Degeneration of American Leftism?

[Nakena]

TERFism should be aggressively fought.

And SWERFism as well.

Agreed.

[New haven america]

And SWERFism as well.

Agreed.

I mean, it's gonna be pretty hard to fight ideologies that exist almost solely on the internet.

[Nakena]

Agreed.

I mean, it's gonna be pretty hard to fight ideologies that exist almost solely on the internet.

No. It's very real and its followers have influence in various euro countries.

[Communal concils]

Well, that OP pretty much lost me when it made mention of making "certain sacrifices" to homophobes and xenophobes.

Yeah, fuck that noise. The American Left is okay; it could do better, but it's sure as shit not degenerate because it acknowledges and focuses on social inequalities and economic inequalities at the same time.

"degeneration of american leftism"

What?

The OP pretty much hates social equality, so American Leftism is degenerate because it focuses on social stratification in addition to economic stratification.

As someone who politically leans left, I'm absolutely disgusted with many so called leftists in America. The left in 1905 was against corporate greed while many so called left wingers today will support nike, the people who use child labor to make shoes, cause they said nice things about Collin kapernick. They will talk about how great Obama was while glossing over how much war mongering Obama did, how his FBI intimidated and suppressed occupy wallstreet, how he received large donations from wall street and how he increased surveillance in america.

Today's left is just identity politics, the politics of "I'm oppressed, give me what I demand or else you're a bigot!" It isn't about helping people or fixing sociwty. It's about every self defined identity tribe getting their demands met, even if it is at the expense of other groups. It's absolutely toxic

The sheer amount of misrepresentation of the American left here is hilarious, not gonna lie.

So this is a big Strawmen!

[Communal concils]

I mean, it's gonna be pretty hard to fight ideologies that exist almost solely on the internet.

No. It's very real and its followers have influence in various euro countries.

Wow, the Moment I left this thread, it became a Eco-chamber. Why are these "SWERFS" Bad.

[Communal concils]

4. Left "Unity". I find this as a Big fat Lie! That is because I see most advocates of this as hypocrites. Just challenge their narrative of what is Left-wing. Perhaps be a twerf, and they will reject you because of that. Perhaps have socially conservative views, and they will reject you. Perhaps be a social-democrat, and the samething is happening. Left-Unity is a construct use to force groups to conform into a new doctrine, a limit of creativity. Go deep enough, and you will find flaws.

I'll respond to the other points later but for now I just want to say, you're goddamn right we reject TERFs (regardless of the rest of their ideology) and that exclusion is absolutely justified and necessary.

If I meet a leftist who says ''I believe in overthrowing the ruling class, abolishing capitalism, and the workers controlling the means of production... Also, I believe that black people are an inferior race who are biologically suited for subservience to more intelligent and productive races'', do you expect me to set that last thing aside? Should I say ''alright, let's work together on destroying capitalism, we'll sort out this disagreement later''? Hell no.

It's one thing for leftist factions to bicker over whether anarcho-communism or anarcho-syndicalism is the better ideology, disputes like that shouldn't disrupt leftist unity, but when it comes to TERFs, this is not a shallow difference, it is a matter of human rights.

TERFs do absolutely unforgivable shit. TERFs have bullied and harassed transgender children over what bathroom they can use. They have outed trans kids, which for some literally endangers their lives. You have a fucking kid maybe 14 struggling with gender dysphoria on top of all the shit one deals with at the age anyway and you have a TERF who will out this kid, put their name up all over the internet, and spout lies that the kid is a sexual predator threatening all the other kids by having access to a bathroom? That is what TERFs do, that is who TERFs are. They have even allied with fanatical Christian extremists against trans people having rights.

This is not a petty disagreement, this is peoples' lives on the line.

Good, so You admitted that Left-unity is a lie. anyways, that is a wonderful Grand-Narrative. I bet you shown only mention one situation or example of a "Mean scary TERF". Perhaps , you should show me these example, so I don't see this a attempt of appeal to emotions.

Honestly, I believe your relying on a stereotype.

[The Alma Mater]

I mean, it's gonna be pretty hard to fight ideologies that exist almost solely on the internet.

No. It's very real and its followers have influence in various euro countries.

Can you name one ?

[Communal concils]

No. It's very real and its followers have influence in various euro countries.

Can you name one ?

I feel like their talk of "SWERFs" is paranoid. It's as nonsense , Hysteria just like the Red scare.

[Yuyencia]

I am believe left Idea are incompatibility frequent left movement, idea create left movement successful effective are not idea insightful wisdom but idea left insightful wisdom are ineffective rally movement.

[Communal concils]

I am believe left Idea are incompatibility frequent left movement, idea create left movement successful effective are not idea insightful wisdom but idea left insightful wisdom are ineffective rally movement.

So your saying that the most effective Leftist are not the least idealist ones, if not then what is your point. I'm interested.

[Yuyencia]

I am believe left Idea are incompatibility frequent left movement, idea create left movement successful effective are not idea insightful wisdom but idea left insightful wisdom are ineffective rally movement.

So your saying that the most effective Leftist are not the least idealist ones, if not then what is your point. I'm interested.

idealist are imprecise describe, leftist effective are ambition and tactic in mind, are focus undermine structure and attract mans with promise reward status, but idea ability attract support take effect are not deep and long run self destructive frequent.

[Communal concils]

So your saying that the most effective Leftist are not the least idealist ones, if not then what is your point. I'm interested.

idealist are imprecise describe, leftist effective are ambition and tactic in mind, are focus undermine structure and attract mans with promise reward status, but idea ability attract support take effect are not deep and long run self destructive frequent.

well, that's very interesting. what are your thoughts on my criticism of left-wing groups, I consider myself a leftist but I see that their is a wither away of realism in the movement.

[Heloin]

No. It's very real and its followers have influence in various euro countries.

Wow, the Moment I left this thread, it became a Eco-chamber.

That's an interesting way to immediately try and discredit people who disagree with you.

Why are these "SWERFS" Bad.

The same reasons TERFs are bad but then again I don't think you care about these kind of issues with your repeated belittling of lgbt issues in the past.

idealist are imprecise describe, leftist effective are ambition and tactic in mind, are focus undermine structure and attract mans with promise reward status, but idea ability attract support take effect are not deep and long run self destructive frequent.

well, that's very interesting. what are your thoughts on my criticism of left-wing groups, I consider myself a leftist but I see that their is a wither away of realism in the movement.

You're still not a leftist CC.

[Communal concils]

Wow, the Moment I left this thread, it became a Eco-chamber.

That's an interesting way to immediately try and discredit people who disagree with you.

Why are these "SWERFS" Bad.

The same reasons TERFs are bad but then again I don't think you care about these kind of issues with your repeated belittling of lgbt issues in the past.

well, that's very interesting. what are your thoughts on my criticism of left-wing groups, I consider myself a leftist but I see that their is a wither away of realism in the movement.

You're still not a leftist CC.

1. Okay, why would I care. criticism is criticism. You did the same thing to me, and I didn't get to complain about "Fairness".

2. Please explain.


3. Please explain, I see the Left - Right spectrum as limited. Politics are more complex than your own perceptions. I might as well say that CNT-FAI were not leftist, because they persecuted a demographic( Catholics).

[Chestaan]

On the whole relishing a violent bloody end to the bourgeoisie I think it really comes from a place of legitimate anger. And let's not forget that the world billionaires are horrible horrible people. They could end poverty with ease if they chose to do so and yet they rather sit on large piles of cash. It's really hard to hear about someone like Bezos and the horrible way he treats his workers without getting incredibly angry.

Also, you complain about the lack of left unity and how there is so much infighting among socialists and yet at the same time you use your sig to say that Trotskyism and Left Communism aren't really socialist enough.

But in any case, yes the American left has degenerated and the problem is that it has drifted sharply from the aims of Marxism. The focus on the working class has been buried and those calling themselves socialists instead preoccupy themselves with campaigns to get small reforms from the bourgeoisie state. Of course the state loves hat the focus has moved from economic issues and the working class to social issues because it doesn't cause the elites as much harm to grant social reforms. I'm not saying the left shouldn't support LGBTQIA+ individuals and minorities etc. But it really needs to be hammered home that these divisions and oppression of marginalised groups exists because it distracts from economic issues and benefits the bourgeoisie.

[Totenborg]

4. Left "Unity". I find this as a Big fat Lie! That is because I see most advocates of this as hypocrites. Just challenge their narrative of what is Left-wing. Perhaps be a twerf, and they will reject you because of that. Perhaps have socially conservative views, and they will reject you. Perhaps be a social-democrat, and the samething is happening. Left-Unity is a construct use to force groups to conform into a new doctrine, a limit of creativity. Go deep enough, and you will find flaws.

Why should I support people with "socially conservative views"? Those people want to restrict my legal rights and reinforce and strengthen the attitudes and social structures that have caused so much pain and suffering.

And a socially conservative socialism would do next to nothing to help Indigenous peoples, it would just maintain existing colonialist structures and oppression.

Of course I'm going to reject social conservatives. There's nothing ""woke"" or enlightened about disregarding and casting out minorities.

Damn right.

[Chestaan]

I agree that TERFs and SWERFs are bad but often the people who decry them as non-leftists are happy to work alongside capitalists who have socially liberal views on campaigns for gay marriage and such.

Why is that the case? How are TERFs and SWERFs a redline but supporting capitalism isn't?

[Communal concils]

On the whole relishing a violent bloody end to the bourgeoisie I think it really comes from a place of legitimate anger. And let's not forget that the world billionaires are horrible horrible people. They could end poverty with ease if they chose to do so and yet they rather sit on large piles of cash. It's really hard to hear about someone like Bezos and the horrible way he treats his workers without getting incredibly angry.

Also, you complain about the lack of left unity and how there is so much infighting among socialists and yet at the same time you use your sig to say that Trotskyism and Left Communism aren't really socialist enough.

But in any case, yes the American left has degenerated and the problem is that it has drifted sharply from the aims of Marxism. The focus on the working class has been buried and those calling themselves socialists instead preoccupy themselves with campaigns to get small reforms from the bourgeoisie state. Of course the state loves hat the focus has moved from economic issues and the working class to social issues because it doesn't cause the elites as much harm to grant social reforms. I'm not saying the left shouldn't support LGBTQIA+ individuals and minorities etc. But it really needs to be hammered home that these divisions and oppression of marginalised groups exists because it distracts from economic issues and benefits the bourgeoisie.

1. Though, they value this violence too much. as far as I'm concern, most of these people have anger issues. It might be that they are larping or have a person hatred of their boss. Either way, I'm not saying a person should not be angry, but they must realize that one action( smashing the enemy) is not how problems are solve. You need to find new ways of d4ealing with political issues, and violence is just one of many. still , it is best if one does not go into a rage of barbarism.

2. You misunderstand my entire point. I was saying that people that call for Left-unity are hypocrites. That is all, they betray that concept once they see an ideologue that contradicts what they see as left-wing. A true anti-sectarian would actually want everyone to cooperate, no matter of alien they are to their own beliefs

3. Based and Commie-pilled.

[LiberNovusAmericae]

Intersectionality's oppression Olympics is one of modern leftism's problems. In addition, apologetics for dictatorships is another problem that many leftists have. Tankies are the worst.

[The New California Republic]

Romanticism of Historical Movements. Leftist( I'm talking of the socialist variety) , have an idealize version of historical movements. It does not Matter if it's the Soviet Union, Maoist china or CNT-FAI controlled Spain, there is an exaggeration of the greatest of these societies. These people Fetishize the past, their ideology is still base on rivalries that ended a long time ago( Trotskyites vs Maoist, Left-coms and everything else).
They want to depend on old revolutionary ideals and do larping with the terminology, aesthetics and Organizational styles of Old ideologies.

tl;dr version: "The left are all tankies!"

Lol. No. They are not.

I still find it weird that Marxism has a monopoly on all that is considered far-left.

It doesn't though, and hasn't since the mid to late 20th century.

[The New California Republic]

Wow, the Moment I left this thread, it became a Eco-chamber.

...a what.

[Communal concils]

I agree that TERFs and SWERFs are bad but often the people who decry them as non-leftists are happy to work alongside capitalists who have socially liberal views on campaigns for gay marriage and such.

Why is that the case? How are TERFs and SWERFs a redline but supporting capitalism isn't?

I never understand how left-wing social liberals value democrats and other corporate groups over those that challenge their social values. Perhaps, it's a case of Narcissism.

Another thing I don't get how can one be against Markets yet call everyone that believes in the abolition of Monetary relationships "SWERF" .

I believe that a money less society can't have prostitution due to the society destroying markets as a system. I don't get how free relationships are not liberating?

[Nakena]

No. It's very real and its followers have influence in various euro countries.

Can you name one ?

Only because its you:

The current danish prime minister to begin with and a number of other activists and MP in various Euro legislation are anti-sex worker feminists.

Frederiksen is a vocal opponent of prostitution. For many years, she has strongly advocated the prohibition of the purchase of sex as in Iceland, Norway and Sweden.[17] In 2002, she opened the debate on the prohibition of prostitution and was behind the 2009 congressional decision that the Social Democrats would "work for a ban on the purchase of sexual services"

[LiberNovusAmericae]

I agree that TERFs and SWERFs are bad but often the people who decry them as non-leftists are happy to work alongside capitalists who have socially liberal views on campaigns for gay marriage and such.

Why is that the case? How are TERFs and SWERFs a redline but supporting capitalism isn't?

I never understand how left-wing social liberals value democrats and other corporate groups over those that challenge their social values. Perhaps, it's a case of Narcissism.

Another thing I don't get how can one be against Markets yet call everyone that believes in the abolition of Monetary relationships "SWERF" .

I believe that a money less society can't have prostitution due to the society destroying markets as a system. I don't get how free relationships are not liberating?

Sex worker exclusionary radical feminism has nothing to do with abolishing markets. They just hate sex workers.

[Communal concils]

Intersectionality's oppression Olympics is one of modern leftism's problems. In addition, apologetics for dictatorships is another problem that many leftists have. Tankies are the worst.

I am against Intersectionality, But I'll happily declare myself an SJW. I find no problem pointing out things that one sees as oppressive.

also, I don't see all dictatorships as bad. You are blinded by a type of slave morality, You assume all dictators are bad because you only know a few examples.