Hypothetical: A Crippled Annie

[The Free Joy State]

I didn't answer the poll. It didn't represent my chosen option.

I'm not sure all of the respondents did answer the poll.

... And, polls aren't always accurate. Technically -- not that I'm saying that's what's happening here, of course -- it's possible for players to keep voting with puppets to give their preferred option a clear lead. Also, it's possible for passing people unfamiliar with the thread to vote at random. So, it's the people actually interacting with the thread that are actually representative.

not really, a lot of people just read the threads and then vote or make 1 post with a reasonable opinion

And here we go again... Your "my opinion/unreasonable opinions" dichotomy.

... You have just outlined the entire issue with these threads -- and why they are not really hypotheticals -- in one tiny post.

Real hypotheticals encourage engagement and people to answer from their real perspective (which is possible, because the scenario does not ask you to be a whole other person -- that's RP and does not belong here) and does not categorise answers as "reasonable" and "other".

Your threads, however, seek to see everyone agree with you and dismiss everyone who does not as "not answering from their true perspective".

I actually am answering from my true perspective, IM: I would not wish to have the mind of a genocidal murderer in this body (which is the kind of Invasion of the Body Snatchers level shit this is) and I would not like to live in a state where I was unable to move or talk -- that you would be fine with that... good for you.

But if everyone's perspective must be the same as yours' -- or they must always be "wrong" or joking in your threads -- maybe you should think long and hard about whether you should be asking such questions.

"I am right and everyone else is wrong" is a bad basis for discussion.

[Neanderthaland]

Right. So we asked IM if this crippled Annie was actual her. And he refuses to outright deny it, which means "yes."

some hypotheticals operate on imperfect knowledge

this is one of those

you have a vague suspicion you COULD be the Witch Queen, you don't know

do you take the King's offer?

that's how its intended to operate

Yeah, no. Your dodginess on this issue is tantamount to confirmation. You may as well just admit it.

[Galloism]

Coyote doesn’t die.

Old coyotes never die. They just fade away as they fall down a canyon.

I’ve seen Wile E Coyote flattened by a safe like a pancake and walk it off. I don’t think gravity is a problem.

He can suffer, but never die.

[Neanderthaland]

Old coyotes never die. They just fade away as they fall down a canyon.

I’ve seen Wile E Coyote flattened by a safe like a pancake and walk it off. I don’t think gravity is a problem.

He can suffer, but never die.

We should make him the patron saint of NSG.

[Neo Kerala]

Nah, I'd roll to the gates and...

Burn the fence down,
Burn burn burn,
Throw myself into a pool,
Because of things,
Burn The Fence Down!
Burn it to the ground!

[Victorious Decepticons]

I thought the witch-queen was the maniac, and she lost the war and then ended up in some kind of magical jail or similarly decommissioned forever~?

Right. So we asked IM if this crippled Annie was actual her. And he refuses to outright deny it, which means "yes."

Ah.

I'll still go with my original answer, though of course, this would mean that there would be a rematch against the king once "I" got my memory back. Therefore, the king is an idiot for not just finishing the job. Or maybe his offer is just a ruse to get me in a place where he can do exactly that?

With "crippled Annie's" memory currently offline, it makes sense that she would be stuck going with the information that was presented or that she could figure out. She'd have no way of knowing that the king actually has a really big beef with her unless he gave it away through his body language or tone of voice. The "family," on the other hand, is quite obviously fishy.

[Infected Mushroom]

Right. So we asked IM if this crippled Annie was actual her. And he refuses to outright deny it, which means "yes."

Ah.

I'll still go with my original answer, though of course, this would mean that there would be a rematch against the king once "I" got my memory back. Therefore, the king is an idiot for not just finishing the job. Or maybe his offer is just a ruse to get me in a place where he can do exactly that?

With "crippled Annie's" memory currently offline, it makes sense that she would be stuck going with the information that was presented or that she could figure out. She'd have no way of knowing that the king actually has a really big beef with her unless he gave it away through his body language or tone of voice. The "family," on the other hand, is quite obviously fishy.

All of this is very astute observation and fair comment

These are reasonable theories that I can neither confirm nor deny

[Caracasus]

You think I'm impressed by, "Oh I would kill myself on the slight probability that I'm a mass murderer" or "I would sacrifice myself and my entire family if it means DEMOCRACY/REVOLUTION"

Not so much, if anything, I'm seeing an inability to engage with the parameters of the thought experiment

most of you couldn't even "rise up" against your own bosses/schools let alone a whole government and you'd definitely sacrifice neither yourself nor your over ones for some ideals; let's not conveniently over-inflate your level of "courage" and "self sacrifice"

Right. You stick up these settings that feel like the start to some epic fantasy/dystopian hellscape and people will act like protagonists and characters in said scenarios. If you genuinely wanted people to engage with the point of this dilemma - whether or not to sell out your principles for comfort and a cure then you'd have phrased this in more or less the same way Iffren suggested.

You also want us to feel sorry for a character you created to be a genocidal monster. That won't happen, I'm sorry about that. I'm absolutely certain that if you erased my memory of, for instance, Hitler or Pol Pot and showed me clips from their past I'd probably feel sorry watching Hitler's terrible and weird family upbringing or watching Pol Pot struggle to get to grips with what he was supposed to be studying and the frustration and anger both felt. Trouble is though, that like Annie in your fictional scenarios, they went on to do really fucking terrible things. There's a point where you can't really expect people to empathise with someone, and I reckon mass murder and genocide is probably one of those.

I'm sure that in your fictional universe there are plenty of people who suffered as much or worse than this Annie character who somehow managed not to do a genocide.

Finally. Democracy huh? If you want people to not go for the revolution/suicide/whatever options stop pushing the idea that feudalism is great and setting it so all options tacitly support it. This might come as a bit of a surprise, but I'm not a fan of liberal democracy. Having said that, if you gave me a choice between living in a feudal society or living under capitalism, I'd pick capitalism not just because of the technology (although of course to a significant degree, levels of technology have a lot of influence in how society is structured) but because feudalism is really, really shit. I've said this before but I really struggle to see how you seem to support it given you watch Game of Thrones. The entire series might as well have been named "Why Feudalism is Really Shit - oh and tits" I'd even argue GRR Martin lays it on a bit thick sometimes - so I'm struggling to understand how that part of the show missed you.

[Alvecia]

I think I can speak for a lot of us when I say that there is something seriously bent about what you consider possible, likely, or appropriate.

That's my take.

the polls say otherwise

Your polls have been unreliable ever since that one particular one was flooded by a rush of puppets all named IM<number>.

[Caracasus]

Right. So we asked IM if this crippled Annie was actual her. And he refuses to outright deny it, which means "yes."

some hypotheticals operate on imperfect knowledge

this is one of those

you have a vague suspicion you COULD be the Witch Queen, you don't know

do you take the King's offer?

that's how its intended to operate

You're not taking your audience into account at all IM, and you're also railroading people into picking the "correct" option.

Your audience are all nerds who like politics. Mention nerdy stuff or political stuff - even in passing and people will go for it. If you want people to answer in a genuine way as they'd personally act then rethink how you set up your hypotheticals. Consider these two hypotheticals.

1. You and a friend own a stake in a small, but reasonably profitable business with several others. Your friend, a lawyer, comes to you with a plan. Due to a loophole in the contract, it would be possible for you both to make an awful lot of money off this business perfectly legally. However in doing so, the others who own a stake in the business would lose out.

2. You and a brave band of fellow adventurers have been travelling for days on the king's road before taking a detour into the enchanted forest, ruled over by the dread queen of the fey. After hacking your way through a troll ambush the party rests. You are approached as you sleep in your dreams by Grodfell, a gnome merchant who is communicating telepathically with just you - or so you assume. He tells you that together you could make thousands of gold pieces from the shared orphan rescuing and heroism enterprise you and your fellow adventurers have set up. The problem is that your fellow adventurers would lose out. Oh, and the gnome might or might not be the fey queen in disguise.

The first question will let people answer something like they might answer in real life. The second one is the start to a bad rpg campaign. You can either have people play a role in a fantasy realm you created or you can have people answer a hypothetical something like how they'd act in real life.

[Infected Mushroom]

some hypotheticals operate on imperfect knowledge

this is one of those

you have a vague suspicion you COULD be the Witch Queen, you don't know

do you take the King's offer?

that's how its intended to operate

You're not taking your audience into account at all IM, and you're also railroading people into picking the "correct" option.

Your audience are all nerds who like politics. Mention nerdy stuff or political stuff - even in passing and people will go for it. If you want people to answer in a genuine way as they'd personally act then rethink how you set up your hypotheticals. Consider these two hypotheticals.

1. You and a friend own a stake in a small, but reasonably profitable business with several others. Your friend, a lawyer, comes to you with a plan. Due to a loophole in the contract, it would be possible for you both to make an awful lot of money off this business perfectly legally. However in doing so, the others who own a stake in the business would lose out.

2. You and a brave band of fellow adventurers have been travelling for days on the king's road before taking a detour into the enchanted forest, ruled over by the dread queen of the fey. After hacking your way through a troll ambush the party rests. You are approached as you sleep in your dreams by Grodfell, a gnome merchant who is communicating telepathically with just you - or so you assume. He tells you that together you could make thousands of gold pieces from the shared orphan rescuing and heroism enterprise you and your fellow adventurers have set up. The problem is that your fellow adventurers would lose out. Oh, and the gnome might or might not be the fey queen in disguise.

The first question will let people answer something like they might answer in real life. The second one is the start to a bad rpg campaign. You can either have people play a role in a fantasy realm you created or you can have people answer a hypothetical something like how they'd act in real life.

... are you saying people on NSG don’t have imagination/have limited imagination?

[Caracasus]

You're not taking your audience into account at all IM, and you're also railroading people into picking the "correct" option.

Your audience are all nerds who like politics. Mention nerdy stuff or political stuff - even in passing and people will go for it. If you want people to answer in a genuine way as they'd personally act then rethink how you set up your hypotheticals. Consider these two hypotheticals.

1. You and a friend own a stake in a small, but reasonably profitable business with several others. Your friend, a lawyer, comes to you with a plan. Due to a loophole in the contract, it would be possible for you both to make an awful lot of money off this business perfectly legally. However in doing so, the others who own a stake in the business would lose out.

2. You and a brave band of fellow adventurers have been travelling for days on the king's road before taking a detour into the enchanted forest, ruled over by the dread queen of the fey. After hacking your way through a troll ambush the party rests. You are approached as you sleep in your dreams by Grodfell, a gnome merchant who is communicating telepathically with just you - or so you assume. He tells you that together you could make thousands of gold pieces from the shared orphan rescuing and heroism enterprise you and your fellow adventurers have set up. The problem is that your fellow adventurers would lose out. Oh, and the gnome might or might not be the fey queen in disguise.

The first question will let people answer something like they might answer in real life. The second one is the start to a bad rpg campaign. You can either have people play a role in a fantasy realm you created or you can have people answer a hypothetical something like how they'd act in real life.

... are you saying people on NSG don’t have imagination/have limited imagination?

No, quite the opposite. I'm saying don't get pissy when people engage with the mounds of extra detail about the world you create. If you want people to answer a hypothetical, set it up as clearly and succinctly as you possibly can. There's a reason why the trolley problem doesn't explain why people are on the tracks, the gauge of the railway, why you happen to be in the signalbox and what the CEO of the railway company had for lunch.

Your hypothetical situations are 90% setup for some roleplaying game and 10% hypothetical question and because of that they're muddled, confusing and hard to understand. That's on you, not literally everyone who engages with what you've written.

And of course, that's before we get into how you railroad people into making what you think is the "right" decision by spamming polls with puppets and going back and editing vast swathes of your initial hypothetical until people say what you want to hear.

[Ifreann]

You are defining "rational interaction" as "gives the answer I think is right".

for this hypothetical, most answers are fine

I'm even willing to consider a simple No (as a principled stand) to be reasonable

You aren't the arbiter of rationality.

---

No, IM dear, it's been long-established that there is a difference between hypotheticals ("what would you -- as a person -- do in X situation") and unnecessary fantasy yarns. It has also been established that people do not like having the right/wrong paradigm that you try to lay out for us.

It has also been established that I, like many people, have a moral abhorrence for genocidal murderers -- so that is absolutely in accordance with my RL personality (which you say we are meant to follow... or is that only unless it is inconvenient for your pretend play?)

As for your highly doubting I'd ever kill myself, you may not like to believe that I would choose that -- if I was ever reduced to a shell that could not move or speak and had to be drugged extensively -- but my family know my wishes, were my life ever in such an intolerable state.

That you cannot acknowledge them because they do not coincide with your own is just another flaw with your so-called "hypotheticals"

Oh, and IM:

No-one cares about impressing you with our answers. Nobody.

These threads are supposed to be fun. If they are not, then the only one making the so is the one attempting to make rules regarding our engagement.

I can't speak for anybody else but I cannot take your position seriously. I am unable to believe that people would kill themselves over something so trivial.

That's my take on this.

But it's not trivial. You keep saying "it's possible that you're Witch Hitler", but we all know that that really means "You 100% are Witch Hitler". This is just how these kinds of simplistic narratives work. We are operating at a higher level of genre savvy than you seem to realise.

[Heloin]

I can't speak for anybody else but I cannot take your position seriously. I am unable to believe that people would kill themselves over something so trivial.

That's my take on this.

But it's not trivial. You keep saying "it's possible that you're Witch Hitler", but we all know that that really means "You 100% are Witch Hitler". This is just how these kinds of simplistic narratives work. We are operating at a higher level of genre savvy than you seem to realise.

Us - * do anything other the roll into the pond*
IM - "Aha! You were Witch Hitler all along!"

[The New California Republic]

But it's not trivial. You keep saying "it's possible that you're Witch Hitler", but we all know that that really means "You 100% are Witch Hitler". This is just how these kinds of simplistic narratives work. We are operating at a higher level of genre savvy than you seem to realise.

Us - * do anything other the roll into the pond*
IM - "Aha! You were Witch Hitler all along!"

Me: *Rolls into the pond and drowns*
IM: "You wouldn't do that"
Me: "Yes, I would"
IM: "YOU WOULDN'T DO THAT"
Me: "But I w..."
IM: "ARE YOU TRYING TO IMPRESS ME?"
Me:

[Hammer Britannia]

I say we create a gang.

We'll call it, the pond rollers. Anyone who would roll into the pond can join.

[Neo Kerala]

I say we create a gang.

We'll call it, the pond rollers. Anyone who would roll into the pond can join.

After burning the palace gates down.

[Infected Mushroom]

I can't speak to this scenario but were I the crippled lady's dad, I might be quite eager to have her married off or just taken off of my hands in general. This is medieval Europe we're talking about. Of course her primary value would be- how good of a baby machine could she be? Assuming she is too crippled to move much and is thus more of a burden to care for than a woman who can help on the farm, cook or clean, or whatever.

... Yes. This is all generally true for the values of the time.

However, she could be worth far more to the family if she gets them a title of nobility, working in concert with the Crown.

That is what is being offered, lands and titles (and in those days, it mattered)

[Infected Mushroom]

OT: Crippled Annie would be a great name for one of those mixed drinks that involve every kind of alcoholic beverage...

Indeed.

"I'd like to order a glass of Crippled Annie."

[TURTLESHROOM II]

I might ask the same of your cereal. You seem awfully upset that I am not as enamoured with this thread as you are.

No, I'm awfully upset that you'd come in here and take the time to bash OP for having an imagination. I don't like people rushing in and ruining other people's fun if there isn't an actual reson to do so.

My nation name comes off as feminine to non-Irish speakers. I've been called "she" on this forum many times over the years. This is easier than correcting people. I'm also rather amused by this overreaction of yours, an unexpected bonus.

My apologies, then. The reason I associated "HE/HIM" in your signature is because that specific, exact format is used almost entirely by the American far-left. If you had said "I am a man" in your signature, or "my name sounds femenine, but it's masculine in Irish" (etc.), it would be better than to use a format that, in America, is loaded.

[Andsed]

I might ask the same of your cereal. You seem awfully upset that I am not as enamoured with this thread as you are.

No, I'm awfully upset that you'd come in here and take the time to bash OP for having an imagination. I don't like people rushing in and ruining other people's fun if there isn't an actual reson to do so.

We are not bashing him for his imagination. We are attacking his tendencies to make his thread absurdly complex and inconsistent and then expecting us to find a reason to engage with the thread and railroading people if they come up with solutions that he did not consider.

[The New California Republic]

I might ask the same of your cereal. You seem awfully upset that I am not as enamoured with this thread as you are.

No, I'm awfully upset that you'd come in here and take the time to bash OP for having an imagination. I don't like people rushing in and ruining other people's fun if there isn't an actual reson to do so.

This is a thread in NSGeneral, it isn't a closed RP where the OP can play with their toys on their own or with a select group of friends for fuck's sake.

You'll find that the criticisms of the thread and the previous associated threads are perfectly valid, if you'd actually take the time to read them.

[Ifreann]

I might ask the same of your cereal. You seem awfully upset that I am not as enamoured with this thread as you are.

No, I'm awfully upset that you'd come in here and take the time to bash OP for having an imagination. I don't like people rushing in and ruining other people's fun if there isn't an actual reson to do so.

I'm not ruining the thread because the OP has an imagination. I'm criticising the thread because it's bad.

My nation name comes off as feminine to non-Irish speakers. I've been called "she" on this forum many times over the years. This is easier than correcting people. I'm also rather amused by this overreaction of yours, an unexpected bonus.

My apologies, then. The reason I associated "HE/HIM" in your signature is because that specific, exact format is used almost entirely by the American far-left. If you had said "I am a man" in your signature, or "my name sounds femenine, but it's masculine in Irish" (etc.), it would be better than to use a format that, in America, is loaded.

Oh, I am also a leftist. And my nation name doesn't sound masculine in Irish, it's just a word, not a name.

[Infected Mushroom]

So as I predicted (regarding human nature) most would choose Yes (people want to be healed and they want nobility/status). However, humans being humans, we cannot help but feel a bit of resentment when we feel we aren’t treated with respect in the process or are being exploited.

However, we tend to do what yields the greatest material benefits. Even where we know there will some resentment and where some principles (ex not everyone is a monarchist) May have to be compromised.

Hence we have a solid majority saying yes

[Galloism]

So as I predicted (regarding human nature) most would choose Yes (people want to be healed and they want nobility/status). However, humans being humans, we cannot help but feel a bit of resentment when we feel we aren’t treated with respect in the process or are being exploited.

However, we tend to do what yields the greatest material benefits. Even where we know there will some resentment and where some principles (ex not everyone is a monarchist) May have to be compromised.

Hence we have a solid majority saying yes

Notably, I answered yes but it’s a prelude to betrayal and the return of Witch Hitler. It’s much easier to replace a monarch with another monarch than a democratic society.