Teaching children about hell

[Europa Undivided]

Let the parents decide.


Following legislation in Evil Dictators Happyland, parents who tell their children about the Tooth Fairy are sentenced to hard labor.

You misunderstand my point. I'm fine with fairy tales, I just don't like it when people frame their fairy tales as moral absolutes when, even in their native stories, they are not, and the children are expected to treat them as moral absolutes even long after they've rejected stories like the Tooth Fairy as exactly what they are - mere stories.

But now that I think about it, if there's an issue that allows you to ban teaching about the tooth fairy, I'd probably do exactly that...

Did the state just supersede the role of parents?

[Evil Dictators Happyland]

You misunderstand my point. I'm fine with fairy tales, I just don't like it when people frame their fairy tales as moral absolutes when, even in their native stories, they are not, and the children are expected to treat them as moral absolutes even long after they've rejected stories like the Tooth Fairy as exactly what they are - mere stories.

But now that I think about it, if there's an issue that allows you to ban teaching about the tooth fairy, I'd probably do exactly that...

Did the state just supersede the role of parents?

If you mean my actual point, then no. I don't think it should be illegal - such a law would be impossible to enforce anyway - but I don't like it as a concept and I think people should stop doing it.

If you mean the hypothetical issue, then yeah, it did a long time ago. At this point in EDH, the government is pretty much everything, even things that the government really shouldn't be

[The New California Republic]

You gave me the definition of a word I did not use. I did not say semite, I said antisemite. So you gave me fuck all as proof, and therefore you are arguing in bad faith yet again.

NCR, I'm not sure antisemitism and its definition falls quite within the scope of the thread [/notamod]

Of course it's only a brief sojourn in the antechambers of the thread.

[Europa Undivided]

Did the state just supersede the role of parents?

If you mean my actual point, then no. I don't think it should be illegal - such a law would be impossible to enforce anyway - but I don't like it as a concept and I think people should stop doing it.

If you mean the hypothetical issue, then yeah, it did a long time ago. At this point in EDH, the government is pretty much everything, even things that the government really shouldn't be

Well, it is a happyland for evil dictators.

[Fahran]

Thank you for repeating in detail essentially what I had just stated as a broad principle.

You're welcome. Hopefully, you reflect on it and don't follow the vein others have in insinuating that Christians are abusing their children without sufficient evidence.

Sorry, now I'm genuinely confused - I don't know where, or about what topic, I used the word "might." Perhaps this was directed at someone else?

It was more of a jab at the use of weasel words like "can", which you did use. You're making assertions without adequate evidence that trauma is present. I believe another poster shared a couple of articles and, at the moment, those provide a more compelling case for your side of the argument than "that teaching is abusive because it's intuitively so" or "this can result in that."

Aware though I am that the plural of "anecdote" is not "data" I have gleaned enough evidence to satisfy myself on this account. A quick Google search reveals many, many partisan accounts both for and against, as well as a very occasional article relating strong belief in hell to prior well-attested abuse (e.g. https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt1p5f2bw). Not a lot of actual scientific work has been done on this topic, specifically - only the nearly intuitive result that people who have been abused often truly believe in hell. That sort of thing plus experiences of my friends, family, and self, plus a fair amount of philosophical reading and contemplation makes me pretty confident making the allegation.

A book about child sexual abuse is opening an entirely different can of worms. You don't require a vivid depiction of Hell to abuse a child and, in this context, the abuse is the molestation and manipulation, not the emotional trauma imparted from a sermon that mentions Hell in passing.

Suffice to say I will never teach my children such a doctrine; I don't believe that most who profess it truly believe it; and while most likely won't convince any honest believers, perhaps I can sow the seeds of doubt a bit more widely.

Well, you're wrong. That said, I'm not going to teach my children about Hell either because Judaism doesn't have a concept akin to Hell, but I'm not going to leap onto a soap box and start insisting that Christians are somehow abusing their kids or are morally deficient either.

This sounds like a lofty principle until you realize that it denies the reality of many people's experiences simply because they haven't been quantified by the right sort of person. FWIW I don't think people who teach the existence of hell are doing so maliciously; but I don't see any indication that the notion they are in fact harming their charges is incorrect.

I thought you would be a stickler for empirical evidence. And, if you're making a positive claim, you ought to corroborate it with empirical evidence since your hypothesis in this case is testable. I mean... we're sorta touching on epistemological issues here as well. It's not just about not being an ass to other people. It's about adhering to a methodology for the attainment of knowledge.

Methods? OK, sure - and specific doctrines. It's one thing when an older sibling pranks you with "Muahahaha, the babadook's gonna get you!" and something else entirely when parents and preachers get in on the act as a moral instruction. Threats of violence are a crime when stated one adult to another; why are we OK with threatening children with torture after death? And what is the psychological difference between an atheist parent constantly saying that a child is bad, bad, bad and they deserve punishment, vs. a religious parent saying that a child is bad, bad, bad and they are going to burn in hell?

Christian parents aren't telling their children that they're going to burn in Hell most cases. In fact, I believe that would be heretical since only G-d knows such information. And, depending on your conception, Hell isn't a place of physical violence or even imposed torture. It's a state of chosen absolute separation from G-d and the anguish that accompanies such a decision. In short, it's akin to telling a child that they'll burn their hand if they put it over a stove.

So a stick is OK as long as you include a carrot with it? For purposes of moral instruction? That makes sense, we can't have children believing they could be eternally rewarded without the possibility of eternal punishment of not just boredom but total agony. Why, they might actually adopt the view that God loves them, and there's no telling what kind of egos they'd develop if that belief took root.

It's becoming abundantly clear to me that many in this thread have a fundamental misunderstanding about the specifics of Christian doctrine and dogma that reduce it down to a form of child-like hedonism.

AwareWhy not just cut out all the uncertainty and use electroshock therapy, and then everyone can be assured of going to heaven? Or is that too big and sharp of a stick? What is the appropriate degree of psychological tearing-down and denigration-by-angelic-proxy to best balance out the obnoxiousness that belief in heaven will cause in those horrible millennials and gen-z kids?

For someone who claims not to believe in hell, you sure are defending it tooth and nail.

I'm more so criticizing your wrong-headed assumptions about people I know to be decent and your encouragement of the degeneration of old traditions on the basis of an absurd ideological crusade against child abuse that you can't prove is child abuse by your own admission. You're not morally superior to parents who teach their children about Hell. They're not child abusers. And Christianity really isn't the weird hedonistic outlook you painted it as earlier.

[Evil Dictators Happyland]

If you mean my actual point, then no. I don't think it should be illegal - such a law would be impossible to enforce anyway - but I don't like it as a concept and I think people should stop doing it.

If you mean the hypothetical issue, then yeah, it did a long time ago. At this point in EDH, the government is pretty much everything, even things that the government really shouldn't be

Well, it is a happyland for evil dictators.

Just not the people being dictated to.
*hums vaguely Russian-sounding music, to the tune of This Is Probably Off Topic by The NS Mod Crew*

[Alvecia]

That ain’t clarifying matters any

That’s your problem, not mine, or ours.

*shrug*
I can’t make you defend your position

[Hurdergaryp]

Of course we should teach them. How will they learn how messed up Christianity and Islam are otherwise?

"So... Hmmm... Like... Sky Daddy created you, okay? But he also thinks you're kind of shitty. Why? You know this t-shirt you like? It's made with linen and cotton. Wearing it is a sin. I'm sorry darling, but you're going to hell. Sky Daddy is gonna torture you for eternity. Don't you think you deserved it?"

It is one of the many peculiarities of evolution that it eventually brought forth a bunch of primates into the world capable of abstract thought, and a bit too abstract as well. The concept of religion is only known to our species, but the institutions it brought forth can apparently only keep their followers loyal by means of fear and hate. The fact that religions need the idea of hell, a place of eternal torment and suffering, to make their god or gods look good in comparison pretty much is reason enough to raise ALL the red flags.

[Europa Undivided]

That’s your problem, not mine, or ours.

*shrug*
I can’t make you defend your position

I (we) already did. A billion times.

Not my fault if you are an amnesiac.

[Europa Undivided]

Of course we should teach them. How will they learn how messed up Christianity and Islam are otherwise?

"So... Hmmm... Like... Sky Daddy created you, okay? But he also thinks you're kind of shitty. Why? You know this t-shirt you like? It's made with linen and cotton. Wearing it is a sin. I'm sorry darling, but you're going to hell. Sky Daddy is gonna torture you for eternity. Don't you think you deserved it?"

Grossly heretical misinterpretation.

[NoAvailability]

Sure, so long as we explain to kids that it's an idea and not fact.

This guy has it. I'm not against children being taught religion, but it has to be taught as an idea and not as an indisputable fact.

[Alvecia]

*shrug*
I can’t make you defend your position

I (we) already did. A billion times.

Not my fault if you are an amnesiac.

I’ve seen neither hair nor hide if it here. Nor am I active in all threads at all times.

Shit, I haven’t even read every post in this thread

[Hammer Britannia]

Of course we should teach them. How will they learn how messed up Christianity and Islam are otherwise?

"So... Hmmm... Like... Sky Daddy created you, okay? But he also thinks you're kind of shitty. Why? You know this t-shirt you like? It's made with linen and cotton. Wearing it is a sin. I'm sorry darling, but you're going to hell. Sky Daddy is gonna torture you for eternity. Don't you think you deserved it?"

Grossly heretical misinterpretation.

One man's heretic is another man's faith.

To the Catholics, you're the heretic. To the Orthodox, you're the Heretic. To the Mormon's you're the Heretic. To the Muslims, You're the Heretic/Heathen.

It's a bit wrong to scream heresy when less than 7% of the protestants agree with your denomination or 0.72% of the global population.

[Europa Undivided]

Grossly heretical misinterpretation.

One man's heretic is another man's faith.

To the Catholics, you're the heretic. To the Orthodox, you're the Heretic. To the Mormon's you're the Heretic. To the Muslims, You're the Heretic/Heathen.

It's a bit wrong to scream heresy when less than 7% of the protestants agree with your denomination or 0.72% of the global population.

To everyone, the above statement by Risastor-whatshisname is heresy.

[United States of Americanas]

Yes, we should teach them that it doesn’t exist and is nothing to be worried about.

^^ this.

Sorry but religion has degraded from usefulness to a bunch of whacked out rich people getting richer off the tithe. *cough* IM LOOKING AT YOU JOEL OLSTEEN AND BILLY GRAHAM YOU MONEY SUCKING SCUMBAGS!

Also, in a country of greed, corruption, and guns, if hell is actually a thing then 99% of people on this planet will be going to hell.

Ever had an ID or drivers license, you’ve sinned against yourself by producing a graven image on plastic.

Ever turned on a TV, that too is a graven image viewing machine.

Taking selfies? Oh you better believe that’s sinful.

Using a computer to look at this website, well my oh my you’re viewing graven image of an eyeball in the upper left of the screen advertising the book Lexicon.

Thank God Jesus sealed the gates of hell shut forever. We are all saved by him.

If you’re gonna talk about hell then you damn better talk about Jesus or (insert your preferred deities name here) saving us all from it. Otherwise don’t bend children’s minds into paranoid religious fanatics, we have enough of those hacks.

[Hurdergaryp]

One man's heretic is another man's faith.

To the Catholics, you're the heretic. To the Orthodox, you're the Heretic. To the Mormon's you're the Heretic. To the Muslims, You're the Heretic/Heathen.

It's a bit wrong to scream heresy when less than 7% of the protestants agree with your denomination or 0.72% of the global population.

To everyone, the above statement by Risastor-whatshisname is heresy.

Can't we just agree to disagree? The last thing we need right now is more sectarian violence.

[Evil Dictators Happyland]

Of course we should teach them. How will they learn how messed up Christianity and Islam are otherwise?

"So... Hmmm... Like... Sky Daddy created you, okay? But he also thinks you're kind of shitty. Why? You know this t-shirt you like? It's made with linen and cotton. Wearing it is a sin. I'm sorry darling, but you're going to hell. Sky Daddy is gonna torture you for eternity. Don't you think you deserved it?"

Grossly heretical misinterpretation.

But not entirely inaccurate.

[Napkizemlja]

People choose to sin and do not repent. A corrupted soul cannot bear the presence of God's presence in death, hence why it is painful.

Ah so forgiveness isn't a thing after death. The eternal God only has a finite time to forgive you

Among Orthodox Christians, there are some of us who believe that God's grace and mercy can extend to those in Hell through the intercession of the prayers from the living and of saints. How hard it would be for that to be achieved is a mystery and may be correlated to the extension of corruption in the soul. There are also still those who preach universal reconciliation, albeit they tend to be liberal Protestants and I do not go so far as to believe that universal reconciliation is true.

[-Ocelot-]

Religions put great emphasis on teaching children when they are still very young, because they are still malleable and any information they absorb ends up rooted subconsciously into the brain. The children become adults who feel like their religion is "special" and undeniably true, but can't put their finger on why it feels like that way. It all stems from the education they've received as children. This is why every major religion insists on teaching people the "truth" while they are still young.

It's all about controlling people.

So no, nobody should be taught about any religion's worldview before the age of 18 or so.

[Hurdergaryp]

Grossly heretical misinterpretation.

But not entirely inaccurate.

Which is why it is heresy, for accuracy and religion are not friends.

[Napkizemlja]

People choose to sin and do not repent. A corrupted soul cannot bear the presence of God's presence in death, hence why it is painful.

What would define a corrupted soul however?

Someone who has sinned and who has not repented. All souls are technically corrupted for humans are sinful, but we strive to rid ourselves or sin and repent for our transgressions in an ever continuing journey towards purifying ourselves and living good and harmonious lives.

[The Free Joy State]

Religions put great emphasis on teaching children when they are still very young, because they are still malleable and any information they absorb ends up rooted subconsciously into the brain. The children become adults who feel like their religion is "special" and undeniably true, but can't put their finger on why it feels like that way. It all stems from the education they've received as children. This is why every major religion insists on teaching people the "truth" while they are still young.

It's all about controlling people.

So no, nobody should be taught about any religion's worldview before the age of 18 or so.

Technically, two religious parents have only a 50/50 chance of having a religious child, so it's not quite as direct as children absorbing what their parents tell them and believing.

I do disagree about no minor learning anything about any religion. That's why I like compulsory comparative religious studies in schools (major world religions in an environment that doesn't push one view as correct). There are people of various faiths in society; it's important that the religious and irreligious can understand and respect each others' perspectives and know how to have civil debates.

But I do agree that minors (or anyone) shouldn't be terrorised with the idea that one view is right and they'll be damned for digressing.

[Antityranicals]

Religions put great emphasis on teaching children when they are still very young, because they are still malleable and any information they absorb ends up rooted subconsciously into the brain. The children become adults who feel like their religion is "special" and undeniably true, but can't put their finger on why it feels like that way. It all stems from the education they've received as children. This is why every major religion insists on teaching people the "truth" while they are still young.

It's all about controlling people.

So no, nobody should be taught about any religion's worldview before the age of 18 or so.

Given how our entire society is geared towards subconsciously moving children the other way, I don't think that religion stands much of a chance winning the subliminal battle. The main reason why such a significant group of people are still religious is rather simple: there is a God, and anyone who has any proficiency in logic can see why this must be so.

[Hurdergaryp]

Religions put great emphasis on teaching children when they are still very young, because they are still malleable and any information they absorb ends up rooted subconsciously into the brain. The children become adults who feel like their religion is "special" and undeniably true, but can't put their finger on why it feels like that way. It all stems from the education they've received as children. This is why every major religion insists on teaching people the "truth" while they are still young.

It's all about controlling people.

So no, nobody should be taught about any religion's worldview before the age of 18 or so.

Given how our entire society is geared towards subconsciously moving children the other way, I don't think that religion stands much of a chance winning the subliminal battle. The main reason why such a significant group of people are still religious is rather simple: there is a God, and anyone who has any proficiency in logic can see why this must be so.

Your understanding of logic leaves a few things to be desired.

[-Ocelot-]

Religions put great emphasis on teaching children when they are still very young, because they are still malleable and any information they absorb ends up rooted subconsciously into the brain. The children become adults who feel like their religion is "special" and undeniably true, but can't put their finger on why it feels like that way. It all stems from the education they've received as children. This is why every major religion insists on teaching people the "truth" while they are still young.

It's all about controlling people.

So no, nobody should be taught about any religion's worldview before the age of 18 or so.

Given how our entire society is geared towards subconsciously moving children the other way, I don't think that religion stands much of a chance winning the subliminal battle. The main reason why such a significant group of people are still religious is rather simple: there is a God, and anyone who has any proficiency in logic can see why this must be so.

I can't think of a country that actively discourages children from receiving religious education, other than North Korea and maybe China. The other 99,5% of the world's countries either encourage children to be religious or do neither.