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Gun Control 2022 (IV) - Gun Rights, Control, & Government

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Your thoughts on pistol braces? (See top of OP for information)

Ban modern sporting rifles
114
15%
Pistol braces should be outlawed and current restrictions on SBRs remain in place
86
11%
Pistol braces should be outlawed but current restrictions on SBRs should be removed
30
4%
Pistol braces should be allowed and current restrictions on SBRs should remain
102
13%
Pistol braces should be allowed but current restrictions on SBRs should be removed
454
58%
 
Total votes : 786

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Grinning Dragon
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Posts: 11116
Founded: May 16, 2011
Anarchy

Postby Grinning Dragon » Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:00 am

Pax Nerdvana wrote:
Grinning Dragon wrote:And for your "firearm and ballistics" expertise for the day.
From shitazeera

Hmm, yeah, somehow I don't think a plastic BCG is gonna hold up, and a plastic firing pin, springs and hammer? Some firearm expert, perhaps that dipshit outta go back to playing with tinker toys.

Plastic BCG sounds like a horrible idea. What an “expert”.
Pandora’s box is open, and there’s no trying to close it. All those files are out there, and there’s no stopping them. Gun control is dead.

Most times, it amuses me to hear these so-called "firearm" experts, whether from some govt entity or whether it's from gun control groups and then hear the most idiotic mindless ramblings of a dipshit while trying to convince the rest of us they know what they are talking as if they have some modicum level of intelligence. My favorite ones are those in the lame-stream-media, where some talking head brain dead dipshit, from the likes of cbs, nbc, cnn, abc, etc, go on and on as if they too understand firearms and firearm laws, it's a wonder how they have the smarts to even put on pants and tie their shoes.
Yeah, gun control is dead, put a fork in it. The amount of hand-wringing going on lately over home-built firearms is reaching max levels of retardation over something that's been going on since forever.


Page wrote:Only control the guns of millionaires and billionaires. This has been a Page drunk post, albeit one he will stand by when sober again.

Interestingly enough you kinda hit a chord on this one. Our so-called betters, the ones who think the rest of us need to be controlled as if we are stupid and try to dictate what means of arms they want to restrict us to obtain/use, while they, themselves are surrounded by armed security, live in secure areas with private security, so in their "perception is reality" daily life, there is no need for an unwashed peon to keep and bear arms.
Last edited by Grinning Dragon on Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Mercatus
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Posts: 1232
Founded: Mar 27, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Mercatus » Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:06 pm

Grinning Dragon wrote:And for your "firearm and ballistics" expertise for the day.
From shitazeera
..Ballistics and firearms expert Phillip Boyce, from the British-based firm Forensic Equity, said 3D printed guns have evolved since then, despite the “standard and quality” remaining “about the same”, with various designs now available.

It is no longer just handguns that can be produced from a 3D printer, Boyce said.

“You can have a fully automatic AR15 rifle, or a fully automatic AK47. And normally, those fully automatic weapons have got steel barrels, but the rest of it is plastic,” he added...

Hmm, yeah, somehow I don't think a plastic BCG is gonna hold up, and a plastic firing pin, springs and hammer? Some firearm expert, perhaps that dipshit outta go back to playing with tinker toys.


At most, we could do a plastic upper, and even then it would need to be made of nylon or zytel with metal reinforcements.

Fun fact, Deterrence Dispensed released a printable M16 fire control group.
About Me: Far-Right high schooler from Texas disillusioned with the progressive path being taken by society and propagated by young people.
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Grinning Dragon
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Posts: 11116
Founded: May 16, 2011
Anarchy

Postby Grinning Dragon » Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:33 am

Is an AR, a shotgun, two 9mm handguns and some ammo, really "very high-powered-artillery"?
‘These are very high-powered artillery weapons, and this is why this city keeps fighting for gun control’

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Paddy O Fernature
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Posts: 13802
Founded: Sep 30, 2010
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Paddy O Fernature » Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:47 am

Grinning Dragon wrote:Is an AR, a shotgun, two 9mm handguns and some ammo, really "very high-powered-artillery"?
‘These are very high-powered artillery weapons, and this is why this city keeps fighting for gun control’


Yet another example of just how willfully ignorant a certain political demographic can be on the given topic at hand.

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Hurtful Thoughts
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Capitalist Paradise

Postby Hurtful Thoughts » Mon Aug 02, 2021 1:09 pm

Grinning Dragon wrote:Is an AR, a shotgun, two 9mm handguns and some ammo, really "very high-powered-artillery"?
‘These are very high-powered artillery weapons, and this is why this city keeps fighting for gun control’

Politician sees:
Assault Weapon (thinking is a readily convertable MG), two SMGs, and a .75 caliber auto-cannon.

Need people explain how many bad things happen inside a handgun when you tamper with the trigger-disco?
Last edited by Hurtful Thoughts on Mon Aug 02, 2021 1:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Mercatus
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Founded: Mar 27, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Mercatus » Mon Aug 02, 2021 8:51 pm

Hurtful Thoughts wrote:
Grinning Dragon wrote:Is an AR, a shotgun, two 9mm handguns and some ammo, really "very high-powered-artillery"?
‘These are very high-powered artillery weapons, and this is why this city keeps fighting for gun control’

Politician sees:
Assault Weapon (thinking is a readily convertable MG), two SMGs, and a .75 caliber auto-cannon.

Need people explain how many bad things happen inside a handgun when you tamper with the trigger-disco?


That only happens when idiots mess with it. Luckily, most of these politicians seem to be at or below that level of intelligence, so if we give them a few and ask them to turn them into machine guns, it just might be a self-correcting problem.
About Me: Far-Right high schooler from Texas disillusioned with the progressive path being taken by society and propagated by young people.
Political Ideology: Right Wing Populism
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Pro: Gun Rights, Nuclear Family, Protectionist Economics, Capitalism, Israel, Border Wall, Fossil Fuels, Nuclear Energy, Traditional Social Values.
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Great Algerstonia
Minister
 
Posts: 2617
Founded: Mar 21, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Great Algerstonia » Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:26 pm

What are some good websites/articles/postsinthisforum to read about the benefits of gun rights and/or refute gun control myths?
Anti: Russia
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Resilient Acceleration wrote:After a period of letting this discussion run its course without my involvement due to sheer laziness and a new related NS project, I have returned with an answer and that answer is Israel.

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Greater Cesnica
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Posts: 8989
Founded: Mar 30, 2017
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Greater Cesnica » Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:26 pm

Mercatus wrote:
Hurtful Thoughts wrote:Politician sees:
Assault Weapon (thinking is a readily convertable MG), two SMGs, and a .75 caliber auto-cannon.

Need people explain how many bad things happen inside a handgun when you tamper with the trigger-disco?


That only happens when idiots mess with it. Luckily, most of these politicians seem to be at or below that level of intelligence, so if we give them a few and ask them to turn them into machine guns, it just might be a self-correcting problem.

Oooh that could work actually. Let them realize by themselves that they're full of shit.
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San Lumen wrote:You are ridiculous.
George Orwell wrote:“That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there.”

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Greater Cesnica
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Founded: Mar 30, 2017
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Postby Greater Cesnica » Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:35 pm

Last edited by Greater Cesnica on Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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San Lumen wrote:You are ridiculous.
George Orwell wrote:“That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there.”

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Chernoslavia
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Posts: 9890
Founded: Jun 13, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Chernoslavia » Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:05 pm

It astounds me how one can be staunchly pro gun but be a ''state socialist''. Like bro with all these guns, you're not gonna be making no socialist state anytime soon.
Last edited by Chernoslavia on Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive? Or if during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand? The Organs would quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!

- Alexander Solzhenitsyn

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Greater Cesnica
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Founded: Mar 30, 2017
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Greater Cesnica » Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:11 pm

Chernoslavia wrote:It astounds me how one can be staunchly pro gun but be a ''state socialist''. Like bro with all those guns around you, you're not gonna be making no socialist state anytime soon.

Well, it depends I suppose. Often times state socialism is initiated by popular revolt. When centralized planning kicks in, that's when the disenchantment starts. Conveniently, the guns tend to disappear by then. There is after all a reason why Titoist Yugoslavia enjoyed overwhelming popular support, whereas the Soviet Union was plagued by internal disenchantment- the former relied on decentralized organization, whereas the latter relied on centralization for most of its existence.

Of course, my ideology, though socialist, leans far libertarian, so I don't have to worry about such potential contradictions.
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San Lumen wrote:You are ridiculous.
George Orwell wrote:“That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there.”

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Gim
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Posts: 31363
Founded: Jul 29, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Gim » Tue Aug 03, 2021 12:59 am

Chernoslavia wrote:It astounds me how one can be staunchly pro gun but be a ''state socialist''. Like bro with all these guns, you're not gonna be making no socialist state anytime soon.


Probably the twisted, corrupted version of socialism. That's the best I can connect.
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Great Algerstonia
Minister
 
Posts: 2617
Founded: Mar 21, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Great Algerstonia » Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:23 am

Greater Cesnica wrote:
Great Algerstonia wrote:What are some good websites/articles/postsinthisforum to read about the benefits of gun rights and/or refute gun control myths?

https://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp is a good, balanced resource.
https://socialistrevolution.org/sociali ... n-control/ is a good resource that takes a pro-gun, anti-gun control stance from the socialist position.

My collected list of peer-reviewed* articles that expound upon the benefits of gun rights and/or refute gun control myths:
https://ir.lawnet.fordham.edu/ulj/vol39/iss5/10/

https://digitalcommons.northgeorgia.edu ... ntext=issr

https://scholarlycommons.law.northweste ... 04/iss4/4/

https://www.practicalbioethics.org/file ... merica.pdf

https://scholarlycommons.law.northweste ... ntext=jclc

http://www.albanylawreview.org/Articles ... 0Kopel.pdf

https://www.nas.org/academic-questions/ ... me-control

https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/S ... a970c25d1d

https://ir.lawnet.fordham.edu/ulj/vol30/iss2/6/

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm ... _id=998893

https://sci-hub.do/10.1007/s11293-016-9529-z

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/artic ... ne.0234457

https://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/lbrr/arc ... 26-eng.pdf

*The sole article here that has not been peer-reviewed is the one published on the National Association of Scholars website.

Appreciated!
Anti: Russia
Pro: Prussia
Resilient Acceleration wrote:After a period of letting this discussion run its course without my involvement due to sheer laziness and a new related NS project, I have returned with an answer and that answer is Israel.

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Washington Resistance Army
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 54806
Founded: Aug 08, 2011
Father Knows Best State

Postby Washington Resistance Army » Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:28 am

Chernoslavia wrote:It astounds me how one can be staunchly pro gun but be a ''state socialist''. Like bro with all these guns, you're not gonna be making no socialist state anytime soon.


Socialist states have historically usually come into existence because of people with guns.
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Greater Cesnica
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Founded: Mar 30, 2017
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Greater Cesnica » Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:31 am

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Chernoslavia wrote:It astounds me how one can be staunchly pro gun but be a ''state socialist''. Like bro with all these guns, you're not gonna be making no socialist state anytime soon.


Socialist states have historically usually come into existence because of people with guns.

Easy for people to ignore that to suit their ideological narrative I suppose.
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San Lumen wrote:You are ridiculous.
George Orwell wrote:“That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there.”

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Chernoslavia
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Founded: Jun 13, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Chernoslavia » Tue Aug 03, 2021 11:47 am

Greater Cesnica wrote:
Chernoslavia wrote:It astounds me how one can be staunchly pro gun but be a ''state socialist''. Like bro with all those guns around you, you're not gonna be making no socialist state anytime soon.

Well, it depends I suppose. Often times state socialism is initiated by popular revolt. When centralized planning kicks in, that's when the disenchantment starts. Conveniently, the guns tend to disappear by then. There is after all a reason why Titoist Yugoslavia enjoyed overwhelming popular support, whereas the Soviet Union was plagued by internal disenchantment- the former relied on decentralized organization, whereas the latter relied on centralization for most of its existence.

Of course, my ideology, though socialist, leans far libertarian, so I don't have to worry about such potential contradictions.

Right, good thing it isn't popular (not yet anyway) in the states.....except maybe CA.
What would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive? Or if during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand? The Organs would quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!

- Alexander Solzhenitsyn

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Chernoslavia
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Founded: Jun 13, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Chernoslavia » Tue Aug 03, 2021 11:49 am

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Chernoslavia wrote:It astounds me how one can be staunchly pro gun but be a ''state socialist''. Like bro with all these guns, you're not gonna be making no socialist state anytime soon.


Socialist states have historically usually come into existence because of people with guns.


Good thing I'm not talking about 1917 Russia. y'all ain't gonna do anything with us around.
What would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive? Or if during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand? The Organs would quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!

- Alexander Solzhenitsyn

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Greater Cesnica
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Posts: 8989
Founded: Mar 30, 2017
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Greater Cesnica » Tue Aug 03, 2021 11:49 am

Chernoslavia wrote:
Greater Cesnica wrote:Well, it depends I suppose. Often times state socialism is initiated by popular revolt. When centralized planning kicks in, that's when the disenchantment starts. Conveniently, the guns tend to disappear by then. There is after all a reason why Titoist Yugoslavia enjoyed overwhelming popular support, whereas the Soviet Union was plagued by internal disenchantment- the former relied on decentralized organization, whereas the latter relied on centralization for most of its existence.

Of course, my ideology, though socialist, leans far libertarian, so I don't have to worry about such potential contradictions.

Right, good thing it isn't popular (not yet anyway) in the states.....except maybe CA.

Which thing are you glad isn't popular? State socialism? Or my beliefs?
Last edited by Greater Cesnica on Tue Aug 03, 2021 11:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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San Lumen wrote:You are ridiculous.
George Orwell wrote:“That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there.”

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Chernoslavia
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Posts: 9890
Founded: Jun 13, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Chernoslavia » Tue Aug 03, 2021 11:50 am

Greater Cesnica wrote:
Chernoslavia wrote:Right, good thing it isn't popular (not yet anyway) in the states.....except maybe CA.

Which thing are you glad isn't popular? State socialism? Or my beliefs?


Neither forms of Socialism.
What would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive? Or if during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand? The Organs would quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!

- Alexander Solzhenitsyn

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Greater Cesnica
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8989
Founded: Mar 30, 2017
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Greater Cesnica » Tue Aug 03, 2021 11:51 am

Chernoslavia wrote:
Greater Cesnica wrote:Which thing are you glad isn't popular? State socialism? Or my beliefs?


Neither forms of Socialism.

I'm curious if you can actually give me a coherent definition of socialism without looking it up.
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San Lumen wrote:You are ridiculous.
George Orwell wrote:“That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there.”

User avatar
Washington Resistance Army
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 54806
Founded: Aug 08, 2011
Father Knows Best State

Postby Washington Resistance Army » Tue Aug 03, 2021 11:53 am

Chernoslavia wrote:
Greater Cesnica wrote:Well, it depends I suppose. Often times state socialism is initiated by popular revolt. When centralized planning kicks in, that's when the disenchantment starts. Conveniently, the guns tend to disappear by then. There is after all a reason why Titoist Yugoslavia enjoyed overwhelming popular support, whereas the Soviet Union was plagued by internal disenchantment- the former relied on decentralized organization, whereas the latter relied on centralization for most of its existence.

Of course, my ideology, though socialist, leans far libertarian, so I don't have to worry about such potential contradictions.

Right, good thing it isn't popular (not yet anyway) in the states.....except maybe CA.


Recent polling disagrees. Among 18-34 year olds capitalism is viewed with 46% negativity and 49% positivity. Even Republicans aren't exempt from this trend, only 66% of young Republicans view capitalism positively. 41% of overall American adults view socialism in a positive light so it's not too crazy to guess that in a decade or so socialism will have more popular support than capitalism among several key demographics.

As the article points out discerning the exact meanings of these terms in an American context can be hard because of the past century of propaganda and distortion the common non-political people have been fed but in general left wing economics enjoy wide support nowadays, even among right wingers.
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Chernoslavia
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Founded: Jun 13, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Chernoslavia » Tue Aug 03, 2021 11:53 am

Greater Cesnica wrote:
Chernoslavia wrote:
Neither forms of Socialism.

I'm curious if you can actually give me a coherent definition of socialism without looking it up.


Any economic system where you take away people's private businesses and hand them over to a central government or common collective or the public or whatever you like to call them. It's not going to happen.
What would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive? Or if during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand? The Organs would quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!

- Alexander Solzhenitsyn

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Greater Cesnica
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Posts: 8989
Founded: Mar 30, 2017
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Greater Cesnica » Tue Aug 03, 2021 11:54 am

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Chernoslavia wrote:Right, good thing it isn't popular (not yet anyway) in the states.....except maybe CA.


Recent polling disagrees. Among 18-34 year olds capitalism is viewed with 46% negativity and 49% positivity. Even Republicans aren't exempt from this trend, only 66% of young Republicans view capitalism positively. 41% of overall American adults view socialism in a positive light so it's not too crazy to guess that in a decade or so socialism will have more popular support than capitalism among several key demographics.

As the article points out discerning the exact meanings of these terms in an American context can be hard because of the past century of propaganda and distortion the common non-political people have been fed but in general left wing economics enjoy wide support nowadays, even among right wingers.

"noooooooooooooooooo but soysialism is ebil and big guvment :("
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San Lumen wrote:You are ridiculous.
George Orwell wrote:“That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there.”

User avatar
Greater Cesnica
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Founded: Mar 30, 2017
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Postby Greater Cesnica » Tue Aug 03, 2021 11:56 am

Chernoslavia wrote:
Greater Cesnica wrote:I'm curious if you can actually give me a coherent definition of socialism without looking it up.


Any economic system where you take away people's private businesses and hand them over to a central government or common collective or the public or whatever you like to call them. It's not going to happen.

How wrong you are. Socialism means giving ownership of the means of production to the workers when considering its fundamental, unchangeable tenet. The central government is not required. Market economies do not necessarily go away. What it does mean is eradicating the capitalist workplace hierarchy and wage labor. Profits in a business are to be allocated equally or by democratic processes. Each worker has a say in how a business conducts its affairs.

What does this yield? It greatly reduces income inequality, makes the common worker more motivated, gives them ownership over the products they create. The so-called "free-market" is truly accessible to the worker, as opposed to a tiny elite. It also reduces government expenditure, as governments spend less on inefficient damage control solutions to problems that capitalism created.
Last edited by Greater Cesnica on Tue Aug 03, 2021 11:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
Sic Semper Tyrannis.
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San Lumen wrote:You are ridiculous.
George Orwell wrote:“That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there.”

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Chernoslavia
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Posts: 9890
Founded: Jun 13, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Chernoslavia » Tue Aug 03, 2021 11:59 am

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Chernoslavia wrote:Right, good thing it isn't popular (not yet anyway) in the states.....except maybe CA.


Recent polling disagrees. Among 18-34 year olds capitalism is viewed with 46% negativity and 49% positivity. Even Republicans aren't exempt from this trend, only 66% of young Republicans view capitalism positively. 41% of overall American adults view socialism in a positive light so it's not too crazy to guess that in a decade or so socialism will have more popular support than capitalism among several key demographics.

As the article points out discerning the exact meanings of these terms in an American context can be hard because of the past century of propaganda and distortion the common non-political people have been fed but in general left wing economics enjoy wide support nowadays, even among right wingers.


And not enough to make much of a difference, I'm not worried about a bunch of SRA larpers in furry costumes and who lack discipline trying to take away my private property and investments. And exactly how much of them know exactly what Socialism is?
What would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive? Or if during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand? The Organs would quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!

- Alexander Solzhenitsyn

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