[POLL] How willing are you to forgive certain actions?

[Beatitas]

When I was reading that, something struck me from something I've heard.

"If fire is fought with fire, the whole world will go up in flames."

Another example: The Red Army on the way to Berlin raped innocent German women. I don't know why exactly, but probably in repercussion for what the Germans did. Did the Soviets do right in your eyes?

No, they did not. Those women did nothing wrong.

Raping Hitler might actually be worse, though.

Yes, my point was that they did nothing wrong. What I meant was that the Red Army was doing it because the Germans also did things like that to innocent people.

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I judge actions based on the severity of the consequences, whether or not there was malice involved, and the balance of power. I also think about how my own actions have impacted others in the past and try to offer the same understanding I hope people would give me.

Some things that others have moral problems with I view as morally neutral, like pirating copyrighted media, illegal immigration, and personal drug use. The first question I ask: Has this action directly harmed someone else? The second question: Was the harm intentionally caused? So when it comes to indirect, unintentional harm like a person's addiction hurting people who care about them because they worry for the person's well-being, I don't think there is anything to forgive there because it is a personal struggle and there shouldn't be any animosity toward someone going through that struggle even though it might affect others.

I find it much worse for a powerful person to exploit and harm someone vulnerable, so abuse of children, animals, and those who are helpless is especially terrible.

My moral code stems from empathy, not legalism. So for example those who legally profit from war and those who legally profit from desperation, I see as far worse than someone who illegally steals because of their own desperation.

[Pacomia]

No, they did not. Those women did nothing wrong.

Raping Hitler might actually be worse, though.

Yes, my point was that they did nothing wrong. What I meant was that the Red Army was doing it because the Germans also did things like that to innocent people.

That’s fair. Still, I don’t think that gives them the right. Again, the citizens of Germany didn’t do it, the military and the government did. Even if the act was equal to the act by the Germans, that didn’t make it okay.

[Beatitas]

Yes, my point was that they did nothing wrong. What I meant was that the Red Army was doing it because the Germans also did things like that to innocent people.

That’s fair. Still, I don’t think that gives them the right. Again, the citizens of Germany didn’t do it, the military and the government did. Even if the act was equal to the act by the Germans, that didn’t make it okay.

Everything you say now is and was my point that two wrongs don't make right.

[Pacomia]

That’s fair. Still, I don’t think that gives them the right. Again, the citizens of Germany didn’t do it, the military and the government did. Even if the act was equal to the act by the Germans, that didn’t make it okay.

Everything you say now is and was my point that two wrongs don't make right.

No, I’m claiming that getting revenge on someone for something they didn’t do is bad.

[Beatitas]

Everything you say now is and was my point that two wrongs don't make right.

No, I’m claiming that getting revenge on someone for something they didn’t do is bad.

Oh. I get it. That was sort of my point.

Let's say someone abused you as a child repetitively and severely. What would you say to that person if you met him or her and learned that the person was sorry? Would you forgive that person?

[Andsed]

Well for me the biggest thing I can never under any circumstance forgive is definitely child abuse. I have absolutely no sympathy towards those who abuse children. Also sexual and verbal abuse of others is stuff I also just can''t forgive. Murder is a bit more complicated and more of a case by case basis but in general I would find it extremely difficult to forgive.

[Ethel mermania]

With the exception of child or animal abuse, I want to know the circumstances before saying I can forgive or not

[Plzen]

I only forgive people who admit they were wrong.

If we mean "forgiving" an act as not being willing to take punitive action on the basis of that act, this is my stance also. What a person did, past tense, is irrelevant except insofar as it tarnishes what that person can be expected to do, present and future tense. If there is genuine reason to believe that a given person will be an asset to human happiness and to human civilisation, I would find it within me to forgive just about anything.

Rationally, that is. If it happens to me or someone close to me, strong emotions will be involved, and I'm a selfish human who shares all the human emotional faults.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

Too many variables to decide.

[The Sherpa Empire]

In the poll, I picked child abuse, infidelity, lying, murder, and sexual abuse as the ones I'd have a harder time forgiving.

The reason for child abuse, murder, and sexual abuse is because of the depth of the harm they cause. Anybody can be an asshat if they are under enough stress, but those things are beyond everyday asshattery that normal people might do when they have a bad day.

Infidelity and lying, the problem is that if someone is not honest, then there is no reason to think their apologies are sincere. (Open relationships are fine, but if you cheat in a relationship that was supposed to be exclusive, it's the same as lying.)

Some of the others might really piss me off, but if someone seemed remorseful, I'd be relatively willing to accept an apology and give them another chance.

With stealing, it really depends on what they stole, who they stole it from, and why. Someone that stole a candy bar and now feels bad about it -- forgivable. Hobo that steals a coat in the winter, but knows it's wrong and only did it because he was afraid of freezing -- forgivable. People that embezzle millions of dollars so they can have a Lexus and a vacation home, or that swindle people who are already poor -- not cool.

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In the poll, I picked child abuse, infidelity, lying, murder, and sexual abuse as the ones I'd have a harder time forgiving.

The reason for child abuse, murder, and sexual abuse is because of the depth of the harm they cause. Anybody can be an asshat if they are under enough stress, but those things are beyond everyday asshattery that normal people might do when they have a bad day.

Infidelity and lying, the problem is that if someone is not honest, then there is no reason to think their apologies are sincere. (Open relationships are fine, but if you cheat in a relationship that was supposed to be exclusive, it's the same as lying.)

Some of the others might really piss me off, but if someone seemed remorseful, I'd be relatively willing to accept an apology and give them another chance.

With stealing, it really depends on what they stole, who they stole it from, and why. Someone that stole a candy bar and now feels bad about it -- forgivable. Hobo that steals a coat in the winter, but knows it's wrong and only did it because he was afraid of freezing -- forgivable. People that embezzle millions of dollars so they can have a Lexus and a vacation home, or that swindle people who are already poor -- not cool.

I don't even think it's wrong at all to steal something necessary for survival, and I view people who legally make millions off human suffering as no better than embezzlers and fraudsters.

[Phoenicaea]

a good thread, because i mean, what i wish to stare at, is apart principles (which is rule of law, nature of acts on basis of what they cause), each has a medieval inner whet.

[Ghost in the Shell]

If anyone recognises their bad actions and is sincere in asking for forgiveness I don't see any reason why I shouldn't forgive them.

[NoAvailability]

Infidelity for me. It's... personal, but it's something I'd find extremely hard to forgive.
Child Abuse is something I WOULD consider unforgivable, if I were to agree with it's definition. As it stands, hard to forgive, but not unforgivable. Even as a bullying victim myself, verbal abuse, even if directed at children, is something that is very much forgivable. Sexual abuse less so, but again, definitions. As it stands, Infidelity would be the only thing from that list I absolutely hate.

Primarily because there is no punishment for it coming from the side of the state. If there were one, I'd be more forgiving personally. I'm a big fan of ignis purgatorius and the idea of actually working for forgiveness and getting at least some form of punishment, self-inflicted or otherwise, even if it is less damage than the one inflicted.

Yes, regret, real regret, counts as such a self-inflicted punishment.

[United Muscovite Nations]

I would hope I could forgive all of them, but forgiveness doesn't entail forgetting that it happened, it simply entails not harboring hatred towards the person who did the action.

[Cekoviu]

It's really disturbing that infidelity is barely trailing murder.

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It's really disturbing that infidelity is barely trailing murder.

It disturbs me that swearing was even included alongside murder and child abuse. That's not even a thing that requires a modicum of forgiveness in the first place.

[United Muscovite Nations]

It's really disturbing that infidelity is barely trailing murder.

I definitely see why it would, it's a pretty despicable act and a betrayal of trust. While I might forgive someone who did it, I would not wish to associate with them ever again.

[The Sherpa Empire]

It's really disturbing that infidelity is barely trailing murder.

It disturbs me that swearing was even included alongside murder and child abuse. That's not even a thing that requires a modicum of forgiveness in the first place.

Yeah, swearing is the least offensive thing on the list, whereas child abuse is rather serious.

[Celestiam]

I would find it infinitely more difficult to forgive any of those acts directed against someone else than if they were directed against me. I tend to try propelling myself into people's shoes and easily forbear the harm caused to me. However, harm inflicted to others is very different, and I would only be ready to forgive if the actual victim (or family in the case of murder) were ready to forgive as well.

[Cekoviu]

It's really disturbing that infidelity is barely trailing murder.

I definitely see why it would, it's a pretty despicable act and a betrayal of trust. While I might forgive someone who did it, I would not wish to associate with them ever again.

Oh sure, it's a really nasty thing to do. But it's definitely not as unforgivable as murder or child abuse. Or it shouldn't be, at least.

[GLORIOUS FALGSC]

with enough money, anything is possible...

[Trollzyn the Infinite]

I only forgive people who admit they were wrong.

I'm baffled by anybody that doesn't, frankly.

Forgiveness must be earned.

[Agalaesia]

I think everything is forgivable, of time is given for wounds to heal and problem to change.