NationStates

Posted: **Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:53 am**

-Ocelot- wrote:
Antityranicals wrote:Given how our entire society is geared towards subconsciously moving children the other way, I don't think that religion stands much of a chance winning the subliminal battle. The main reason why such a significant group of people are still religious is rather simple: there is a God, and anyone who has any proficiency in logic can see why this must be so.

I can't think of a country that actively discourages children from receiving religious education, other than North Korea and maybe China. The other 99,5% of the world's countries either encourage children to be religious or do neither.

There is a difference between society and government. While religious education isn't technically banned, it is constantly counteracted by the leftist narrative taught in schools and a culture which says that there is nothing beyond subjective desires which matters, and that anyone who teaches that one religion is right while others are wrong is a "hater".

Posted: **Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:01 am**

Geneviev wrote:According to this article, children are targeted by religious indoctrination because they are more vulnerable to believe what they are told. One of the things children are taught to believe by evangelical Christian groups is that anyone who does not believe in their God will be tortured for eternity in hell. The effects of this teaching can include that they are frightened into believing something they wouldn't believe otherwise. Some children can be traumatized by the idea of hell. The article describes religious trauma syndrome, which can be an effect of teaching children about hell.

However, this article claims that it would be worse for parents to not teach children about hell. They consider it the responsibility of parents to protect their children from hell by telling them how to be saved according to their interpretation of the Bible. They call it the God-given responsibility of parents to show their children God's love, which they believe includes teaching them about hell.

What do you think, NSG? Should children be taught about hell or is it wrong?

In my opinion, teaching children about hell is immoral because it will force them to believe in something without giving them a choice.

In school, they should only be taught about hell as part of a Religious Education class.

At home, I'd probably put it up to the parents. I wouldn't teach it, and I certainly would oppose it being taught, but I don't think legislating against it would achieve much.

Posted: **Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:11 am**

Antityranicals wrote:1. I'm not saying that God exists because people believe it to be so, but that people believe that God exists because he does.
2 and 3. Art must have a maker. The universe has a maker, and must because of it's complexity, and therefore the universe is art.
4. But we know that someone did it. And we can from there begin to conclude more about that maker.

5. The beginning of the universe would seem to belong in its own thread [/notamod]

Estanglia wrote:
Geneviev wrote:According to this article, children are targeted by religious indoctrination because they are more vulnerable to believe what they are told. One of the things children are taught to believe by evangelical Christian groups is that anyone who does not believe in their God will be tortured for eternity in hell. The effects of this teaching can include that they are frightened into believing something they wouldn't believe otherwise. Some children can be traumatized by the idea of hell. The article describes religious trauma syndrome, which can be an effect of teaching children about hell.

However, this article claims that it would be worse for parents to not teach children about hell. They consider it the responsibility of parents to protect their children from hell by telling them how to be saved according to their interpretation of the Bible. They call it the God-given responsibility of parents to show their children God's love, which they believe includes teaching them about hell.

What do you think, NSG? Should children be taught about hell or is it wrong?

In my opinion, teaching children about hell is immoral because it will force them to believe in something without giving them a choice.

In school, they should only be taught about hell as part of a Religious Education class.

At home, I'd probably put it up to the parents. I wouldn't teach it, and I certainly would oppose it being taught, but I don't think legislating against it would achieve much.

That is a point. There's no practical way you could legislate what parents teach -- though, where teachings do become coercive, manipulative and using fear, you could stiffen up protections from religious abuse. That way, minors have some recourse -- at least.

Posted: **Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:20 am**

The Free Joy State wrote:
Antityranicals wrote:1. I'm not saying that God exists because people believe it to be so, but that people believe that God exists because he does.
2 and 3. Art must have a maker. The universe has a maker, and must because of it's complexity, and therefore the universe is art.
4. But we know that someone did it. And we can from there begin to conclude more about that maker.

5. The beginning of the universe would seem to belong in its own thread [/notamod]

Estanglia wrote:
In school, they should only be taught about hell as part of a Religious Education class.

At home, I'd probably put it up to the parents. I wouldn't teach it, and I certainly would oppose it being taught, but I don't think legislating against it would achieve much.

That is a point. There's no practical way you could legislate what parents teach -- though, where teachings do become coercive, manipulative and using fear, you could stiffen up protections from religious abuse. That way, minors have some recourse -- at least.

I could see that.

Maybe add the teaching of hell to manipulate your children into believing your religion to the same category as abusive speech designed to manipulate the child into doing what the parent wants. That way, it doesn't stop the teaching of hell as part of your religion (as long as it doesn't stray into manipulation) but also helps provide at least some protection from the use of hell to manipulate a child.

Posted: **Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:21 am**

Estanglia wrote:
The Free Joy State wrote:5. The beginning of the universe would seem to belong in its own thread [/notamod]

That is a point. There's no practical way you could legislate what parents teach -- though, where teachings do become coercive, manipulative and using fear, you could stiffen up protections from religious abuse. That way, minors have some recourse -- at least.

I could see that.

Maybe add the teaching of hell to manipulate your children into believing your religion to the same category as abusive speech designed to manipulate the child into doing what the parent wants. That way, it doesn't stop the teaching of hell as part of your religion (as long as it doesn't stray into manipulation) but also helps provide at least some protection from the use of hell to manipulate a child.

Policing that line would be the issue. Both finding out it was happening in the first place, and then determining if that line had been crossed would be staggeringly difficult, surely.

Posted: **Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:28 am**

Estanglia wrote:
The Free Joy State wrote:5. The beginning of the universe would seem to belong in its own thread [/notamod]

That is a point. There's no practical way you could legislate what parents teach -- though, where teachings do become coercive, manipulative and using fear, you could stiffen up protections from religious abuse. That way, minors have some recourse -- at least.

I could see that.

Maybe add the teaching of hell to manipulate your children into believing your religion to the same category as abusive speech designed to manipulate the child into doing what the parent wants. That way, it doesn't stop the teaching of hell as part of your religion (as long as it doesn't stray into manipulation) but also helps provide at least some protection from the use of hell to manipulate a child.

That would seem to allow for parents to pass on their beliefs: "Johnny, your Father and I believe there's a place called Hell and bad people go there" while at least providing some protection from manipulation like: "Johnny, there's a pit full of fire and if you don't obey our church -- if you ever break away -- you'll fall into it and suffer forever!"

Alvecia wrote:
Estanglia wrote:
I could see that.

Maybe add the teaching of hell to manipulate your children into believing your religion to the same category as abusive speech designed to manipulate the child into doing what the parent wants. That way, it doesn't stop the teaching of hell as part of your religion (as long as it doesn't stray into manipulation) but also helps provide at least some protection from the use of hell to manipulate a child.

Policing that line would be the issue. Both finding out it was happening in the first place, and then determining if that line had been crossed would be staggeringly difficult, surely.

Policing would be an issue. But child abuse usually has a longer statute of limitations, so -- if it was disclosed later, it could be prosecuted. Also, it's a mandatory disclosure offence, so -- if a child disclosed to a teacher or doctor -- they would have to report religious abuse to the designated authorities.

It would be difficult, of course.

Posted: **Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:28 am**

Alvecia wrote:
Estanglia wrote:
I could see that.

Maybe add the teaching of hell to manipulate your children into believing your religion to the same category as abusive speech designed to manipulate the child into doing what the parent wants. That way, it doesn't stop the teaching of hell as part of your religion (as long as it doesn't stray into manipulation) but also helps provide at least some protection from the use of hell to manipulate a child.

Policing that line would be the issue. Both finding out it was happening in the first place, and then determining if that line had been crossed would be staggeringly difficult, surely.

True.

Considering the topic, I don't think that there's gonna be a solution that isn't difficult (other than doing nothing).

The complete banning of the teaching of hell would be hard to enforce (especially because the minor(s) in question might even know that what they're being taught is illegal), and might also violate religious freedoms depending upon how they're interpreted.

The 'you can teach it, just not abusively' solution faces both the 'hard to enforce' problem and the problem of where the line is.

The only (relatively) easy solution would be the banning of the teaching of hell in any school except as part of a specific class that teaches them as ideas, not fact, but that faces the problem of not stopping the teaching of it outside of school.

Posted: **Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:52 am**

Of course. Hell is just a word, after all. Best to explain what it means.

Posted: **Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:48 pm**

Evil Dictators Happyland wrote:
Europa Undivided wrote:Grossly heretical misinterpretation.

But not entirely inaccurate.

It is as innacurate as the 152 mm of a KV-2.

Posted: **Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:51 pm**

If Hell is to be taught, I'm most in favor of it being done at a young age (perhaps 5) and the imagery shown should be of the lake of fire and all the other trappings that entail what is known about Hell. If they're a wimp, they'll be traumatized maybe; but if it doesn't phase them one bit, that can only make me proud.

Posted: **Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:57 pm**

The concept of heaven and hell for children was originally invented to keep people from doing bad things, it exists in many religions. Nowadays, it’s easy to tell kids exactly what’s good and bad, and once they become mature enough, they’ll be able to tell for themselves, you don’t need to fearmonger kids with this heaven hell bs

Posted: **Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:58 pm**

Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana wrote:The concept of heaven and hell for children was originally invented to keep people from doing bad things, it exists in many religions. Nowadays, it’s easy to tell kids exactly what’s good and bad, and once they become mature enough, they’ll be able to tell for themselves, you don’t need to fearmonger kids with this heaven hell bs

What a gigantic assumption

Posted: **Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:19 pm**

Europa Undivided wrote:
Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana wrote:The concept of heaven and hell for children was originally invented to keep people from doing bad things, it exists in many religions. Nowadays, it’s easy to tell kids exactly what’s good and bad, and once they become mature enough, they’ll be able to tell for themselves, you don’t need to fearmonger kids with this heaven hell bs

What a gigantic assumption

Care to elaborate or are you just gonna leave it at that because we'll find a way to tear your arguments apart?

Posted: **Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:35 pm**

Hammer Britannia wrote:
Europa Undivided wrote:What a gigantic assumption

Care to elaborate or are you just gonna leave it at that because we'll find a way to tear your arguments apart?

I mean unless those christians who invented it were puritans, its pretty presumptuous

Posted: **Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:37 pm**

Holy Tedalonia wrote:
Hammer Britannia wrote:Care to elaborate or are you just gonna leave it at that because we'll find a way to tear your arguments apart?

I mean unless those christians who invented it were puritans, its pretty presumptuous

I mean... what exactly would you call "Big fire pit where you go to if you don't follow my rules"? It's a boogeyman, and not the dancing kind

Posted: **Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:43 pm**

https://youtu.be/ThcThv7Yaq0

Posted: **Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:47 pm**

Gormwood wrote:https://youtu.be/ThcThv7Yaq0

This honestly did give me a chuckle.

Posted: **Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:57 pm**

Hammer Britannia wrote:
Holy Tedalonia wrote:I mean unless those Christians who invented it were puritans, its pretty presumptuous

I mean... what exactly would you call "Big fire pit where you go to if you don't follow my rules"? It's a boogeyman, and not the dancing kind

When someone tells me customer service is hell, I don't cower in fear because of some crappy job I may or not get in the future. No, I just look for ways to simply avoid it.

Posted: **Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:04 pm**

Holy Tedalonia wrote:
Hammer Britannia wrote:I mean... what exactly would you call "Big fire pit where you go to if you don't follow my rules"? It's a boogeyman, and not the dancing kind

When someone tells me customer service is hell, I don't cower in fear because of some crappy job I may or not get in the future. No, I just look for ways to simply avoid it.

Except you gotta constantly be as virtuous as caesar's wife to avoid hell. People waste their whole lives trying to get good with God and never truly experience the pleasures of this world because "they're evil!" I'm tired of hearing words such as sinful, haram, evil or demonic being used to describe things including but not limited to:

•Gay people
•Swearing
•Premarital sex
•me having had two Muslim girlfriends
•Drinking alcohol
•Strip clubs

Like seriously enjoy being alive cause if this is it, you only got one chance

Posted: **Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:10 pm**

Holy Tedalonia wrote:
Hammer Britannia wrote:I mean... what exactly would you call "Big fire pit where you go to if you don't follow my rules"? It's a boogeyman, and not the dancing kind

When someone tells me customer service is hell, I don't cower in fear because of some crappy job I may or not get in the future. No, I just look for ways to simply avoid it.

My dude, there is a big difference between 'customer service that will mildly suck' and 'infinite punishment for shit that may be out of your control'

Posted: **Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:47 pm**

Fahran wrote:
New haven america wrote:Love, happiness, emotional and mental support, acceptance, compassion, etc... Despite for some reasons constantly wanting to go to war and have conflict, the human mind doesn't actually handle violence and negative emotions all too well.

Ironically, Satanists support and encourage most of those behaviors.

It's weird to see ostensible leftists shilling for Rand wrapped in edginess. Because that's what the most popular brand of Satanism, LaVeyan Satanism, is. Frankly, it's a pretty irredeemable ideology.

Except I'm not on the left, so fuck your overused, unoriginal, and inapplicable buzzword that you guys love to use whenever you talk about things you don't like.

(PS: I'm not attacking you, I'm attack your overused buzzwords)

Posted: **Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:58 pm**

Holy Tedalonia wrote:
Hammer Britannia wrote:I mean... what exactly would you call "Big fire pit where you go to if you don't follow my rules"? It's a boogeyman, and not the dancing kind

When someone tells me customer service is hell, I don't cower in fear because of some crappy job I may or not get in the future. No, I just look for ways to simply avoid it.

False equivalency.

Working for pay at a job you don't like=/=Eternal, unending, and inescapable punishment and torture because you didn't spend your entire life praising a dude that lives in the sky.

Posted: **Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:03 pm**

Hammer Britannia wrote:
Holy Tedalonia wrote:When someone tells me customer service is hell, I don't cower in fear because of some crappy job I may or not get in the future. No, I just look for ways to simply avoid it.

My dude, there is a big difference between 'customer service that will mildly suck' and 'infinite punishment for shit that may be out of your control'

Its how I always viewed it though, if I want to be on my best behavior; work my way to avoid it rather then cower and fear it.

Posted: **Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:05 pm**

Holy Tedalonia wrote:
Hammer Britannia wrote:My dude, there is a big difference between 'customer service that will mildly suck' and 'infinite punishment for shit that may be out of your control'

Its how I always viewed it though, if I want to be on my best behavior; work my way to avoid it rather then cower and fear it.

You realize that the extremeness of Hell was a scare tactic used by early Christians to get people to convert, right?

I mean, you bought right into your plan, and whether you want to admit it or not, you're fearful of Hell.

Posted: **Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:07 pm**

Rojava Free State wrote:
Holy Tedalonia wrote:When someone tells me customer service is hell, I don't cower in fear because of some crappy job I may or not get in the future. No, I just look for ways to simply avoid it.

Except you gotta constantly be as virtuous as caesar's wife to avoid hell. People waste their whole lives trying to get good with God and never truly experience the pleasures of this world because "they're evil!" I'm tired of hearing words such as sinful, haram, evil or demonic being used to describe things including but not limited to:

•Gay people
•Swearing
•Premarital sex
•me having had two Muslim girlfriends
•Drinking alcohol
•Strip clubs

Like seriously enjoy being alive cause if this is it, you only got one chance

You pretty much point out all the things that radical sects preach against, except for gay marriage, because that's still a hot button topic all across the christian community. Hell, both protestants and Catholics (save for a few oddball churches) usually drink alcohol in service, unless they have kids in the room, then opting for grape juice.

NationStates

Teaching children about hell