What can be done to improve American public education?

[Geneviev]

Organized sports are actually unnecessary. But math and arts should be treated equally instead of always cutting arts.

Organized sports provide a competitive environment and allow kids to demonstrate leadership and discipline in an unstructured way with less supervision, so it truly allows the best to rise to the top.

It is not a coincidence that corporate hiring departments tend to favor people who have played competitive sports.

Organized sports aren't a bad thing usually, but it's taking away from other things that are just as important.

I think we should be asking the students what they think is important. "Mitochondria is the powerhouse of the cell" is not going to help them when they have to apply for a home loan, do taxes, find a job, get married or anything like that.

Personally I think English and Mathematics should stay as the core subjects, but allow students to take "options" as we call them here right from the start of high school, rather than having a set schoolwide curriculum.

Example: When I was at high school we had six classes, and the timetable was revolving so every day there was one class we didn't have, and we have five periods [classes] a day (ha ha funny right?).

You're an arts-y student? Okay, so your six classes might be English, Math, Drama, Art, Music and... lets say Graphics?

You like textbook kinda stuff, alright, so you might choose English, Math, Economics, Accounting, Computer Science and History...

But in any case it should primarily be up to the student to choose the classes they want to do with only a few school-wide subjects, they're the ones who will be choosing their careers/life path after all.

My two cents is that I started enjoying high school so much more when I was a senior and the classes changed from a rigid set to a choice-based programme. I got to choose what I wanted to do, not what the school threw at me.

No, science classes need to be mandatory (and taught competently). Inadequate science education is how we get creationism and climate change deniers.

Science education might help with those people, but then I was a creationist, so it's not going to solve creationism or climate change denial.

[Cekoviu]

No, science classes need to be mandatory (and taught competently). Inadequate science education is how we get creationism and climate change deniers.

Science education might help with those people, but then I was a creationist, so it's not going to solve creationism or climate change denial.

To be fair, you were like 14 or something (?). The goal is to fix it at least before the end of high school, so still a ways to go.

[Asardia]

I remember a poster my step-father got me for my birthday when I was in HS... TEENAGERS! Leave home and get a job WHILE YOU STILL KNOW EVERYTHING!

I question the validity of the OP stating that he's never gonna use this stuff when he admits to being a junior. How do you know what you will or will not use? The idea of teaching practical life skills keeps getting trotted out, and in some ways I agree... in others though I must ask... wasn't that what parents are for? I mean, really?

Ok, enough grumping from the elderly.

I've taught in Japan for 15 years now, and have my MA/BS in education from the US. In the 15 years I've been here, the one factor I would say that makes Japanese schools excel over their US counterparts isn't the money (Japan is almost dead last in terms of school funding), it isn't the time (Though Japan is in school MUCH longer, 240 days out of the year), it's that Japan as a society values and cares for education. It isn't just lip service. Rightly or wrongly, most Japanese feel that the path to a better career, a better life is through education. My kids might dream of being soccer players or YouTubers to a point, but by the end of junior high, they switch over to much more pragmatic dreams (Civil servant is the most popular) and have plans on how to get there. When we have open school (Which we do twice a term, on a weekday, during the day time) the school is PACKED with parents coming to see their children in class. At the end of this month, we will have our culture festival, it will be attended by every parent and VIPs from the city (The BOE, the mayor's office, the local police and fire stations) will come.

That's the main difference. America claims to value education, Japan actually does. It doesn't just toss money at it, the whole country makes it well known that education is of immense value and the kids respond to that. Maybe not happily, and lord knows we have problems over here, but given how in this very thread you see the disdain some have for education... That's the difference right there and what I think needs to change to improve US education.

Something my professor waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back in Ed 101 said has stuck with me all these years. She herself was a veteran classroom teacher and she told all of us budding future educators that if we thought we could change society by changing schools, we were in the wrong profession. Schools mirror the society that creates them, not the other way around. The whole purpose of a school is to make new citizens (i.e. people living in the area, nothing to do with legal citizenship) by imparting the values and knowledge that the PREVIOUS generation found important or meaningful. That's it.

I question the validity of the OP stating that he's never gonna use this stuff when he admits to being a junior. How do you know what you will or will not use? The idea of teaching practical life skills keeps getting trotted out, and in some ways I agree... in others though I must ask... wasn't that what parents are for? I mean, really?

Parents don't always teach that stuff, and while they should, schools definitely need to have practical things in their curriculum. If that was the case, then what's the point of even attending school? Might as well should just give us half the year back and limit classes like P.E, since it should be up the parents to the family to get adequate exercise.

It's true that we don't know exactly what will be used later in life. However, I feel that argument falls apart when further examined. Why aren't we forced to learn how to build computers in school? We might need that in the future. My school is currently going through renovations. Why don't we all take mandatory classes on how to build and plan for it? See where I'm going with this? At the end of the day, I view this as arbitrary. Apparently learning imaginary numbers and quadratics because I might be an electrical engineer is important to my school, but requiring programming classes just in case I become a software engineer isn't? It doesn't make any sense to me

I've taught in Japan for 15 years now, and have my MA/BS in education from the US. In the 15 years I've been here, the one factor I would say that makes Japanese schools excel over their US counterparts isn't the money (Japan is almost dead last in terms of school funding), it isn't the time (Though Japan is in school MUCH longer, 240 days out of the year), it's that Japan as a society values and cares for education. It isn't just lip service. Rightly or wrongly, most Japanese feel that the path to a better career, a better life is through education. My kids might dream of being soccer players or YouTubers to a point, but by the end of junior high, they switch over to much more pragmatic dreams (Civil servant is the most popular) and have plans on how to get there. When we have open school (Which we do twice a term, on a weekday, during the day time) the school is PACKED with parents coming to see their children in class. At the end of this month, we will have our culture festival, it will be attended by every parent and VIPs from the city (The BOE, the mayor's office, the local police and fire stations) will come.

I'm glad you brought this up. I didn't know much about the Japanese education system, but this seems like something that may work here in the US. I had suggested previously that we begin the more realistic life-based classes in elementary school, which definitely allows for students to examine their futures now and plan accordingly.

education is of immense value and the kids respond to that. Maybe not happily, and lord knows we have problems over here, but given how in this very thread you see the disdain some have for education... That's the difference right there and what I think needs to change to improve US education.

The disdain for public education does stem from the overall mess it currently is. If we taught American students in a similar way to Japanese ones, would this work? Starting from the youth and going from there should make a difference.

Something my professor waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back in Ed 101 said has stuck with me all these years. She herself was a veteran classroom teacher and she told all of us budding future educators that if we thought we could change society by changing schools, we were in the wrong profession. Schools mirror the society that creates them, not the other way around. The whole purpose of a school is to make new citizens (i.e. people living in the area, nothing to do with legal citizenship) by imparting the values and knowledge that the PREVIOUS generation found important or meaningful. That's it.

I was hinting at this above, but now I'm starting to think how we can implement a better system. If we make the changes to mirror Japanese education, for example, would the people in charge make a better system, or one that was even worse than the last? It does seem that the current generation of youth are more liberal and willing to change, so maybe this can happen, albeit slowly.

[Geneviev]

Science education might help with those people, but then I was a creationist, so it's not going to solve creationism or climate change denial.

To be fair, you were like 14 or something (?). The goal is to fix it at least before the end of high school, so still a ways to go.

I doubt education would do much. Depending on the beliefs, it's possible to just ignore what you're taught.

[NERVUN]

I question the validity of the OP stating that he's never gonna use this stuff when he admits to being a junior. How do you know what you will or will not use? The idea of teaching practical life skills keeps getting trotted out, and in some ways I agree... in others though I must ask... wasn't that what parents are for? I mean, really?

Parents don't always teach that stuff, and while they should, schools definitely need to have practical things in their curriculum. If that was the case, then what's the point of even attending school? Might as well should just give us half the year back and limit classes like P.E, since it should be up the parents to the family to get adequate exercise.

Schools are supposed to be there for things that parents cannot cover (Or takes an inordinate amount of time/materials to cover). Supposedly life skills would be something that most parents are aware of, can do, and impart within a lesson or two.

It's true that we don't know exactly what will be used later in life. However, I feel that argument falls apart when further examined. Why aren't we forced to learn how to build computers in school? We might need that in the future. My school is currently going through renovations. Why don't we all take mandatory classes on how to build and plan for it? See where I'm going with this? At the end of the day, I view this as arbitrary. Apparently learning imaginary numbers and quadratics because I might be an electrical engineer is important to my school, but requiring programming classes just in case I become a software engineer isn't? It doesn't make any sense to me

See the bit about the knowledge thought important by the PREVIOUS generation. As technology progresses, it's becoming more and more important and thus tech/programming courses are seeing their way into the curriculum. Compared to what I got in high school, you guys are lightyears ahead. The thing about math is simply that math makes the world work. By NOT understanding it, you miss out on how things actually work. Also, see the problem of building up. Teaching you how to assemble a computer I can do in an afternoon. Math... takes a wee bit longer and missing a foundation makes it difficult if not impossible.

It's like saying "Well, we teach kids Dr. Seuss in first grade so... they don't need to read again unless they go to college when we shove Shakespeare at them."

I've taught in Japan for 15 years now, and have my MA/BS in education from the US. In the 15 years I've been here, the one factor I would say that makes Japanese schools excel over their US counterparts isn't the money (Japan is almost dead last in terms of school funding), it isn't the time (Though Japan is in school MUCH longer, 240 days out of the year), it's that Japan as a society values and cares for education. It isn't just lip service. Rightly or wrongly, most Japanese feel that the path to a better career, a better life is through education. My kids might dream of being soccer players or YouTubers to a point, but by the end of junior high, they switch over to much more pragmatic dreams (Civil servant is the most popular) and have plans on how to get there. When we have open school (Which we do twice a term, on a weekday, during the day time) the school is PACKED with parents coming to see their children in class. At the end of this month, we will have our culture festival, it will be attended by every parent and VIPs from the city (The BOE, the mayor's office, the local police and fire stations) will come.

I'm glad you brought this up. I didn't know much about the Japanese education system, but this seems like something that may work here in the US. I had suggested previously that we begin the more realistic life-based classes in elementary school, which definitely allows for students to examine their futures now and plan accordingly.

I'm afraid you missed the point. The reason why my students are pragmatic is because they have an entire nation telling them to BE pragmatic. It's drummed into kids here from the get-go that dreams of being Captain Tsubasa are nice, but the reality of life in Japan is what job you get depends on what school you go to for college, which depends on your high school and how you do on your exam, which depends on your entrance exam at the end of junior high. There's a trade off of course (There always is), but from day one Japanese kids are told that the only way to excel is via education. Pie-in-the-sky dreams are very quickly squashed when it comes time.

education is of immense value and the kids respond to that. Maybe not happily, and lord knows we have problems over here, but given how in this very thread you see the disdain some have for education... That's the difference right there and what I think needs to change to improve US education.

The disdain for public education does stem from the overall mess it currently is. If we taught American students in a similar way to Japanese ones, would this work? Starting from the youth and going from there should make a difference.

You have to change the culture first. The culture needs to value education, then will you see that kind of result. Right now, education is not valued (Though to be fair, THAT particular problem has been with the US for a very, very long time. As far back as the founding). America values street smarts and inborn ability over 'book learning'. As long as we do that... you can't get to Japan from the US.

Something my professor waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back in Ed 101 said has stuck with me all these years. She herself was a veteran classroom teacher and she told all of us budding future educators that if we thought we could change society by changing schools, we were in the wrong profession. Schools mirror the society that creates them, not the other way around. The whole purpose of a school is to make new citizens (i.e. people living in the area, nothing to do with legal citizenship) by imparting the values and knowledge that the PREVIOUS generation found important or meaningful. That's it.

I was hinting at this above, but now I'm starting to think how we can implement a better system. If we make the changes to mirror Japanese education, for example, would the people in charge make a better system, or one that was even worse than the last? It does seem that the current generation of youth are more liberal and willing to change, so maybe this can happen, albeit slowly.

Sadly, I'm more pessimistic. It seems to me that we're going backwards rather than forwards in terms of valuing education. That said, I'm also outside the US looking in so I might be mistaken and it could just be the last, loud death gasp... but...

[Maldegem]

Offer free education for smart students with poor parents. If that kid succeeds he gets a better job and will pay the money that was invested back in taxes in the long run.

[Cedoria]

Biggest thing is support not just teachers in being able to teach what they need to teach but students and yes PARENTS. The biggest predictor of student success is parental 'giving a shit'. If your parent has to send you to school but doesn't care if you do well, then you'll internalise that attiude. If the parent is a drug addict and the kid has to look after themselves and their siblings and can't do their homework, that's a huge problem.

Also get rid of this shit were school scores determine how much funding a school says. When one school has 10% of kids with behaviour management issues and another school can self-select to filter out kids with such issues, the latter one is going to have higher scores even if it's teaching is shit. It has less needs for funding then the former school, which has a more difficult clientele that requires more diverse methods of support.

Heck, just institute national needs-based funding while you're at it. That's what all the really good educational systems do globally. Which is probably why it'll never be done.

[Cedoria]

Offer free education for smart students with poor parents. If that kid succeeds he gets a better job and will pay the money that was invested back in taxes in the long run.

Heck even very dumb people probably will. Dumb people are quite capable of failing upwards if they have enough connections or rat cunning to get ahead (The President being only one example, a lot of pharmecutical reps are barely literate but very good at talking nonsense jargon).

Long-term economic growth is best determined by adequate educational funding, it is far and away the biggest booster of long-term GDP and national wealth. Funding education properly is a no-brainer for any government that's not utterly insane and self-destructive.

[Ayytaly]

Has anyone here ever attended a North American public (private for you UK lads) school in the city before? It's HORRID! The teachers are gutless, the students disrupt the entire class, and half the girls are pregnant. Not to mention that 1/4 of the boys were either in gangs or born to thug/ex-convict parents, whom tend to provoke fights with the principal for suspending their precious little boy for bringing a knife.

Dropping out was the best thing I ever did. It's not worth sticking in such a facility where, instead of departing with a diploma, chances are you leave with a death certificate.

[Cappuccina]

Has anyone here ever attended a North American public (private for you UK lads) school in the city before? It's HORRID! The teachers are gutless, the students disrupt the entire class, and half the girls are pregnant. Not to mention that 1/4 of the boys were either in gangs or born to thug/ex-convict parents, whom tend to provoke fights with the principal for suspending their precious little boy for bringing a knife.

Dropping out was the best thing I ever did. It's not worth sticking in such a facility where, instead of departing with a diploma, chances are you leave with a death certificate.

It's not great here in the rural environment either. Back when I was younger, I helped my mom out on her job (she was a health educator in our county)....the high school students here were so ignorant they didn't even know about basic bodily functions or that foetuses weren't in your stomach. It was pretty sad.

[New haven america]

Has anyone here ever attended a North American public (private for you UK lads) school in the city before? It's HORRID! The teachers are gutless, the students disrupt the entire class, and half the girls are pregnant. Not to mention that 1/4 of the boys were either in gangs or born to thug/ex-convict parents, whom tend to provoke fights with the principal for suspending their precious little boy for bringing a knife.

Dropping out was the best thing I ever did. It's not worth sticking in such a facility where, instead of departing with a diploma, chances are you leave with a death certificate.

Yes.

It was the best school in the city, one of the top 500 schools in the country, and had Honors, AP, and IB programs as well as 25+ student organizations and clubs.

[The Free Joy State]

Has anyone here ever attended a North American public (private for you UK lads) school in the city before? It's HORRID! The teachers are gutless, the students disrupt the entire class, and half the girls are pregnant. Not to mention that 1/4 of the boys were either in gangs or born to thug/ex-convict parents, whom tend to provoke fights with the principal for suspending their precious little boy for bringing a knife.

Dropping out was the best thing I ever did. It's not worth sticking in such a facility where, instead of departing with a diploma, chances are you leave with a death certificate.

I have to correct this piece of misinformation. US public schools are the equivalent to UK state schools (not "private schools"). Brits often call private schools "public schools", but they are not government-funded schools that provide education free to students (those are state schools); private schools are independent, fee-paying institutions with vastly variable qualities of education.

I can't comment extensively on the OP as I'm not a US citizen, though as a Brit, I favour a national curriculum (my understanding is that the USA doesn't have one) with set developmentally appropriate learning standards in all major subjects, to ensure that every child is receiving an equal quality of education in a broad and balanced range of subjects.

Also, this is something that should really be done internationally:

I’d suggest emphasis too on trade school and work, instead of just only pushing kids to go to university.

[Pax Nerdvana]

I’d suggest emphasis too on trade school and work, instead of just only pushing kids to go to university.

I agree 100%. All they push is college, as if that's the only option. They seem to forget that the trades help keep our country running.

[LimaUniformNovemberAlpha]

Many educated Americans go overseas instead of teaching in America. Perhaps we should be asking the ones who leave what it was about it that made them leave, and what could be done to win them back?

[Ayytaly]

Has anyone here ever attended a North American public (private for you UK lads) school in the city before? It's HORRID! The teachers are gutless, the students disrupt the entire class, and half the girls are pregnant. Not to mention that 1/4 of the boys were either in gangs or born to thug/ex-convict parents, whom tend to provoke fights with the principal for suspending their precious little boy for bringing a knife.

Dropping out was the best thing I ever did. It's not worth sticking in such a facility where, instead of departing with a diploma, chances are you leave with a death certificate.

Yes.

It was the best school in the city, one of the top 500 schools in the country, and had Honors, AP, and IB programs as well as 25+ student organizations and clubs.

What city, though?

[NERVUN]

Many educated Americans go overseas instead of teaching in America. Perhaps we should be asking the ones who leave what it was about it that made them leave, and what could be done to win them back?

Hrmmm... not quite right. There are many people who wander outside of the US to teach for a bit and then wander back. However, it would be a mistake to equate many (Not all thank you very much) of them as teachers who wanted to actually teach but because of conditions in the US were forced out.

Many of them are just doing the world traveling bit before settling down to work. They really have no interest in long term teaching, never majored in Education, and are mostly using it as both resume padder and as base camp +income for a year or three vacation around the world. The teaching is besides the point and indeed I've met a number who have very little idea what or how to teach and just coast because they're American, usually White, and thus MUST BE able to teach English. It is frustrating as someone who knows how to teach and wants to teach and works at being a better teacher.

[Saiwania]

Many educated Americans go overseas instead of teaching in America. Perhaps we should be asking the ones who leave what it was about it that made them leave, and what could be done to win them back?

I'd find it hard to believe that many countries overseas would pay their teachers more than is the case in the US. As if a poorer country can afford to have the amenities that Americans are used to, asides from maybe their capital cities. Many people who go overseas to teach, do so because they don't require a fancy master's degree or as much expensive university education to teach, like would be required to teach in K-12 or at college level in the US.

If we want cheaper teachers, we need to not have such a high barrier to entry for teaching. I wouldn't mind it so much if doctors could become doctors in only 4 years as opposed to 8 years, like I hear is the case in Argentina. We can perhaps explore ways to really fight credential inflation without sacrificing the quality of licensed professions too much.

[New haven america]

Many educated Americans go overseas instead of teaching in America. Perhaps we should be asking the ones who leave what it was about it that made them leave, and what could be done to win them back?

1. I'd find it hard to believe that many countries overseas would pay their teachers more than is the case in the US. As if a poorer country can afford to have the amenities that Americans are used to, asides from maybe their capital cities. 2. Many people who go overseas to teach, do so because they don't require a fancy master's degree or as much expensive university education to teach, like would be required to teach in K-12 or at college level in the US.

3. If we want cheaper teachers, we need to not have such a high barrier to entry for teaching. 4. I wouldn't mind it so much if doctors could become doctors in only 4 years as opposed to 8 years, like I hear is the case in Argentina. We can perhaps explore ways to really fight credential inflation without sacrificing the quality of licensed professions too much.

1. Well believe it then, because it's the truth. (The US pays teachers the least out of any developed country in the world, because of course it does)
2. That only applies to English teachers in Asia, rest of them can get easy upper 5 figure, lower 6 figure jobs. (Well, it depends, Japan pays the lowest because it's the most sought after country, while China pays the highest because it's the least sought after)
3. Or we could just pay teachers for their master-degree level skills
4. I would

[Kubra]

Many educated Americans go overseas instead of teaching in America. Perhaps we should be asking the ones who leave what it was about it that made them leave, and what could be done to win them back?

I'd find it hard to believe that many countries overseas would pay their teachers more than is the case in the US. As if a poorer country can afford to have the amenities that Americans are used to, asides from maybe their capital cities. Many people who go overseas to teach, do so because they don't require a fancy master's degree or as much expensive university education to teach, like would be required to teach in K-12 or at college level in the US.

If we want cheaper teachers, we need to not have such a high barrier to entry for teaching. I wouldn't mind it so much if doctors could become doctors in only 4 years as opposed to 8 years, like I hear is the case in Argentina. We can perhaps explore ways to really fight credential inflation without sacrificing the quality of licensed professions too much.

Sure, but to call it "teaching" is reeeeeaaaal generous
To be an actual English teacher in a real classroom setting you gotta have that masters, or you gonna be a white monkey or an overworked private English school tutor.

[Kowani]

You know what would be great? If AP exams didn’t cost 160 bucks. If the SAT didn’t cost 70. Wanna send those scores into a college? That’ll be 15 bucks a test. Oh, your college application fee is 50-80 dollars? Tough luck. Don’t quite qualify for a fee waiver, but it’s still too fucking expensive? Tough shit.

Oh, you wanted to go to college while being poor? Better qualify for a scholarship! Man, it sucks not having computers to register with, huh?

[Cappuccina]

You know what would be great? If AP exams didn’t cost 160 bucks. If the SAT didn’t cost 70. Wanna send those scores into a college? That’ll be 15 bucks a test. Oh, your college application fee is 50-80 dollars? Tough luck. Don’t quite qualify for a fee waiver, but it’s still too fucking expensive? Tough shit.

Oh, you wanted to go to college while being poor? Better qualify for a scholarship! Man, it sucks not having computers to register with, huh?

You know, sometimes you really make me agree with you.

[Kowani]

You know what would be great? If AP exams didn’t cost 160 bucks. If the SAT didn’t cost 70. Wanna send those scores into a college? That’ll be 15 bucks a test. Oh, your college application fee is 50-80 dollars? Tough luck. Don’t quite qualify for a fee waiver, but it’s still too fucking expensive? Tough shit.

Oh, you wanted to go to college while being poor? Better qualify for a scholarship! Man, it sucks not having computers to register with, huh?

You know, sometimes you really make me agree with you.

I have my moments.
They’re rare, but they happen.

[Saiwania]

Oh, you wanted to go to college while being poor? Better qualify for a scholarship! Man, it sucks not having computers to register with, huh?

College doesn't help a lot of people anyways, it is often a bunch of liberal BS that doesn't have much real world application. Someone who is poor is arguably better off going to trade school and once they do a well paying trade, if they're so inclined- with the extra money they now get from having a "real job" they can go to college if they want. The path to riches is gradual more often than not.

There are some exceptions, but a lot of degrees are obsolete or are not a safe bet within today's economy in terms of getting good pay from it, unless you go into the financial, legal, or medical fields. You want to work for Wall Street if you're in big finance. Doctors and Lawyers get paid a lot generally speaking, and their services are needed in nearly every location, so if you can get in- you can probably do quite well.

People are constantly complaining about how expensive lawyers and medical services cost, because for the US at least- it is where the money is at for now. Go for not what you want to do, but rather what is most useful to other people where you live.

[New haven america]

Oh, you wanted to go to college while being poor? Better qualify for a scholarship! Man, it sucks not having computers to register with, huh?

1. College doesn't help a lot of people anyways, it is often a bunch of liberal BS that doesn't have much real world application. 2. Someone who is poor is arguably better off going to trade school and once they do a well paying trade, if they're so inclined- with the extra money they now get from having a "real job" they can go to college if they want. The path to riches is gradual more often than not.

3. There are some exceptions, but a lot of degrees are obsolete or are not a safe bet within today's market in terms of getting good pay from it, unless you go into the financial, legal, or medical fields. You want to work for Wall Street if you're in big finance. Doctors and Lawyers get paid a lot generally speaking, and their services are needed in nearly every location, so if you can get in- you can probably do quite well.

4. People are constantly complaining about how expensive lawyers and medical services cost, because for the US at least- it is where the money is at for now. Go for not what you want to do, but rather what is most useful to other people where you live.

1. The entirety of the developed world and those wanting to immigrate to a developed country (Even from another developed country) would disagree.
2. Trade school is also considered a form of higher education and also costs a pretty penny.
3. Says someone who's never tried to get a degree
4. The only reason health services in the Us is expensive is because the US refuses to create a UHC system, despite already being the largest spender on healthcare in the world. Yeah, the US creating a UHC would actually be cheaper and save the country money in the long run.

[Saiwania]

3. Says someone who's never tried to get a degree.

I did get an Associates degree with Cum Laude honors. It wasn't worth a damn in terms of profit. It only ever cost me money and time that I can't get back. The entire process was very inefficient and dragged out. I often couldn't get required courses during certain semesters because of a relative lack of demand for those classes. There should definitely be far quicker and cheaper ways to be trained up enough for a more decent job that is more in sync with where the economy is at for a given year.