Degeneration of American Leftism?

[Grand Proudhonia]

4. Left "Unity". I find this as a Big fat Lie! That is because I see most advocates of this as hypocrites. Just challenge their narrative of what is Left-wing. Perhaps be a twerf, and they will reject you because of that. Perhaps have socially conservative views, and they will reject you. Perhaps be a social-democrat, and the samething is happening. Left-Unity is a construct use to force groups to conform into a new doctrine, a limit of creativity. Go deep enough, and you will find flaws.

No it isn't. I'm a Social Democrat, and I've never had a problem with being rejected by the rest of the Left.

Let me be the first

A. You are not a Left Winger
B. That is because Social Democracy is little more than capitalism with a large welfare state
C. I reject you in general for supporting state authority over man
D. I reject you in general for supporting the "saving grace of capitalism" known as welfare

[Nakena]

Depends what you define as leftists.

No, no it doesn't. Ignore the shitty situation of the American Overton window; Liberals are not Leftists by any international metric.

I am not sure to what you referencing here, what publications, outlets, blogs or subreddits etc.

It doesn't particularly matter which Leftist community I'm referring to, online or otherwise; you're going to be hard-pressed to high-hell to find any Leftist (again, not Liberals, but actual Leftists) who supports corporations or Neoliberals.

Again, if you referencing to some far-left groups or actual communist/socialist/anarchist groups inside the US or on obscure subreddits (and i am giving you here the benefit of the doubt you dont include tankies or leftypol memers here) you're probably on spot. But they're just that. Obscure.

As said before, the music is being played by others and most dance to their tunes. Including Antifa etc.

[Torrocca]

No, no it doesn't. Ignore the shitty situation of the American Overton window; Liberals are not Leftists by any international metric.



It doesn't particularly matter which Leftist community I'm referring to, online or otherwise; you're going to be hard-pressed to high-hell to find any Leftist (again, not Liberals, but actual Leftists) who supports corporations or Neoliberals.

Again, if you referencing to some far-left groups or actual communist/socialist/anarchist groups inside the US or on obscure subreddits (and i am giving you here the benefit of the doubt you dont include tankies or leftypol memers here) you're probably on spot. But they're just that. Obscure.

As said before, the music is being played by others and most dance to their tunes. Including Antifa etc.

No, I'm talking about the left in general. Liberals aren't Leftists; whatever song and dance they play is irrelevant.

[Technoscience Leftwing]

* I live in Russia, and therefore I can evaluate the American left movement only from the outside. But the fact that in the USA there were no attempts at a communist revolution, the communists and socialists were very weak, and moderate in demands. Trotsky was ironic that the "socialism of successful dentists" was popular in the United States. That is, the rich middle class of a rich country has completely different problems than the poor workers from poor, backward countries. Hence the exaggerated attention of the American left to not-primary issues, such as LGBT rights, the elimination of the language of insulting names of blacks and people with disabilities, etc. - although it is paramount for the left to provide all people with food, housing, literacy, access to comfort and self-government.
* Romanticism of historical movements? But the historical movements of the past really fought in conditions of great danger, repression, made great efforts, initiated great changes (the overthrow of the monarchy in France, the modernization of the USSR and China), and therefore probably deserved a romantic halo.
* About violence. In your USA, the president never gave an order to shoot the Congress building from tank guns. And here in Russia in 1993, President Yeltsin gave such an order with respect to the Supreme Council. Therefore, the importance of violence in politics can be clearer to us more sharply than to American comrades.
* About Marxism. Of course, Marxism has no monopoly. This doctrine arose in the 19th century, and its authors are limited to representations of their era. In that era, national liberation movements were progressive, the role of manual labor was high, there was great class cohesion, a high birth rate was considered a sign of rapid development, etc. Now nationalism in all forms has exhausted itself and has become reactionary, the problem of overpopulation has arisen, the possibility of replacing manual labor with automation has arisen, the urban industrial lifestyle has destroyed class and community solidarity, new communication and transport technologies have appeared, the possibility of exploring space resources, other phenomena have emerged that are Marxism in his era could not take into account. So, the left theory must be developed. Keeping the main task: to give all people comfort on the basis of technological progress.

[Kaystein]

Well, that OP pretty much lost me when it made mention of making "certain sacrifices" to homophobes and xenophobes.

Yeah, fuck that noise. The American Left is okay; it could do better, but it's sure as shit not degenerate because it acknowledges and focuses on social inequalities and economic inequalities at the same time.

"degeneration of american leftism"

What?

The OP pretty much hates social equality, so American Leftism is degenerate because it focuses on social stratification in addition to economic stratification.

Oh I wasn't attacking the OP, and you don't get to use me to prove your point. No, I don't support you. Shoo. Go use somebody else.

Op, there's other things to talk about. Homelessness, the climate crisis, hunger, war, poverty. Literally any tangible, immediate threat to human life on planet earth. Why are you wasting time talking about this, and why are you making me write this out? Go volunteer to help feed ppl or something. Get off NS. This stuff doesn't exist. It's all in your head, it's in other people's heads. It's your emotions, it's your ego and that stuff is useless. Go take deep breathes. Count to ten. Calm yourself down, and get off this game if you care about life.

Fuck this thing called politics. It's not important. Spend your energy on something else.

[Heloin]

Well, that OP pretty much lost me when it made mention of making "certain sacrifices" to homophobes and xenophobes.

Yeah, fuck that noise. The American Left is okay; it could do better, but it's sure as shit not degenerate because it acknowledges and focuses on social inequalities and economic inequalities at the same time.



The OP pretty much hates social equality, so American Leftism is degenerate because it focuses on social stratification in addition to economic stratification.

Oh I wasn't attacking the OP, and you don't get to use me to prove your point. No, I don't support you. Shoo. Go use somebody else.

Op, there's other things to talk about. Homelessness, the climate crisis, hunger, war, poverty. Literally any tangible, immediate threat to human life on planet earth. Why are you wasting time talking about this, and why are you making me write this out? Go volunteer to help feed ppl or something. Get off NS. This stuff doesn't exist. It's all in your head, it's in other people's heads. It's your emotions, it's your ego and that stuff is useless. Go take deep breathes. Count to ten. Calm yourself down, and get off this game if you care about life.

Fuck this thing called politics. It's not important. Spend your energy on something else.

What are you doing here then?

[Torrocca]

Well, that OP pretty much lost me when it made mention of making "certain sacrifices" to homophobes and xenophobes.

Yeah, fuck that noise. The American Left is okay; it could do better, but it's sure as shit not degenerate because it acknowledges and focuses on social inequalities and economic inequalities at the same time.



The OP pretty much hates social equality, so American Leftism is degenerate because it focuses on social stratification in addition to economic stratification.

Oh I wasn't attacking the OP, and you don't get to use me to prove your point. No, I don't support you. Shoo. Go use somebody else.

Luckily, I don't need your permission on an open internet forum to quote you.

Op, there's other things to talk about. Homelessness, the climate crisis, hunger, war, poverty. Literally any tangible, immediate threat to human life on planet earth. Why are you wasting time talking about this, and why are you making me write this out? Go volunteer to help feed ppl or something. Get off NS. This stuff doesn't exist. It's all in your head, it's in other people's heads. It's your emotions, it's your ego and that stuff is useless. Go take deep breathes. Count to ten. Calm yourself down, and get off this game if you care about life.

Fuck this thing called politics. It's not important. Spend your energy on something else.

Literally all those things you're talking about necessitate political action to be fixed. You're not gonna accomplish anything regarding these systemic issues if you yell about them online and, in the same breath, say "politics bad!".

[Nakena]

Oh I wasn't attacking the OP, and you don't get to use me to prove your point. No, I don't support you. Shoo. Go use somebody else.

Op, there's other things to talk about. Homelessness, the climate crisis, hunger, war, poverty. Literally any tangible, immediate threat to human life on planet earth. Why are you wasting time talking about this, and why are you making me write this out? Go volunteer to help feed ppl or something. Get off NS. This stuff doesn't exist. It's all in your head, it's in other people's heads. It's your emotions, it's your ego and that stuff is useless. Go take deep breathes. Count to ten. Calm yourself down, and get off this game if you care about life.

Fuck this thing called politics. It's not important. Spend your energy on something else.

It seems like you had a few encounters already.

[Dangine]

Again, if you referencing to some far-left groups or actual communist/socialist/anarchist groups inside the US or on obscure subreddits (and i am giving you here the benefit of the doubt you dont include tankies or leftypol memers here) you're probably on spot. But they're just that. Obscure.

As said before, the music is being played by others and most dance to their tunes. Including Antifa etc.

No, I'm talking about the left in general. Liberals aren't Leftists; whatever song and dance they play is irrelevant.

When you say liberals are you referring to classical liberals or social liberals?

No it isn't. I'm a Social Democrat, and I've never had a problem with being rejected by the rest of the Left.

Let me be the first

A. You are not a Left Winger

Social Democracy is by definition left wing.

[Torrocca]

No, I'm talking about the left in general. Liberals aren't Leftists; whatever song and dance they play is irrelevant.

When you say liberals are you referring to classical liberals or social liberals?

Both, but primarily Social Liberals in the case of those who venerate Obama's presidency or a corporation like Nike. Neither of them are Leftist.

[Heloin]

No, I'm talking about the left in general. Liberals aren't Leftists; whatever song and dance they play is irrelevant.

When you say liberals are you referring to classical liberals or social liberals?

Liberals aren't leftists.

[Drongonia]

Personally I don't think the left has necessarily degraded or become much different on the whole.

The issue as I see it as that the mainstream left-liberal establishments in business, media and politics are allowing the more fringe far-left groups and ideas into the mainstream. Stuff like Maxine Waters endorsing the antifa and saying people should basically harass republicans and right-wing types doesn't make the mainstream left look good, let alone the Democratic Party.

[Kaystein]

Oh I wasn't attacking the OP, and you don't get to use me to prove your point. No, I don't support you. Shoo. Go use somebody else.

Luckily, I don't need your permission on an open internet forum to quote you.

Op, there's other things to talk about. Homelessness, the climate crisis, hunger, war, poverty. Literally any tangible, immediate threat to human life on planet earth. Why are you wasting time talking about this, and why are you making me write this out? Go volunteer to help feed ppl or something. Get off NS. This stuff doesn't exist. It's all in your head, it's in other people's heads. It's your emotions, it's your ego and that stuff is useless. Go take deep breathes. Count to ten. Calm yourself down, and get off this game if you care about life.

Fuck this thing called politics. It's not important. Spend your energy on something else.

Literally all those things you're talking about necessitate political action to be fixed. You're not gonna accomplish anything regarding these systemic issues if you yell about them online and, in the same breath, say "politics bad!".

Reality doesn't care about this or that. It simply is. We will die off, as will everybody we know and love, and our species, and life on this planet unless we affect reality itself enough to change before that comes to pass. I'm akin to a homeless bum in this timeline, so I have no power to my name. You do, the burden is on you and everybody else. Do something that's going to work and i'll follow. I'm telling you now, drop this politics BS. It's useless.

[Torrocca]

Luckily, I don't need your permission on an open internet forum to quote you.



Literally all those things you're talking about necessitate political action to be fixed. You're not gonna accomplish anything regarding these systemic issues if you yell about them online and, in the same breath, say "politics bad!".

Reality doesn't care about this or that. It simply is. We will die off, as will everybody we know and love, and our species, and life on this planet unless we affect reality itself enough to change before that comes to pass. I'm akin to a homeless bum in this timeline, so I have no power to my name. You do, the burden is on you and everybody else. Do something that's going to work and i'll follow. I'm telling you now, drop this politics BS. It's useless.

Neat. Well, while you completely reject the thing that makes mass-change for the better viable, I'm gonna focus on it.

[Heloin]

Reality doesn't care about this or that. It simply is. We will die off, as will everybody we know and love, and our species, and life on this planet unless we affect reality itself enough to change before that comes to pass. I'm akin to a homeless bum in this timeline, so I have no power to my name. You do, the burden is on you and everybody else. Do something that's going to work and i'll follow. I'm telling you now, drop this politics BS. It's useless.

Edgy.

[Nakena]

Reality doesn't care about this or that. It simply is. We will die off, as will everybody we know and love, and our species, and life on this planet unless we affect reality itself enough to change before that comes to pass. I'm akin to a homeless bum in this timeline, so I have no power to my name. You do, the burden is on you and everybody else. Do something that's going to work and i'll follow. I'm telling you now, drop this politics BS. It's useless.

Neat. Well, while you completely reject the thing that makes mass-change for the better viable, I'm gonna focus on it.

He has a point. Remember what I told you the other day? This fits into that.

[Kaystein]

Reality doesn't care about this or that. It simply is. We will die off, as will everybody we know and love, and our species, and life on this planet unless we affect reality itself enough to change before that comes to pass. I'm akin to a homeless bum in this timeline, so I have no power to my name. You do, the burden is on you and everybody else. Do something that's going to work and i'll follow. I'm telling you now, drop this politics BS. It's useless.

Neat. Well, while you completely reject the thing that makes mass-change for the better viable, I'm gonna focus on it.

It's insanity. Humanity has tried doing that for millennium, and we've fail catastrophically to the point we've had civilizations collapse. I'm telling you what's real. Your talking about made-up things is useless. Look, to make it simple why not focus on reorganizing your region's logistical networks to be flexible enough to survive future disasters? Ensure food gets places, ensure food can grow, basic needs are met. Humanity outlived some global disasters because a few hundred of us managed to survive in one area. You don't have to effect the globe. Just ensure your area can survive the overwhelming forces.

[Satans Angel]

Luckily, I don't need your permission on an open internet forum to quote you.



Literally all those things you're talking about necessitate political action to be fixed. You're not gonna accomplish anything regarding these systemic issues if you yell about them online and, in the same breath, say "politics bad!".

Reality doesn't care about this or that. It simply is. We will die off, as will everybody we know and love, and our species, and life on this planet unless we affect reality itself enough to change before that comes to pass. I'm akin to a homeless bum in this timeline, so I have no power to my name. You do, the burden is on you and everybody else. Do something that's going to work and i'll follow. I'm telling you now, drop this politics BS. It's useless.

Politics is the cause of divisions and wars. I never could put blind faith in an ideology or philosophy like a religion. I only put faith in my own that I made.

[Blargoblarg]

Are liberals not to the left of center? I define many as being thousands or millions of people. You are arguing with me over what's considered "many," insinuating that i said most leftists supported Obama when I didn't because I'm a leftist. I know what leftism is truly about, I'm just saying many so called leftists support this shit.

Liberals are centrists. America is so right wing that the centre looks left.

This, 100 percent. Other countries have actual socialist parties that get elected into the majority in their governments sometimes. Here in the U.S. we have a far-right party and a center to center-right party as the two major political parties. I'm just glad there are a few politicians in the U.S. working to shift the Democrats to the left.

[Molonia]

Neat. Well, while you completely reject the thing that makes mass-change for the better viable, I'm gonna focus on it.

It's insanity. Humanity has tried doing that for millennium, and we've fail catastrophically to the point we've had civilizations collapse. I'm telling you what's real. Your talking about made-up things is useless. Look, to make it simple why not focus on reorganizing your region's logistical networks to be flexible enough to survive future disasters? Ensure food gets places, ensure food can grow, basic needs are met. Humanity outlived some global disasters because a few hundred of us managed to survive in one area. You don't have to effect the globe. Just ensure your area can survive the overwhelming forces.

What a brilliant strategy. 'Increase' our chances of survival by segregating ourselves into 'areas' instead of coming together as one and therefore having more manpower.

[The Alma Mater]

Are liberals not to the left of center? I define many as being thousands or millions of people. You are arguing with me over what's considered "many," insinuating that i said most leftists supported Obama when I didn't because I'm a leftist. I know what leftism is truly about, I'm just saying many so called leftists support this shit.

Liberals are centrists. America is so right wing that the centre looks left.

Actually, in most countries liberals are considered right wing. In the Netherlands for instance the liberal party (VVD) is the main rightwing party.

[The Holy Therns]

6. I still find it weird that Marxism has a monopoly on all that is considered far-left. I am still a Marxist, but we need to challenge traditional Marxism. we need to break orthodoxy and make heterodoxy. It's best if we create new ideologies. Creativity should be formed, and there would be no need for 20th century concerns. 21st century socialism must be created instead.

But... it doesn't. It's barely followed by the modern left. And modern socialism has largely extricated itself from Marx.

This is like posting, "we need to create an interconnected network of computers, that people can play nation simulator games on."

Whoa, whoa, you're on to something here.

[Page]

4. Left "Unity". I find this as a Big fat Lie! That is because I see most advocates of this as hypocrites. Just challenge their narrative of what is Left-wing. Perhaps be a twerf, and they will reject you because of that. Perhaps have socially conservative views, and they will reject you. Perhaps be a social-democrat, and the samething is happening. Left-Unity is a construct use to force groups to conform into a new doctrine, a limit of creativity. Go deep enough, and you will find flaws.

I'll respond to the other points later but for now I just want to say, you're goddamn right we reject TERFs (regardless of the rest of their ideology) and that exclusion is absolutely justified and necessary.

If I meet a leftist who says ''I believe in overthrowing the ruling class, abolishing capitalism, and the workers controlling the means of production... Also, I believe that black people are an inferior race who are biologically suited for subservience to more intelligent and productive races'', do you expect me to set that last thing aside? Should I say ''alright, let's work together on destroying capitalism, we'll sort out this disagreement later''? Hell no.

It's one thing for leftist factions to bicker over whether anarcho-communism or anarcho-syndicalism is the better ideology, disputes like that shouldn't disrupt leftist unity, but when it comes to TERFs, this is not a shallow difference, it is a matter of human rights.

TERFs do absolutely unforgivable shit. TERFs have bullied and harassed transgender children over what bathroom they can use. They have outed trans kids, which for some literally endangers their lives. You have a fucking kid maybe 14 struggling with gender dysphoria on top of all the shit one deals with at the age anyway and you have a TERF who will out this kid, put their name up all over the internet, and spout lies that the kid is a sexual predator threatening all the other kids by having access to a bathroom? That is what TERFs do, that is who TERFs are. They have even allied with fanatical Christian extremists against trans people having rights.

This is not a petty disagreement, this is peoples' lives on the line.

[Nakena]

TERFism should be aggressively fought.

[The Greater Ohio Valley]

TERFism should be aggressively fought.

And SWERFism as well.