Teaching children about hell

[New haven america]

Except you gotta constantly be as virtuous as caesar's wife to avoid hell. People waste their whole lives trying to get good with God and never truly experience the pleasures of this world because "they're evil!" I'm tired of hearing words such as sinful, haram, evil or demonic being used to describe things including but not limited to:

•Gay people
•Swearing
•Premarital sex
•me having had two Muslim girlfriends
•Drinking alcohol
•Strip clubs

Like seriously enjoy being alive cause if this is it, you only got one chance

You pretty much point out all the things that radical sects preach against, except for gay marriage, because that's still a hot button topic all across the christian community. Hell, both protestants and Catholics (save for a few oddball churches) usually drink alcohol in service, unless they have kids in the room, then opting for grape juice.

Uh no, normal/casual/widely accepted sects preach against all of those as well. (Except for alcohol in Church, where kids are even allowed to drink it)

[Holy Tedalonia]

Its how I always viewed it though, if I want to be on my best behavior; work my way to avoid it rather then cower and fear it.

You realize that the extremeness of Hell was a scare tactic used by early Christians to get people to convert, right?

I mean, you bought right into your plan, and whether you want to admit it or not, you're fearful of Hell.

Im not scared of it, nor do I dont get a sense of dread out of it. I only really look at it much like I look at potentially bad things to happen to me in the world, to simply avoid. If hell is real and given my present knowledge about it, its something to best be avoided, and thats all it is to it for me.

Maybe its because I dont tend to dwell to long on the bad things that could happen to me or its because I tend to think things through with cold hearted logic on a regular basis, when it comes to maximizing comfort and minimizing pain.

[Holy Tedalonia]

You pretty much point out all the things that radical sects preach against, except for gay marriage, because that's still a hot button topic all across the christian community. Hell, both protestants and Catholics (save for a few oddball churches) usually drink alcohol in service, unless they have kids in the room, then opting for grape juice.

Uh no, normal/casual/widely accepted sects preach against all of those as well. (Except for alcohol in Church, where kids are even allowed to drink it)

I was reading that post under the assumption of the classic "if you do x your going to hell." Swearing and premarital sex is frowned upon sure, but its usually does not meet the "go to hell" quota. Strip Clubs is a little iffy for me, but thats because its rarely talked about in most churches I go to, and Ive been to several for years.

[New haven america]

You realize that the extremeness of Hell was a scare tactic used by early Christians to get people to convert, right?

I mean, you bought right into your plan, and whether you want to admit it or not, you're fearful of Hell.

1. Im not scared of it, nor do I dont get a sense of dread out of it. 2. I only really look at it much like I look at potentially bad things to happen to me in the world, to simply avoid. If hell is real and given my present knowledge about it, its something to best be avoided, and thats all it is to it for me.

3. Maybe its because I dont tend to dwell to long on the bad things that could happen to me or its because I tend to think things through with cold hearted logic on a regular basis, when it comes to maximizing comfort and minimizing pain.

1. Denial is the first stage of acceptance
2. No pre-marital sex, not mixed fabrics, go to Church every single Sunday and Christmas/Easter, don't be gay, give 10% of everything you own to the Church, bless every single meal you eat, no swearing, no dating anyone of another religion or no religion unless they're willing to convert, no divorce, making sure to have an animal sacrifice every week, You can't own any pictures or statues of Jesus, etc... And that's only the surface level of what you can, cannot, and have to do in order to get into Heaven.
3. Thinking things through with only logic is inherently Anti-Christian and can get you sent to Hell. I implore you to instead think only about how God and Jesus helped you or how they're affecting any given situation.

[New haven america]

Uh no, normal/casual/widely accepted sects preach against all of those as well. (Except for alcohol in Church, where kids are even allowed to drink it)

1. I was reading that post under the assumption of the classic "if you do x your going to hell." 2. Swearing and premarital sex is frowned upon sure, but its usually does not meet the "go to hell" quota. 3. Strip Clubs is a little iffy for me, but thats because its rarely talked about in most churches I go to, and Ive been to several for years.

1. It's a classic for a reason
2. … Yes, they will get you sent to Hell (As they're Wrathful and Lustful). And having partners when a relationship has ended without a death is considered adultery.
3. It's lustful, so yes, they're a sin.

[Auralia]

There's a lot of relativism in this thread, including from the OP.

People should believe in true things and disbelieve in false things. If hell does not exist, then it is wrong to teach children that it does exist. If hell does exist, then it is wrong to teach children that it does not exist.

There may be compelling reasons to withhold knowledge of the existence of hell from very young children, but the reason provided in the OP is such a reason. If hell does exist, then the stronger belief induced by fear of hell is a positive characteristic rather than a negative one.

[UniversalCommons]

This depends on what you describe as hell. Basically you get hell when you put all the monsters and jerks in one place, then put all the decent people in the other. They are essentially the same place, but one group destroys it and the other makes it better. It is essentially a reminder to be a decent person or you will end up in a place full of jerks for all eternity. There are different descriptions of what hell is.

[Holy Tedalonia]

Again, a lot of this sounds like your grabbing them purely from those puritan chaps. A very specific sect, that preaches damnation if one does not do the upmost to seek purity and salvation.

[New haven america]

Again, a lot of this sounds like your grabbing them purely from those puritan chaps. A very specific sect, that preaches damnation if one does not do the upmost to seek purity and salvation.

No, I'm pulling from standard Catholic/Orthodox/Protestant beliefs.

Just because you don't like something doesn't make it untrue.

[Holy Tedalonia]

Again, a lot of this sounds like your grabbing them purely from those puritan chaps. A very specific sect, that preaches damnation if one does not do the upmost to seek purity and salvation.

No, I'm pulling from standard Catholic/Orthodox/Protestant beliefs.

Just because you don't like something doesn't make it untrue.

Now I don't know orthodox pretty well, but for the other two. For catholics you go and seek penance or indulgence to resolve problems of a tainted soul that would otherwise bar you from heaven. And well, Ive been going to protestant churches for years mostly baptist churches, and most if not all had the attitude of "God died on the cross for our sins," and so "by accepting god, you go to heaven," is pretty much the gist of them.

[Rojava Free State]

If you're gonna teach them about hell, you probably should teach them about Azathoth first so hell doesn't seem as scary and traumatizing.

It's kinda like how I deal with my mom. If I accidentally plug the toilet and gotta tell her, I'll be like "mom I got a girl pregnant!" And when she yells " WHAT!? " I'll be like "I'm just kidding, I accidentally flooded the toilet upstairs." She then is more desensitized to the actual issue at hand and doesn't proceed to throw a bowl of Chinese food at me

[Rojava Free State]

No, I'm pulling from standard Catholic/Orthodox/Protestant beliefs.

Just because you don't like something doesn't make it untrue.

Now I don't know orthodox pretty well, but for the other two. For catholics you go and seek penance or indulgence to resolve problems of a tainted soul that would otherwise bar you from heaven. And well, Ive been going to protestant churches for years mostly baptist churches, and most if not all had the attitude of "God died on the cross for our sins," and so "by accepting god, you go to heaven," is pretty much the gist of them.

So Catholicism makes you pay for forgiveness? Isn't that basically like divine extortion? And as for protestantism, it sure seems unfair that they're gonna let anyone be saved by accepting that Jesus is god, but if you were a nice guy that wasn't Christian you're screwed

[New haven america]

No, I'm pulling from standard Catholic/Orthodox/Protestant beliefs.

Just because you don't like something doesn't make it untrue.

Now I don't know orthodox pretty well, but for the other two. For catholics you go and seek penance or indulgence to resolve problems of a tainted soul that would otherwise bar you from heaven. And well, Ive been going to protestant churches for years mostly baptist churches, and most if not all had the attitude of "God died on the cross for our sins," and so "by accepting god, you go to heaven," is pretty much the gist of them.

That's the same for all of them.

Unfortunately, it's accepted by the vast majority of denominations and sects that just accepting Jesus ain't gonna cut it and that you have 10,000 different rules and regulations you need to follow. Again, sorry, but just because you don't like something doesn't make it untrue.

[New haven america]

Now I don't know orthodox pretty well, but for the other two. For catholics you go and seek penance or indulgence to resolve problems of a tainted soul that would otherwise bar you from heaven. And well, Ive been going to protestant churches for years mostly baptist churches, and most if not all had the attitude of "God died on the cross for our sins," and so "by accepting god, you go to heaven," is pretty much the gist of them.

So Catholicism makes you pay for forgiveness? Isn't that basically like divine extortion? And as for protestantism, it sure seems unfair that they're gonna let anyone be saved by accepting that Jesus is god, but if you were a nice guy that wasn't Christian you're screwed

It was invented during the crusades in order to get funding for the wars or get religious soldiers to join the Church's army, and they made so much money that they decided to keep it around. There's also Tithing, which requires that a follower give or pay the Church 10% of everything they own or all the money they have.

And yes, it basically is divine extortion, tis why Martin Luther and the Protestant Reformation happened.

[Rojava Free State]

So Catholicism makes you pay for forgiveness? Isn't that basically like divine extortion? And as for protestantism, it sure seems unfair that they're gonna let anyone be saved by accepting that Jesus is god, but if you were a nice guy that wasn't Christian you're screwed

It was invented during the crusades in order to get funding for the wars or get religious soldiers to join the Church's army, and they made so much money that they decided to keep it around. There's also Tithing, which requires that a follower give or pay the Church 10% of everything they own or all the money they have.

And yes, it basically is divine extortion, tis why Martin Luther and the Protestant Reformation happened.

I think crass said it best. "We sit in holy judgement condemning those that stray. We offer our forgiveness but first we'll make you pay." The Catholic church found the best way to finesse people's cash, and it's by playing on their fear of hellfire

[Reploid Productions]

Standby for thread trawl.

Alrighty, the threadjacks about creationism and the definition of Semite/anti-Semite have been split out of the thread. Let's not see them crop up again.

Speaking of the creationism threadjack, *** Antityranicals, WARNED for threadjacking/spam. ***

Ei, here I am, so you aren't Christian anymore? Look at the guy. Making a topic about the importance of faith in the past, and now he comes doubting about the existence of hell?

Sadly, hypocrisy is one of the biggest problems in today's society.

Does nothing to address the actual topic of the thread, check. Appears to be little more than attacking the OP for daring to express a different opinion than they had previously, check. Flamebait, check.

You will repent it.

Nothing to clarify.

Adds nothing to the topic of discussion, check. Confirms zero intention of actually adding anything to the topic of discussion, check. Spam, check.

I can't tell, otherwise masonds would ban me.

I'm not sure if you're trying to cook up a portmanteau of "mod" and "Mason" or something, but the intent to throw shade is clear. So that's more flamebait, check.

Let's just be coherent

Backhandedly calling your opponents incoherent. Flaming, check.

Let's just end all this mess and *BUMP*.

Completely unnecessary spam post after instigating an extensive threadjack on the definition of Semite/anti-Semite, check.

Given my colleague's previous reprimand failed to impress on you the need to adjust your conduct, on we go to the next step toward deletion. If you don't want to end up getting deleted, you need to adjust your behavior to fit within the bounds of the site rules.

*** Vaukiai, 3-day ban for flaming, baiting, spamming, threadjacking. ***

My thanks to the folks who tried their best to keep the thread on topic around the pair of threadjacks. Thread unlocked, you may resume your debate on the merits and demerits of teaching children about the religious concept of hell.


~Evil Forum Empress Rep Prod the Ninja Mod
~She who wields the Banhammer; master of the mighty moderation no-dachi Kiritateru Teikoku

[GLDF]

They should be taught that bad people go to hell, but God doesn't punish for being the wrong religion as long as you are a good person.

[Kowani]

There's a lot of relativism in this thread, including from the OP.

People should believe in true things and disbelieve in false things. If hell does not exist, then it is wrong to teach children that it does exist. If hell does exist, then it is wrong to teach children that it does not exist.

There may be compelling reasons to withhold knowledge of the existence of hell from very young children, but the reason provided in the OP is such a reason. If hell does exist, then the stronger belief induced by fear of hell is a positive characteristic rather than a negative one.

We shall leave out the moral implications of what amounts to threatening children, and instead look at the results. Does teaching about hell have any benefit in terms of moral actions? While we cannot say that every Christian was taught about hell, we cannot say that it was a small percentage. And…welp, look at that. Nothing.

[Telconi]

There's a lot of relativism in this thread, including from the OP.

People should believe in true things and disbelieve in false things. If hell does not exist, then it is wrong to teach children that it does exist. If hell does exist, then it is wrong to teach children that it does not exist.

There may be compelling reasons to withhold knowledge of the existence of hell from very young children, but the reason provided in the OP is such a reason. If hell does exist, then the stronger belief induced by fear of hell is a positive characteristic rather than a negative one.

We shall leave out the moral implications of what amounts to threatening children, and instead look at the results. Does teaching about hell have any benefit in terms of moral actions? While we cannot say that every Christian was taught about hell, we cannot say that it was a small percentage. And…welp, look at that. Nothing.

I don't think the purpose of religious education is to promote obedience to laws.

[Rojava Free State]

We shall leave out the moral implications of what amounts to threatening children, and instead look at the results. Does teaching about hell have any benefit in terms of moral actions? While we cannot say that every Christian was taught about hell, we cannot say that it was a small percentage. And…welp, look at that. Nothing.

I don't think the purpose of religious education is to promote obedience to laws.

It's supposed to promote morality which heavily intersects with laws. Murder is both against the law and immoral. Robbery is against the law and immoral. Rape is against the law and immoral. Protesting kim jong un in North Korea is against the law but actually very moral.

[New haven america]

They should be taught that bad people go to hell, but God doesn't punish for being the wrong religion as long as you are a good person.

Uh no, being the wrong religion is a one way ticket to Hell as you're not loving or supporting him and you're not doing it in the exact way he wants.

[Telconi]

I don't think the purpose of religious education is to promote obedience to laws.

It's supposed to promote morality which heavily intersects with laws. Murder is both against the law and immoral. Robbery is against the law and immoral. Rape is against the law and immoral. Protesting kim jong un in North Korea is against the law but actually very moral.

Laws and morality sometimes intersect, but using legal obedience as a metric for morality is dubious at best. Sometimes people's morals dictate that they break certain laws, sometimes people's morals dictate that they assist others break said laws.

[New haven america]

I don't think the purpose of religious education is to promote obedience to laws.

It's supposed to promote morality which heavily intersects with laws. Murder is both against the law and immoral. Robbery is against the law and immoral. Rape is against the law and immoral. Protesting kim jong un in North Korea is against the law but actually very moral.

Actually, the only reason that rape is immoral in the Abrahamic religions is that it's lustful, and in order to make up for that the rapist needs to pay the father of the victim 30 silver and marry his rape victim against her will.

Notice that I'm using gendered language here, and that's because in the Abrahamic religions women can't rape, men can't be raped, and gay rape is either nonexistent or only considered sodomy.

[Rojava Free State]

It's supposed to promote morality which heavily intersects with laws. Murder is both against the law and immoral. Robbery is against the law and immoral. Rape is against the law and immoral. Protesting kim jong un in North Korea is against the law but actually very moral.

Actually, the only reason that rape is immoral in the Abrahamic religions is that it's lustful, and in order to make up for that the rapist needs to pay the father of the victim 30 silver and marry his rape victim against her will.

Notice that I'm using gendered language here, and that's because in the Abrahamic religions women can't rape, men can't be raped, and gay rape is either nonexistent or only considered sodomy.

True.Rape is both immoral and illegal though, regardless of what the bible says.

[Telconi]

It's supposed to promote morality which heavily intersects with laws. Murder is both against the law and immoral. Robbery is against the law and immoral. Rape is against the law and immoral. Protesting kim jong un in North Korea is against the law but actually very moral.

Actually, the only reason that rape is immoral in the Abrahamic religions is that it's lustful, and in order to make up for that the rapist needs to pay the father of the victim 30 silver and marry his rape victim against her will.

Notice that I'm using gendered language here, and that's because in the Abrahamic religions women can't rape, men can't be raped, and gay rape is either nonexistent or only considered sodomy.

I must have missed all of that from the actually qualified people. Huh...