978-0-14-303790-3.

[Torrocca]

Okay, just completely disregard my question. That's cool too. Totally love that healthy form of debate.

Communism is the belief in a classess/stateless society, hence, impossible with Humans(barring creating a hive-mind)

No. Communism is a condition wherein a society is egalitarian, stateless, classless, moneyless, and the means of production are communally owned. This has happened before, and it's happening today.

[Alien Overlord]

Okay, just completely disregard my question. That's cool too. Totally love that healthy form of debate.

Communism is the belief in a classess/stateless society, hence, impossible with Humans(barring creating a hive-mind)

Or a digression to basically hunting and gathering-which i'm sure no one realistically wants to do.

[Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1981_Span ... at_attempt
Doesn't sound "peaceful" to me. The democratic transition was certainly not a "kumbaya" peacemaker affair, and Franco never democratized the regime, he only named Juan Carlos as the next Spanish monarch, and after Franco's death, Juan dismantled his regime, one by one, though it was nearly restored when neo-francoist officers tried to coup Adolfo Suárez's government in 1981.

fun fact about that, actually: Franco offered the Spanish Crown to the one, the only, Otto von Habsburg. he declined as he didn't want to bring the habsburgs back into spain. rip BLESSED KARL

The irony is that Blessed Karl is commonly portrayed as a socdem king in the Kaiserreich community, especially since many of those playing as Austria do their best to make the SDAP win.

[Czechostan]

i personally feel that's the strongest point against Communism. it can't work because we're greedy, powerhungry, violent motherfuckers who only care mostly about ourselves.

EDIT: yes, my name is ironic with me saying this point. i know. shut up.

Who do you know in your life who you would label a "greedy, powerhungry, violent motherfucker who mostly cares about him/herself"?

[Nakena]

me to, most communists I know/met in real life are edgey white teenagers who wear Russian fur hats are white and are in community college.

dyed hair is a bonus

So you haven't met any communists then? Cool.

I will never understand conservatives' loathing for hair dye either

Well, I for one never met a communist with russian fur hat.