2019-2020 US Election Megathread III: Biden VS Biden

[The Black Forrest]

He isn't? Ok what serious thing has he done against Putin or Russia?

His personal relationship with Netanyahu and the Crown Prince tell otherwise.

And what has he done against Putin or Russia besides behind more Russian deaths than any American president since Wilson? He has also kept sanctions against Russia, threatened to go to war with Russia's major ally (Iran), and continues to arm pro-US groups in Ukraine.

Meh.

Sanctions were already in place. It Obama had set them, he would have reversed them.

Talk is cheap and not really a measurement.

[Jack Thomas Lang]

Meh.

Sanctions were already in place. It Obama had set them, he would have reversed them.

Talk is cheap and not really a measurement.

Wait a minute, what exactly do you want Trump to do to prove he's not a Russian asset? Declare war, send US troops to Ukraine, enforce a no-fly zone over Syria?

Trump extended sanctions. I think any reasonable person can see that's enough to make clear he's not a Russian asset.

[Aureumterra]

Meh.

Sanctions were already in place. It Obama had set them, he would have reversed them.

Talk is cheap and not really a measurement.

Wait a minute, what exactly do you want Trump to do to prove he's not a Russian asset? Declare war, send US troops to Ukraine, enforce a no-fly zone over Syria?

Trump extended sanctions. I think any reasonable person can see that's enough to make clear he's not a Russian asset.

Do people still think Trump is a Russian asset?

[The Black Forrest]

Meh.

Sanctions were already in place. It Obama had set them, he would have reversed them.

Talk is cheap and not really a measurement.

Wait a minute, what exactly do you want Trump to do to prove he's not a Russian asset? Declare war, send US troops to Ukraine, enforce a no-fly zone over Syria?

Trump extended sanctions. I think any reasonable person can see that's enough to make clear he's not a Russian asset.

Well? Understand I once worked in the DoD and you have to understand the Russians are rather "sneaky" (a better word eludes me at the moment). Taking a small hit to hide an asset is something they would do.

The fact Trump always gushes over Putin doesn't help his case. If I had to define trump? I would say he is that guy who wishes he was in the "big leagues" and the big league players use him. We are not safe with trump at the helm.

If there was a serious issue and it required negotiations? We are SO outclassed. Putin would eat him alive.

[The Black Forrest]

Wait a minute, what exactly do you want Trump to do to prove he's not a Russian asset? Declare war, send US troops to Ukraine, enforce a no-fly zone over Syria?

Trump extended sanctions. I think any reasonable person can see that's enough to make clear he's not a Russian asset.

Do people still think Trump is a Russian asset?

How well has trump stopped the Crimea problem?

[Farnhamia]

Wait a minute, what exactly do you want Trump to do to prove he's not a Russian asset? Declare war, send US troops to Ukraine, enforce a no-fly zone over Syria?

Trump extended sanctions. I think any reasonable person can see that's enough to make clear he's not a Russian asset.

Well? Understand I once worked in the DoD and you have to understand the Russians are rather "sneaky" (a better word eludes me at the moment). Taking a small hit to hide an asset is something they would do.

The fact Trump always gushes over Putin doesn't help his case. If I had to define trump? I would say he is that guy who wishes he was in the "big leagues" and the big league players use him. We are not safe with trump at the helm.

If there was a serious issue and it required negotiations? We are SO outclassed. Putin would eat him alive.

Nah, he'll just send Bolton or Tillerson or, you know, maybe ... uhm ... We're screwed.

[Shrillland]

Do people still think Trump is a Russian asset?

How well has trump stopped the Crimea problem?

That's not all that fair, I don't think any president could easily do that without spiraling into open conflict. Even if the Russians hadn't engineered the poll, they would've likely joined Russia if given the chance. We needed to be more strict on them after that, certainly, that's why we got as angry as we did, but it's a bit of a stretch to imagine any outcome where Crimea didn't join Russia one way or the other.

[Jack Thomas Lang]

Well? Understand I once worked in the DoD and you have to understand the Russians are rather "sneaky" (a better word eludes me at the moment). Taking a small hit to hide an asset is something they would do.

I don't give a fuck where you worked. You're suggesting the Crimean sanctions are useless. Well, are you?

[The Black Forrest]

Well? Understand I once worked in the DoD and you have to understand the Russians are rather "sneaky" (a better word eludes me at the moment). Taking a small hit to hide an asset is something they would do.

I don't give a fuck where you worked. You're suggesting the Crimean sanctions are useless. Well, are you?

*shudders* So edgy.

[The Lone Alliance]

Do people still think Trump is a Russian asset?

How well has trump stopped the Crimea problem?

The time we could have stopped the Crimea problem would have been in 2014 when the problem first happened.

[The Black Forrest]

How well has trump stopped the Crimea problem?

That's not all that fair, I don't think any president could easily do that without spiraling into open conflict. Even if the Russians hadn't engineered the poll, they would've likely joined Russia if given the chance. We needed to be more strict on them after that, certainly, that's why we got as angry as we did, but it's a bit of a stretch to imagine any outcome where Crimea didn't join Russia one way or the other.

Wellllll? That's kind of true and yes a real President would have had a hard time. How many of the other Presidents declared themselves the best negotiator EVAH!?

[Farnhamia]

That's not all that fair, I don't think any president could easily do that without spiraling into open conflict. Even if the Russians hadn't engineered the poll, they would've likely joined Russia if given the chance. We needed to be more strict on them after that, certainly, that's why we got as angry as we did, but it's a bit of a stretch to imagine any outcome where Crimea didn't join Russia one way or the other.

Wellllll? That's kind of true and yes a real President would have had a hard time. How many of the other Presidents declared themselves the best negotiator EVAH!?

Yeah ... the Russians would probably be renaming places in Alaska at this point, he's such a good negotiator.

[Jack Thomas Lang]

*shudders* So edgy.

You're really scraping the barrel with your comebacks. First you tried to flash your credentials in lieu of providing an argument, now you're just calling me edgy.

Trump isn't a Russian asset. Does he admire Putin? Probably. But admiration and working for are not the same thing.

[Shrillland]

That's not all that fair, I don't think any president could easily do that without spiraling into open conflict. Even if the Russians hadn't engineered the poll, they would've likely joined Russia if given the chance. We needed to be more strict on them after that, certainly, that's why we got as angry as we did, but it's a bit of a stretch to imagine any outcome where Crimea didn't join Russia one way or the other.

Wellllll? That's kind of true and yes a real President would have had a hard time. How many of the other Presidents declared themselves the best negotiator EVAH!?

Well, that's just Trump being Trump, all the more reason to boot him out this year.

[The Black Forrest]

Wellllll? That's kind of true and yes a real President would have had a hard time. How many of the other Presidents declared themselves the best negotiator EVAH!?

Well, that's just Trump being Trump, all the more reason to boot him out this year.

Trump being trump is kind of a cop out.

Booting him will depend on the evidence of the impeachment. They withholding evidence and people does not help their claims of innocence.

[Shrillland]

Well, that's just Trump being Trump, all the more reason to boot him out this year.

Trump being trump is kind of a cop out.

Booting him will depend on the evidence of the impeachment. They withholding evidence and people does not help their claims of innocence.

Maybe it is a cop out, but there really isn't another way to put it. That he's an absolute failure at most negotiation tactics is well-known, there's nothing to say that hasn't been said or proven on many occasions.

[The East Marches II]

Do people still think Trump is a Russian asset?

How well has trump stopped the Crimea problem?

He gave the Ukrainians weapons that the Obama Administration, in all of its glorious cowardice, refused to. This has stopped the Russian take over of the East of the country. Infact, Trump has done more to fight the Russians than the last two administrations combined. Whether it is because wants to look good is irrelevant. He gave the Ukies arms with which to fight, Americans to train them and has implicitly put a halt line in Ukraine by putting our troops there. Or how about that time we wiped out those Russian mercenaries? Would the last admin have done that? Or escalated the arms race? We also rearmed the Poles, sold the Baltics weapons those cowards in Europe were too scared to do, and have been actively trying to block the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pipeline. He has done more but this is a few of the best. Somehow every single anti-Russian thing he does is a 4D Chess move to help Ivan.

If that makes Trump a Russian asset, I can only imagine what you think of Clinton, Bush or Obama. Or for that matter, what you might think of the leadership of our so called "allies in Europe" given the dealings they have with Ivan.

Edit: Added a bit more

[Valrifell]

Trump has benefited Russian oligarchs in other ways, to deny that is to deny reality. Believe it or not but there are other ways to aid Russian interests that don't involve Ukraine.

[The East Marches II]

Trump has benefited Russian oligarchs in other ways, to deny that is to deny reality. Believe it or not but there are other ways to aid Russian interests that don't involve Ukraine.

Now its Oligarchs instead of Russia! I'll note you didn't even bother to address my post or my points, which speaks volumes as to your inability to counter them. Your blithe proclamation is meaningless, at least put some effort behind things when you imperiously declare anybody who doesn't agree with you to be denying reality.

[The Lone Alliance]

Trump has benefited Russian oligarchs in other ways, to deny that is to deny reality. Believe it or not but there are other ways to aid Russian interests that don't involve Ukraine.

The problem with Russia is nearly anything could benefit them in some way.

Even hurting them benefits them in some way.

[Shofercia]

Trump has benefited Russian oligarchs in other ways, to deny that is to deny reality. Believe it or not but there are other ways to aid Russian interests that don't involve Ukraine.

The problem with Russia is nearly anything could benefit them in some way.

Even hurting them benefits them in some way.

"Hey, let's impose sanctions on the Russians! Oh shit, they can sanction us too, and they're doing it in a way to hurt our agriculture, improve theirs, and blame us for their very own inability to manage their currency, while they conduct fiscal reforms and bring in effective currency managers. Fuck! That was a bad idea!"

It's why I joke about Crimea being retaken. The locals love Russia too much for an internal coup to work, and Russia missiles will prevent any external invasion. Might as well accept the fact.

[Turbofolkia]

Or for that matter, what you might think of the leadership of our so called "allies in Europe" given the dealings they have with Ivan.

Edit: Added a bit more

What do you mean? Ukraine's biggest donor in terms of foreign aid is the EU. In 2016/17, the EU contributed 383,62€ million to Ukraine, which was more than double the US contribution of 184,42€ million. Interestingly, Germany contributed 171,24€ million, which was on top of what was already contributed by the EU. The EU has also given more in military aid than the US.

Sources:
https://www.csis.org/analysis/not-contr ... raine-2014
https://public.tableau.com/views/OECDDA ... VizHome=no

Last month the EU also extended sanctions on Russia due to their behaviour in Ukraine.

Yes, there are many figures in European politics who are close to Russia, but they are not the ones setting the agenda towards Russia and Ukraine.

I don't care enough about America or Trump to comment on whether he is a Russian asset, but the suggestion that Europe has been weak on Russia or has abandoned Ukraine is simply not borne out on the facts.

[The East Marches II]

Or for that matter, what you might think of the leadership of our so called "allies in Europe" given the dealings they have with Ivan.

Edit: Added a bit more

What do you mean? Ukraine's biggest donor in terms of foreign aid is the EU. In 2016/17, the EU contributed 383,62€ million to Ukraine, which was more than double the US contribution of 184,42€ million. Interestingly, Germany contributed 171,24€ million, which was on top of what was already contributed by the EU. The EU has also given more in military aid than the US.

Sources:
https://www.csis.org/analysis/not-contr ... raine-2014
https://public.tableau.com/views/OECDDA ... VizHome=no

Last month the EU also extended sanctions on Russia due to their behaviour in Ukraine.

Yes, there are many figures in European politics who are close to Russia, but they are not the ones setting the agenda towards Russia and Ukraine.

I don't care enough about America or Trump to comment on whether he is a Russian asset, but the suggestion that Europe has been weak on Russia or has abandoned Ukraine is simply not borne out on the facts.

Foreign aid to Ukraine is not the same as lethal aid. One is reminded of the bitter Ukranian response to receiving blankets and old trucks instead of ATGMs to stop Russian tanks. Some help that was. It was the Czechs, Hungarians, Poles and Romanians who got together to give Ukraine at least spare parts for their tanks. For which of course they were duely condemned in the press. They sold out the Baltic states when they had every right legally to purchase arms blocking an arms deal for tanks to "defuse things". They turn a blind eye to Serbia remilitarization while simultaneously making Croatia purchase of F-16s more difficult. They promise Poland aid yet it is Poland alone which must hold the line for the cowards in France and Germany, paying huge sums for modernization while they make a pipeline deal which will give Russia a huge source of hard currency. Germany itself had only 9 working tanks and 4 working planes plus a grounded helicopter fleet not some time ago, I imagine things haven't radically changed. France's military exists on paper. The facts are the European Union will not put up to protect it's border states and sells them out at every turn. They are so gutless that they pay the Sultan a bribe as so not to have to patrol their own borders. They proclaim they love refugees while paying another to keep them in camps. Their moral sensibilities only get triggered when it is their ships doing the patrolling, not when it's a Turkish one ramming a refugee ship. The European Union has abjectly failed in this regard, the facts don't bear out your assertion.

[The Lone Alliance]

The problem with Russia is nearly anything could benefit them in some way.

Even hurting them benefits them in some way.

"Hey, let's impose sanctions on the Russians! Oh shit, they can sanction us too, and they're doing it in a way to hurt our agriculture, improve theirs, and blame us for their very own inability to manage their currency, while they conduct fiscal reforms and bring in effective currency managers. Fuck! That was a bad idea!"

It's why I joke about Crimea being retaken. The locals love Russia too much for an internal coup to work, and Russia missiles will prevent any external invasion. Might as well accept the fact.

Really the only thing that could have worked would have been if the US had been able to get fast movers in the air over Crimea before the Russian Helicopters landed.

And\or enough US boots on the ground to secure the Ukrainan Naval bases for Ukraine, that's about it. Russia wouldn't be willing to shoot through US troops to reach their objective, just like Turkey isn't willing to shoot through Russian troops to get to the Kurds in Syria.

Even then it likely would have resulted in at least parts of Crimea being secured... just not a defensive part of Crimea and Russia would have rendered the Crimea economically and militarily useless for Ukraine and NATO in the process.

Though really when it comes to Russia, or when it comes to any country, any action usually has some sort of work around or Gambit where the country can at least have enough of a sort of limited benefit. Even if it's solely internally.

[New Paine]

Trump has benefited Russian oligarchs in other ways, to deny that is to deny reality. Believe it or not but there are other ways to aid Russian interests that don't involve Ukraine.

Now its Oligarchs instead of Russia! I'll note you didn't even bother to address my post or my points, which speaks volumes as to your inability to counter them. Your blithe proclamation is meaningless, at least put some effort behind things when you imperiously declare anybody who doesn't agree with you to be denying reality.

It’s a fact that Russia has given good deals to Trump when it comes to real estate.....And Trump has shown he has the mind of a mob boss. He “helps” those that have PERSONALLY “helped” him, even if it is at the nation’s expense.