Gun Control 2022 (IV) - Gun Rights, Control, & Government

[Galloism]

It's much easier to kill people with firearms than with any of those.

Submitted for your approval: a place where the main road is lined with a half dozen gun stores, each with rows upon rows of rifles and handguns on display and where a friendly salesman will gladly give you one in exchange for a wad of cash. Everyone is walking down the middle of the street, because the only vehicles around are locked up at the lone car dealer, waiting for someone to undergo a background check and sit through a mandatory waiting period before they can be taken to their new home. You may be in Charlton Heston's version of Heaven; or, you may be in...the Twilight Zone.

I’d watch that.

[The Chuck]

It's much easier to kill people with firearms than with any of those.

Submitted for your approval: a place where the main road is lined with a half dozen gun stores, each with rows upon rows of rifles and handguns on display and where a friendly salesman will gladly give you one in exchange for a wad of cash. Everyone is walking down the middle of the street, because the only vehicles around are locked up at the lone car dealer, waiting for someone to undergo a background check and sit through a mandatory waiting period before they can be taken to their new home. You may be in Charlton Heston's version of Heaven; or, you may be in...the Twilight Zone.

I needed that laugh.

[Loben III]

But we are not Western Europe, and not merely because of guns, there are a ton of other factors and ways we could reduce crime without banning guns.

It’s terribly unfortunate that those in favour of lax gun control also tend to be opposed to other measures aimed at making the United States more like Europe.

why the fuck would anyone want to be like Europe.

its a fucking hellhole.

[Saiwania]

Exactly. Some places have much higher crime than us yet much stricter gun laws.
Like Brazil. There are so many factors that go into crime that trying to make it all about gun laws is absurd.

Most criminals just use whatever is at hand and asides from whatever is in circulation, a country's history has something to do with it. If Brazil already had lots of firearms or a large black market for it, it makes sense that their criminals would get access to guns.

At another extreme, guns are nearly nonexistent in Japan because they were the first nation in the world to impose very strict gun control in the 1600s because Japan's government didn't want their peasantry to be armed that badly, and also because it is geographically advantageous for them being an island to prevent guns from being imported into their country. Japan consistently made sure their supply of guns was low from the beginning.

[Kernen]

The strongest argument against gun control remains the fact that guns are a net positive, but that requires accepting that the presence of guns in society necessarily generates negative effects. The argument's strength is in how the benefits outweigh the harms. When you get to radical absolutes, you end up fighting against your own best argument's underlying facts, and it just helps the grabbers.

A net positivity?? tens of thousands of people die due to gun violence every year. European nations like the UK have significantly less fatalities and the strictest gun control laws. Does the UK have some illegal guns? Yes, like any country in the world, yet we also have a low rate of gun crime because while it may be possible to obtain a gun illegally, it has been made difficult and with a very harsh punishment.

And tens of thousands more a year are benefited by guns. Hundreds of thousands, actually, on the low end of estimates. Millions at the high end.

Incident per incident, guns are a net societal benefit in the US.

[Plzen]

Europe is not some paradise. Some things they do well, some things not so much.

I mean, sure, but compared to the United States basically any country north of the Alps and west of the Oder is a significant improvement in almost all relevant aspects of life.

In any case, the subject is gun control and these countries definitely have a significant leg up on the United States insofar as crime is concerned. I’m inclined to agree, though, that the difference is probably not gun control - European countries seem to be better at building lawful, nonviolent societies in general.

To bring up an off-repeated example, Switzerland is quite heavily armed and still has an extremely peaceful society.

[Novus America]

Europe is not some paradise. Some things they do well, some things not so much.

I mean, sure, but compared to the United States basically any country north of the Alps and west of the Oder sounds like a significant improvement in almost all relevant aspects of life.

In any case, the subject is gun control and these countries definitely have a significant leg up on the United States insofar as crime is concerned. I’m inclined to agree, though, that the difference is probably not gun control - European countries seem to be better at building lawful, nonviolent societies in general.

Actually not necessarily. France for example has a massive unemployment problem, most have a lower GDP per capita than the US, several have lower homeownership rate, and the US tends to have a much larger average housing space per person. I could never afford a house as nice as mine in Western Europe.

Anyways we do not want to be exactly like them. We are different geographically, culturally and socially.

But sure we can and should make things better, but the point remains, given we COULD reduce crime greatly WITHOUT giving up our gun rights, why should we give up our gun rights?

We can reduce our crime massively without touching guns.
Again we had lower crime on the 50s despite gun laws being far more lax than today.

This is like saying “you could cut off your arm to remove a tumor on your arm”. Okay but if you can remove the tumor without losing your arm, why lose your arm?

Gun control is not the only, nor best way to address our crime issues at all.

[The Emerald Legion]

Europe is not some paradise. Some things they do well, some things not so much.

I mean, sure, but compared to the United States basically any country north of the Alps and west of the Oder is a significant improvement in almost all relevant aspects of life.

In any case, the subject is gun control and these countries definitely have a significant leg up on the United States insofar as crime is concerned. I’m inclined to agree, though, that the difference is probably not gun control - European countries seem to be better at building lawful, nonviolent societies in general.

To bring up an off-repeated example, Switzerland is quite heavily armed and still has an extremely peaceful society.

European societies are built upon a framework that extends out of Christian Feudalism culturally. The people don't balk at government impositions upon their rights because they're just happy to be only wage slaves rather than serfs.

[Plzen]

European societies are built upon a framework that extends out of Christian Feudalism culturally. The people don't balk at government impositions upon their rights because they're just happy to be only wage slaves rather than serfs.

I have a slightly different explanation as to why, but yes, Europeans (and, for that matter, Asians) tend to be less assertive about their personal interests before the law. I suspect that is the fundamental root behind Europe being a less crime-ridden society.

[Novus America]

Here is the thing. Gun crime was far higher in the 70s than the 50s. Yet gun control was stricter in the 70s!

So what changed to cause the crime increase? Clearly it was not less gun control.

Rather it was outsourcing, de industrialization (our crime is highest in cities hit worst by outsourcing, that is not a coincidence), collapse of the mental health system, end of the draft, more births out of wedlock etc. You obviously cannot attribute our 70s crime crisis to reduced gun control.

Correct those things, (amongst other steps) you reduce crime without having to reduce gun rights.

[Gusdapperstan]

A net positivity?? tens of thousands of people die due to gun violence every year. European nations like the UK have significantly less fatalities and the strictest gun control laws. Does the UK have some illegal guns? Yes, like any country in the world, yet we also have a low rate of gun crime because while it may be possible to obtain a gun illegally, it has been made difficult and with a very harsh punishment.

The UK never really had a high rate of gun crime even when it was much easier to get them. American and British societies are starkly different in this regard.

May I also have a source on this? Because we really have not had any massacres or shootings since then.

[Pax Nerdvana]

Submitted for your approval: a place where the main road is lined with a half dozen gun stores, each with rows upon rows of rifles and handguns on display and where a friendly salesman will gladly give you one in exchange for a wad of cash. Everyone is walking down the middle of the street, because the only vehicles around are locked up at the lone car dealer, waiting for someone to undergo a background check and sit through a mandatory waiting period before they can be taken to their new home. You may be in Charlton Heston's version of Heaven; or, you may be in...the Twilight Zone.

I’d watch that.

I would too. I wish there was a gun shop on every corner.

[Novus America]

The UK never really had a high rate of gun crime even when it was much easier to get them. American and British societies are starkly different in this regard.

May I also have a source on this? Because we really have not had any massacres or shootings since then.

And how many did you have before? Also several European count have had massacres and shootings despite strict gun control. Maybe that one you had was an outlier that would not have reoccurred regardless.
Correlation =/= causation.

[Gusdapperstan]

May I also have a source on this? Because we really have not had any massacres or shootings since then.

And how many did you have before? Also several European count have had massacres and shootings despite strict gun control. Maybe that one you had was an outlier that would not have reoccurred regardless.
Correlation =/= causation.

And again I say that merely identifying that the reasoning behind an argument is flawed does not necessarily imply that the resulting conclusion is false.

[Novus America]

And how many did you have before? Also several European count have had massacres and shootings despite strict gun control. Maybe that one you had was an outlier that would not have reoccurred regardless.
Correlation =/= causation.

And again I say that merely identifying that the reasoning behind an argument is flawed does not necessarily imply that the resulting conclusion is false.

But it does not show the conclusion is true either.

Point remains, at least for the US guns crime was less a problem when we had fewer gun restrictions. By that you could say gun control increases caused the gun crime increases in the 70s!

But we know that is absurd, because in some cases increased gun control correlates with lower crime, and other case it correlates with higher crime, indicating gun control is not the determining factor.

[Gusdapperstan]

And again I say that merely identifying that the reasoning behind an argument is flawed does not necessarily imply that the resulting conclusion is false.

But it does not show the conclusion is true either.

Point remains, at least for the US guns crime was less a problem when we had fewer gun restrictions. By that you could say gun control increases caused the gun crime increases in the 70s!

But we know that is absurd, because in some cases increased gun control correlates with lower crime, and other case it correlates with higher crime, indicating gun control is not the determining factor.

You can say what you want about crime rate, at least we don't have hundreds of deaths per year from a mentally unstable person obtaining a gun easily and deciding to go to a public place and shoot people.

[The Two Jerseys]

And how many did you have before? Also several European count have had massacres and shootings despite strict gun control. Maybe that one you had was an outlier that would not have reoccurred regardless.
Correlation =/= causation.

And again I say that merely identifying that the reasoning behind an argument is flawed does not necessarily imply that the resulting conclusion is false.

"Oh yeah? Well a not guilty verdict doesn't mean he's innocent either!"

Lame.

[Novus America]

But it does not show the conclusion is true either.

Point remains, at least for the US guns crime was less a problem when we had fewer gun restrictions. By that you could say gun control increases caused the gun crime increases in the 70s!

But we know that is absurd, because in some cases increased gun control correlates with lower crime, and other case it correlates with higher crime, indicating gun control is not the determining factor.

You can say what you want about crime rate, at least we don't have hundreds of deaths per year from a mentally unstable person obtaining a gun easily and deciding to go to a public place and shoot people.

But then the way to address the problem is fixing our mental health crisis.
Again our crisis was not caused by less gun control, because it happened AFTER we increased gun control.

You have still completely failed to show that banning guns is the way to fix our mental health crisis.

[Hurtful Thoughts]

The UK never really had a high rate of gun crime even when it was much easier to get them. American and British societies are starkly different in this regard.

And now they are much lower after we had that massacre in one of our schools, we took necessary measures to prevent further massacres. When was the last time you've heard of a mass school shooting in our country? Zero. In your country? atleast ten every year. No other developed nation has this problem.

Canada.

Also, France.

A little bit of Italy, too.

Gonna ignore Ireland for the moment.

[Kowani]

Actually not necessarily. France for example has a massive unemployment problem,

...France's unemployment rate is 9.1% This sounds absurdly high, but if you take into account the fact that France's Natural Rate of Unemployment is much higher than the US', t's not the economic collapse that it would be over here (for reference, the US' NRU is estimated to be between 4-6%).

most have a lower GDP per capita than the US,

By this metric, Qatar and Macau are now global economic powerhouses, and China is weaker than Belarus.

several have lower homeownership rate,

3 is technically several, sure, but it's not really a point in your favor, since most of Western Europe is better on this than the US.

and the US tends to have a much larger average housing space per person.

This is literally just geography-

But sure we can and should make things better, but the point remains, given we COULD reduce crime greatly WITHOUT giving up our gun rights, why should we give up our gun rights?

We can reduce our crime massively without touching guns.
Again we had lower crime on the 50s despite gun laws being far more lax than today.

This is like saying “you could cut off your arm to remove a tumor on your arm”. Okay but if you can remove the tumor without losing your arm, why lose your arm?

Gun control is not the only, nor best way to address our crime issues at all.

Unfortunately, while neither party seems to be fully committed to reducing crime rates, One of them seems to be enthusiastically pursuing everything that makes them worse, but it happens to be the pro-gun party.

[Kowani]

But it does not show the conclusion is true either.

Point remains, at least for the US guns crime was less a problem when we had fewer gun restrictions. By that you could say gun control increases caused the gun crime increases in the 70s!

But we know that is absurd, because in some cases increased gun control correlates with lower crime, and other case it correlates with higher crime, indicating gun control is not the determining factor.

You can say what you want about crime rate, at least we don't have hundreds of deaths per year from a mentally unstable person obtaining a gun easily and deciding to go to a public place and shoot people.

...Mentally ill people are less likely to commit any crimes than the average person.

[Epluribus Unum]

There are thousands of laws already on guns, we do NOT need more legislation. What we need is States to uphold the laws already current. All the Mass murderers were on the FBI watchlist and did nothing.


Nick Cruz was kicked out of school for death threats, Nick Cruz was visited by Local Police 38 times for issues, 3 times for Death Threats with his Rifles, Nick Cruz told his Girlfriend he was going to kill her, Nick Cruz tols people on Youtube he wanted to be the next School Shooter...

People called and informed the FBI, Nick Cruz still had a rifle and was allowed to kill those kids... The Gun Laws didn't fail you, the Fucking Government upholding the laws did!

[Novus America]

Actually not necessarily. France for example has a massive unemployment problem,

...France's unemployment rate is 9.1% This sounds absurdly high, but if you take into account the fact that France's Natural Rate of Unemployment is much higher than the US', t's not the economic collapse that it would be over here (for reference, the US' NRU is estimated to be between 4-6%).

most have a lower GDP per capita than the US,

By this metric, Qatar and Macau are now global economic powerhouses, and China is weaker than Belarus.

several have lower homeownership rate,

3 is technically several, sure, but it's not really a point in your favor, since most of Western Europe is better on this than the US.

and the US tends to have a much larger average housing space per person.

This is literally just geography-

But sure we can and should make things better, but the point remains, given we COULD reduce crime greatly WITHOUT giving up our gun rights, why should we give up our gun rights?

We can reduce our crime massively without touching guns.
Again we had lower crime on the 50s despite gun laws being far more lax than today.

This is like saying “you could cut off your arm to remove a tumor on your arm”. Okay but if you can remove the tumor without losing your arm, why lose your arm?

Gun control is not the only, nor best way to address our crime issues at all.

Unfortunately, while neither party seems to be fully committed to reducing crime rates, One of them seems to be enthusiastically pursuing everything that makes them worse, but it happens to be the pro-gun party.

GRU is not permanently fixed, it can be changed by policy. France has some severe structural economic issues.

Who said anything about being a global powerhouse though? It is more a measure of wealth per person obviously. Qatar* and Macau are very rich per person (*if you are a citizen not a temporary worker) and the PRC is actually pretty poor per person.
Well also the US higher HDI the much if Western Europe too if you prefer that.

Global power is measured in total GDP obviously, aka GDP per capita x population. So that is a completely silly argument. Especially as the US has a bigger total GDP than the entirety of Western Europe.
So if you want to play that game... also we have a military that is actually funded which helps with that.

And no housing size is not JUST geography, although sure our lower population density helps us, and is another point in our favor, our higher housing size is also a factor of our higher car ownership rate and the way our cities are configured.

Point remains that Western Europe is not all good, nor the the US all bad. Both have advantages in certain areas.

But instead of the “we are better” wanking, that does not change the fundamental point is1 we are not Western Europe and do not want to be, and two we can fix our violence problem in much better ways the gun control.

Sure the Republican Party has some serious issues in this regard, although their rising opposition to outsourcing is good, as outsourcing was one of the major causes of crime issues in cities in the first place. But then we also have the Democrats who are gun grabbers who go soft on violent crime now. (All the most violent cities are Democrat controlled). BOTH parties supported dismantling our mental healthcare system, although for different reasons.

Both parties are completely shit sure.

But such are parties. Parties suck by their very nature.

Both parties are wrong about things, and how to deal with crime. Because for each good policy they have shit one that undermines it.

[Germanic Templars]

I still think that Hughes amendment and NFA needs to go.

[Telconi]

I still think that Hughes amendment and NFA needs to go.

So you believe in common sense gun reform? Me too!