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Gun Control 2022 (IV) - Gun Rights, Control, & Government

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Your thoughts on pistol braces? (See top of OP for information)

Ban modern sporting rifles
114
15%
Pistol braces should be outlawed and current restrictions on SBRs remain in place
86
11%
Pistol braces should be outlawed but current restrictions on SBRs should be removed
30
4%
Pistol braces should be allowed and current restrictions on SBRs should remain
102
13%
Pistol braces should be allowed but current restrictions on SBRs should be removed
454
58%
 
Total votes : 786

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Pax Nerdvana
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Posts: 15726
Founded: May 22, 2017
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Pax Nerdvana » Fri May 01, 2020 6:19 am

Kernen wrote:
The JELLEAIN Republic wrote:
Lol I’m definitely an American.
(I have the eu flag because my nation is a bunch of islands)


Well.
I’m all for freedom and individual rights,
But I still think that guns are too open.
Like,
Let me put it this way.
The argument is either for more guns or for less.
Nobody hates freedom.
The only people who would be interested in taking away freedoms for the sake of it are totalitarian politicians that want power.
If you want less guns it’s because you think they are causing a problem.
If you want more guns you think your freedoms are being unfairly controlled, or that you need them.
Besides some individual with a totalitarian streak.
What malicious motive could it possibly be for less guns.
Taking away a right makes people unhappy, you get less votes.
Politicians wouldn’t shoot them selves in the foot. (At least not the smart ones).
I see however, why a politician might be maliciously motivated for guns.
“enter corrupt NRA lobby”.

I do see the argument that the politicians are taking it away maliciously and are only pretending there is a problem.
But the scale that would have to be, and the implied things they would do is just too far fetched for me.

You are either trying to disarm people so you can do some authoritarian stuff or you are being corrupted by money and ignoring the death.

Like.
In a world where it is efficient, and easy.
Why not get a background check, and safety training.

You need a drivers license after all. (Driving isn't a right though...), but still it’s a responsibility.

Why not go and say hey, I want a gun license.
So they go, and see, hmm, no (big) criminal behavior or repeat offenses, no dangerous mental issue.
Go to some training lessons.
You are trained how to properly and safely use a gun.
You get a license.
Go to a store, show the license, and walk out of the store with the new gun,
Maybe if you have kids or something be more strict about storage.

No hassle.
You learned a skill.
Once you do it it’s super easy to get a gun.

Then again.
I am one person.
What would be the cons of an idea like this ?

The con is that licenses are used in an exclusionary manner, and that your right to bear arms is a constitutional right that is harmed by requiring a license, storage law, and 'training'.

I swear, I don't get why people think you need a class. Modern firearms come with a manual, and even if illiterate, guns are not that hard to figure out. Children can, and do, use them safely every day.

I was shooting BB guns and .22s before I started driving. You don't need a class to learn how to safely operate a gun.

On the subject of militias, I found this excellent quote from the late, great Colonel Jeff Cooper:
"All the people constitute the militia - according to the Founding Fathers. Therefore every able-bodied man has a duty under the Constitution to become part of the 'well-regulated' militia, specifically to understand and perform well with the individual weapon currently issued to the regular establishment .... Thus one who has not qualified himself with the M-16 may not be considered to be a responsible citizen."
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Paddy O Fernature
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Posts: 13802
Founded: Sep 30, 2010
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Paddy O Fernature » Fri May 01, 2020 6:26 am

The JELLEAIN Republic wrote:
Well.
I’m all for freedom and individual rights,
But I still think that guns are too open.
Like,
Let me put it this way.
The argument is either for more guns or for less.
Nobody hates freedom.
The only people who would be interested in taking away freedoms for the sake of it are totalitarian politicians that want power.
If you want less guns it’s because you think they are causing a problem.
If you want more guns you think your freedoms are being unfairly controlled, or that you need them.
Besides some individual with a totalitarian streak.
What malicious motive could it possibly be for less guns.
Taking away a right makes people unhappy, you get less votes.
Politicians wouldn’t shoot them selves in the foot. (At least not the smart ones).
I see however, why a politician might be maliciously motivated for guns.
“enter corrupt NRA lobby”.

I do see the argument that the politicians are taking it away maliciously and are only pretending there is a problem.
But the scale that would have to be, and the implied things they would do is just too far fetched for me.

You are either trying to disarm people so you can do some authoritarian stuff or you are being corrupted by money and ignoring the death.

Like.
In a world where it is efficient, and easy.
Why not get a background check, and safety training.

You need a drivers license after all. (Driving isn't a right though...), but still it’s a responsibility.

Why not go and say hey, I want a gun license.
So they go, and see, hmm, no (big) criminal behavior or repeat offenses, no dangerous mental issue.
Go to some training lessons.
You are trained how to properly and safely use a gun.
You get a license.
Go to a store, show the license, and walk out of the store with the new gun,
Maybe if you have kids or something be more strict about storage.

No hassle.
You learned a skill.
Once you do it it’s super easy to get a gun.

Then again.
I am one person.
What would be the cons of an idea like this ?


Holy fucking jumbled wall of misinformation Batman!

The JELLEAIN Republic wrote:Well. I’m all for freedom and individual rights, But I still think that guns are too open....


Oh goody, this old meme again. Let's continue on though..

The JELLEAIN Republic wrote:The argument is either for more guns or for less...


Except that it really isn't. A more accurate statement would be It's an argument for people wanting to keep the rights they already have from those who want to blanket ban them away for literally no logical reason other then they want more power over the people.

The JELLEAIN Republic wrote:Nobody hates freedom....


Dwight Schrute wrote:False!


Considering the left literally has been trying to remove peoples freedom at every turn for going on decades now, I'd say that there is indeed a very strong argument otherwise to be made here.

The JELLEAIN Republic wrote:....I do see the argument that the politicians are taking it away maliciously and are only pretending there is a problem. But the scale that would have to be, and the implied things they would do is just too far fetched for me..


And yet, the facts clearly say otherwise (such as both the CDC study and the FBI's Table 20 for example).. Both Statistically and opinionated speaking here, firearms are not the issue. At least you are openly admitting that you feel this way despite actual facts stating otherwise.

The JELLEAIN Republic wrote:You are either trying to disarm people so you can do some authoritarian stuff or you are being corrupted by money and ignoring the death.


Ah yes, the "NRA is bad and you should feel bad" meme again. I was wondering when I'd see it again.

The JELLEAIN Republic wrote:Like. In a world where it is efficient, and easy. Why not get a background check, and safety training.


You mean like we already do? As already pointed out to you by other users here, you really need to brush up on the subject some.

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Plzen
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Ex-Nation

Postby Plzen » Fri May 01, 2020 6:36 am

There is more to freedom, I would hope, than the mere non-interference of the State in private affairs.

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Kernen
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Postby Kernen » Fri May 01, 2020 10:15 am

Plzen wrote:There is more to freedom, I would hope, than the mere non-interference of the State in private affairs.


Nope. Freedom is that fickle double edge.

Of course, not all freedom is itself good.
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West Leas Oros 2
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Postby West Leas Oros 2 » Fri May 01, 2020 10:23 am

Plzen wrote:There is more to freedom, I would hope, than the mere non-interference of the State in private affairs.

Yes there is. There is also the non-interference of other organizations such as companies, religious institutions, and the like. As well as the non-interference of individuals as well. Freedom entails not only the freedom to exercise your rights, but the freedom from having those rights infringed by any of the aforementioned people and organizations. The right to bear arms is, in my opinion, an essential right for any free society.
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The Chuck
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Founded: Apr 18, 2018
Capitalist Paradise

Postby The Chuck » Fri May 01, 2020 10:58 am

Canada just got fucked. Sorry to all the boys and girls up north who just got shafted by Trudeau.

Reminder that the shit head from Nova Scotia who shot those 22 people wasn't legally allowed to have those guns and yet that travesty still happened.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... a-shooting
Last edited by The Chuck on Fri May 01, 2020 10:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The Flying Hand
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Posts: 31
Founded: Jan 29, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby The Flying Hand » Fri May 01, 2020 10:59 am

THIS JUST IN, AR-15s CLASSIFIED AS "MILITARY GRADE, ASSAULT WEAPONRY", NOTED AUTOMATIC WEAPONRY USED AGAINST AL-ISIS IN THE MIDDLE WEST, NOW BANNED IN CANADA FOR CAUSING A COUPLE OF MASS SHOOTINGS IT WASN'T actually used in...?
Last edited by The Flying Hand on Fri May 01, 2020 11:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The aura and personality of Darth Vader is attractive to people?

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Dylar
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Posts: 7116
Founded: Jan 07, 2016
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Postby Dylar » Fri May 01, 2020 11:05 am

The Flying Hand wrote:THIS JUST IN, AR-15s CLASSIFIED AS "MILITARY GRADE, ASSAULT WEAPONRY", NOTED AUTOMATIC WEAPONRY USED AGAINST AL-ISIS IN THE MIDDLE WEST, NOW BANNED IN CANADA FOR CAUSING A COUPLE OF MASS SHOOTINGS IT WASN'T actually used in...?

For fucks sake Trudeau...
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West Leas Oros 2
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Founded: Jul 15, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby West Leas Oros 2 » Fri May 01, 2020 11:06 am

The Chuck wrote:Canada just got fucked. Sorry to all the boys and girls up north who just got shafted by Trudeau.

Reminder that the shit head from Nova Scotia who shot those 22 people wasn't legally allowed to have those guns and yet that travesty still happened.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... a-shooting

I feel a severe sadness when I see Canadians dicked over like this. Can we just have a Mountie Military Dictatorship overthrow Trudeau? I bet the Mounties would be less intrusive with their freedoms.
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Rojava Free State
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Founded: Feb 06, 2018
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Postby Rojava Free State » Fri May 01, 2020 11:32 am

The Chuck wrote:Canada just got fucked. Sorry to all the boys and girls up north who just got shafted by Trudeau.

Reminder that the shit head from Nova Scotia who shot those 22 people wasn't legally allowed to have those guns and yet that travesty still happened.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... a-shooting


I'm sure he'll have as easy of a time waging a war on assault rifles as we had waging a war on drugs.
Rojava Free State wrote:Listen yall. I'm only gonna say it once but I want you to remember it. This ain't a world fit for good men. It seems like you gotta be monstrous just to make it. Gotta have a little bit of darkness within you just to survive. You gotta stoop low everyday it seems like. Stoop all the way down to the devil in these times. And then one day you look in the mirror and you realize that you ain't you anymore. You're just another monster, and thanks to your actions, someone else will eventually become as warped and twisted as you. Never forget that the best of us are just the best of a bad lot. Being at the top of a pile of feces doesn't make you anything but shit like the rest. Never forget that.

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Rojava Free State
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Founded: Feb 06, 2018
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Postby Rojava Free State » Fri May 01, 2020 11:34 am

I can't stand Justin Trudeau. This guy banned assault rifles cause "CANADIANS ARE IN DANGER" but pulled out of the war against ISIS, allowed ISIS fighters to return to Canada and voted against a resolution recognizing the Islamic State's genocide.

At best he's a politically correct idiot. At worst he's an in the closet jihadist sympathizer.
Rojava Free State wrote:Listen yall. I'm only gonna say it once but I want you to remember it. This ain't a world fit for good men. It seems like you gotta be monstrous just to make it. Gotta have a little bit of darkness within you just to survive. You gotta stoop low everyday it seems like. Stoop all the way down to the devil in these times. And then one day you look in the mirror and you realize that you ain't you anymore. You're just another monster, and thanks to your actions, someone else will eventually become as warped and twisted as you. Never forget that the best of us are just the best of a bad lot. Being at the top of a pile of feces doesn't make you anything but shit like the rest. Never forget that.

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West Leas Oros 2
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Posts: 6004
Founded: Jul 15, 2018
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Postby West Leas Oros 2 » Fri May 01, 2020 11:36 am

Rojava Free State wrote:I can't stand Justin Trudeau. This guy banned assault rifles cause "CANADIANS ARE IN DANGER" but pulled out of the war against ISIS, allowed ISIS fighters to return to Canada and voted against a resolution recognizing the Islamic State's genocide.

At best he's a politically correct idiot. At worst he's an in the closet jihadist sympathizer.

Canadians, I love them, but their leadership sucks.
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How many South Americans need to be killed by the CIA before you realize socialism is bad?
I like to think I've come a long way since the days of the First WLO.
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Rojava Free State
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Postby Rojava Free State » Fri May 01, 2020 11:38 am

West Leas Oros 2 wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:I can't stand Justin Trudeau. This guy banned assault rifles cause "CANADIANS ARE IN DANGER" but pulled out of the war against ISIS, allowed ISIS fighters to return to Canada and voted against a resolution recognizing the Islamic State's genocide.

At best he's a politically correct idiot. At worst he's an in the closet jihadist sympathizer.

Canadians, I love them, but their leadership sucks.


I wonder how long it'll be before one of those ISIS fighters "in rehabilitation" smokes somebody.

They day it happens, Trudeau will be as good as an accomplice to a murder.
Rojava Free State wrote:Listen yall. I'm only gonna say it once but I want you to remember it. This ain't a world fit for good men. It seems like you gotta be monstrous just to make it. Gotta have a little bit of darkness within you just to survive. You gotta stoop low everyday it seems like. Stoop all the way down to the devil in these times. And then one day you look in the mirror and you realize that you ain't you anymore. You're just another monster, and thanks to your actions, someone else will eventually become as warped and twisted as you. Never forget that the best of us are just the best of a bad lot. Being at the top of a pile of feces doesn't make you anything but shit like the rest. Never forget that.

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Diopolis
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Postby Diopolis » Fri May 01, 2020 11:53 am

Rojava Free State wrote:I can't stand Justin Trudeau. This guy banned assault rifles cause "CANADIANS ARE IN DANGER" but pulled out of the war against ISIS, allowed ISIS fighters to return to Canada and voted against a resolution recognizing the Islamic State's genocide.

At best he's a politically correct idiot. At worst he's an in the closet jihadist sympathizer.

And, til now, Canada's gun control was a good example of a situation that actually made sense according to the stated beliefs of gun controllers- the focus was on who was allowed to own guns, with extra restrictions being mostly on handguns(often preferred for criminal purposes), and there wasn't a flat out ban on different varieties of guns. This is reflected in Canada's gun laws actually being much looser for licensed owners than the US in some ways.
Now, of course, if Trudeau gets his way with Canadian gun law reform, it'll be a much better example of what gun controllers usually push for, which doesn't make sense even according to their stated beliefs.
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Rojava Free State
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Founded: Feb 06, 2018
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Postby Rojava Free State » Fri May 01, 2020 11:55 am

Diopolis wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:I can't stand Justin Trudeau. This guy banned assault rifles cause "CANADIANS ARE IN DANGER" but pulled out of the war against ISIS, allowed ISIS fighters to return to Canada and voted against a resolution recognizing the Islamic State's genocide.

At best he's a politically correct idiot. At worst he's an in the closet jihadist sympathizer.

And, til now, Canada's gun control was a good example of a situation that actually made sense according to the stated beliefs of gun controllers- the focus was on who was allowed to own guns, with extra restrictions being mostly on handguns(often preferred for criminal purposes), and there wasn't a flat out ban on different varieties of guns. This is reflected in Canada's gun laws actually being much looser for licensed owners than the US in some ways.
Now, of course, if Trudeau gets his way with Canadian gun law reform, it'll be a much better example of what gun controllers usually push for, which doesn't make sense even according to their stated beliefs.


It's gonna be alot harder to defend yourself against those wahhabis Trudeau let in, like some ancient pagan demon released from a broken stone circle.
Rojava Free State wrote:Listen yall. I'm only gonna say it once but I want you to remember it. This ain't a world fit for good men. It seems like you gotta be monstrous just to make it. Gotta have a little bit of darkness within you just to survive. You gotta stoop low everyday it seems like. Stoop all the way down to the devil in these times. And then one day you look in the mirror and you realize that you ain't you anymore. You're just another monster, and thanks to your actions, someone else will eventually become as warped and twisted as you. Never forget that the best of us are just the best of a bad lot. Being at the top of a pile of feces doesn't make you anything but shit like the rest. Never forget that.

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The Emerald Legion
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Founded: Mar 18, 2011
Father Knows Best State

Postby The Emerald Legion » Fri May 01, 2020 11:56 am

Rojava Free State wrote:
West Leas Oros 2 wrote:Canadians, I love them, but their leadership sucks.


I wonder how long it'll be before one of those ISIS fighters "in rehabilitation" smokes somebody.

They day it happens, Trudeau will be as good as an accomplice to a murder.


I mean. There's also that thing where the Canadian Government is reenacting the USA's manifest destiny attitude towards natives.
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Diopolis
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Posts: 17734
Founded: May 15, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Diopolis » Fri May 01, 2020 11:58 am

Rojava Free State wrote:
Diopolis wrote:And, til now, Canada's gun control was a good example of a situation that actually made sense according to the stated beliefs of gun controllers- the focus was on who was allowed to own guns, with extra restrictions being mostly on handguns(often preferred for criminal purposes), and there wasn't a flat out ban on different varieties of guns. This is reflected in Canada's gun laws actually being much looser for licensed owners than the US in some ways.
Now, of course, if Trudeau gets his way with Canadian gun law reform, it'll be a much better example of what gun controllers usually push for, which doesn't make sense even according to their stated beliefs.


It's gonna be alot harder to defend yourself against those wahhabis Trudeau let in, like some ancient pagan demon released from a broken stone circle.

More or less, yes.
But of course it's their fault for expecting to be safe from saracens. It's a racist and colonialist assumption after all.
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Rojava Free State
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Posts: 19428
Founded: Feb 06, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Rojava Free State » Fri May 01, 2020 12:22 pm

The Emerald Legion wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:
I wonder how long it'll be before one of those ISIS fighters "in rehabilitation" smokes somebody.

They day it happens, Trudeau will be as good as an accomplice to a murder.


I mean. There's also that thing where the Canadian Government is reenacting the USA's manifest destiny attitude towards natives.


So I heard. Terrible.
Rojava Free State wrote:Listen yall. I'm only gonna say it once but I want you to remember it. This ain't a world fit for good men. It seems like you gotta be monstrous just to make it. Gotta have a little bit of darkness within you just to survive. You gotta stoop low everyday it seems like. Stoop all the way down to the devil in these times. And then one day you look in the mirror and you realize that you ain't you anymore. You're just another monster, and thanks to your actions, someone else will eventually become as warped and twisted as you. Never forget that the best of us are just the best of a bad lot. Being at the top of a pile of feces doesn't make you anything but shit like the rest. Never forget that.

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South Odreria 2
Minister
 
Posts: 3102
Founded: Aug 26, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby South Odreria 2 » Fri May 01, 2020 1:32 pm

Diopolis wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:I can't stand Justin Trudeau. This guy banned assault rifles cause "CANADIANS ARE IN DANGER" but pulled out of the war against ISIS, allowed ISIS fighters to return to Canada and voted against a resolution recognizing the Islamic State's genocide.

At best he's a politically correct idiot. At worst he's an in the closet jihadist sympathizer.

And, til now, Canada's gun control was a good example of a situation that actually made sense according to the stated beliefs of gun controllers- the focus was on who was allowed to own guns, with extra restrictions being mostly on handguns(often preferred for criminal purposes), and there wasn't a flat out ban on different varieties of guns. This is reflected in Canada's gun laws actually being much looser for licensed owners than the US in some ways.
Now, of course, if Trudeau gets his way with Canadian gun law reform, it'll be a much better example of what gun controllers usually push for, which doesn't make sense even according to their stated beliefs.

Absolutely ridiculous move by Trudeau.
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The Two Jerseys
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Posts: 20984
Founded: Jun 07, 2012
Father Knows Best State

Postby The Two Jerseys » Fri May 01, 2020 1:32 pm

West Leas Oros 2 wrote:
The Chuck wrote:Canada just got fucked. Sorry to all the boys and girls up north who just got shafted by Trudeau.

Reminder that the shit head from Nova Scotia who shot those 22 people wasn't legally allowed to have those guns and yet that travesty still happened.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... a-shooting

I feel a severe sadness when I see Canadians dicked over like this. Can we just have a Mountie Military Dictatorship overthrow Trudeau? I bet the Mounties would be less intrusive with their freedoms.

Where's Zombie John Diefenbaker when we need him?
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Grinning Dragon
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Founded: May 16, 2011
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Postby Grinning Dragon » Fri May 01, 2020 2:44 pm

The Chuck wrote:Canada just got fucked. Sorry to all the boys and girls up north who just got shafted by Trudeau.

Reminder that the shit head from Nova Scotia who shot those 22 people wasn't legally allowed to have those guns and yet that travesty still happened.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... a-shooting

Remember, shitbrick burned 9 of his 22 victims. I also see that waste of skin trudeau was kind of a nice cunt and gave a 2 year amnesty to turn in those vewy, scawry, rifles. I hope nobody complies and keep their property.

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Gig em Aggies
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Postby Gig em Aggies » Fri May 01, 2020 3:04 pm

Grinning Dragon wrote:
The Chuck wrote:Canada just got fucked. Sorry to all the boys and girls up north who just got shafted by Trudeau.

Reminder that the shit head from Nova Scotia who shot those 22 people wasn't legally allowed to have those guns and yet that travesty still happened.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... a-shooting

Remember, shitbrick burned 9 of his 22 victims. I also see that waste of skin trudeau was kind of a nice cunt and gave a 2 year amnesty to turn in those vewy, scawry, rifles. I hope nobody complies and keep their property.

what's even funnier is that he's banning a couple sub-machine guns that fire pistol caliber ammunition he's effectively disarming the populace to a point that if another shooting like this happened the gunman wont have to worry about civilians firing back. a new slogan I see fits perfectly "Way to go Trudeau"
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Plzen
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9805
Founded: Mar 19, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Plzen » Fri May 01, 2020 9:10 pm

West Leas Oros 2 wrote:Yes there is. There is also the non-interference of other organizations such as companies, religious institutions, and the like.

In that case, "freedom" as you have defined it is synonymous with barbarism and yes, you would be quite right in that I don't really believe in it.

Interdependence has been a core facet of human existence since if not even longer before the Agricultural Revolution created specialists, and in a world where a person's welfare and, in many cases, existence depend on social institutions that take care of everything other than each individual person's specialty, there can be no independence nor autonomy from such social institutions.

"Social institutions" being, when you really break it down to its core fundamentals, the predictable norms of other people's behaviour.
Last edited by Plzen on Fri May 01, 2020 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Thepeopl
Minister
 
Posts: 2646
Founded: Feb 24, 2019
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Thepeopl » Fri May 01, 2020 11:20 pm

Let's take a look at Iceland.

https://www.icelandreview.com/society/hold-your-fire/

https://cognitive-liberty.online/weapon ... ng-effect/

It would suggest not the guns but the culture around them "protection" and "perceived danger" are the the factors to tinker with.

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Aclion
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6249
Founded: Apr 12, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Aclion » Fri May 01, 2020 11:44 pm

Thepeopl wrote:Let's take a look at Iceland.

https://www.icelandreview.com/society/hold-your-fire/

https://cognitive-liberty.online/weapon ... ng-effect/

It would suggest not the guns but the culture around them "protection" and "perceived danger" are the the factors to tinker with.

I would suggest that community size, access to education and level of poverty. are far more important factors.
A popular Government, without popular information, or the means of acquiring it, is but a Prologue to a Farce or a Tragedy; or, perhaps both. - James Madison.

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