NATION

PASSWORD

Evidence Based Policy

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

You have the power to make Trump listen to one mainstream academic, which field do you choose?

economics
5
10%
climate science
31
65%
statistics
2
4%
philosophy
1
2%
history
2
4%
international relations
1
2%
other
1
2%
mainstream academics are wrong
3
6%
mainstream academics are right but if he listens to one he'll win in 2020
2
4%
 
Total votes : 48

User avatar
Forsher
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 22041
Founded: Jan 30, 2012
New York Times Democracy

Evidence Based Policy

Postby Forsher » Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:44 am

You've probably heard of evidence based policy. It's very in vogue these days with politicians... especially ones on the right. (Well, maybe not in America.) What you might not know is that academic policy analysts and senior technical advisers aren't fans of the phrase. To their view evidence based policy is a redundant expression: policy is always about evidence. Which rather begs the question of what policy is.

Policy is a slightly difficult term to nail down. Often we think of party manifestos as policies (elections should be about policy not personality) whereas we can quite reasonably say that policy is what governments do. I would suggest that policy is any conceivable intersection of politics with practical implementation, whether or not it's something "X wants to do" or "X is doing". Obviously the major concern is always going to be whether or not a policy should be done (is it broken?) and also whether or not it'll work (will it fix it?). A policy will answer both of those. The former is politics with evidence, the latter is a predictive exercise. The problem that I want to talk about is that most people don't know how to work with evidence. (Which therefore allows "evidence based policy" to masquerade as a statement which has meaning.)

Take, for example, the gender pay gap. This is a very commonly cited "problem". The political reasoning is that equal work should get equal pay. The thing is that this is usually measured in terms of average (or median) hourly earnings of men minus the same for women. That makes a lot of sense, right? Er, no. Not at all.

Anyone who's ever heard of regression will know that a regression model is the way to approach this exercise. But a regression model does not give a nice soundbite. And because most people don't know what regression is, no-one who wants to get anywhere is going to try and use a regression model. One, it takes longer to explain. Two, the populace are happy with the crude measure above.

The consequences of this are disastrous because it means the political reasoning we used to justify looking for a problem isn't relevant to our evidence. Hence we're not going to fix that. Even worse, this creates the wage gap myth myth because there are people who know (a) we haven't measured the wage gap but who then use that to, falsely, argue (b) therefore there's nothing broken.

So... what to do about this? Well, the answer is obvious... teach regression in schools... the concept, not the maths, anyway. But in a more general sense, the problem is that people are far too willing to accept movement from (a) to (b) as above. The reason being that people have very loose ideas about what burdens are.

There are people on NSG, for example, who think the burdens of arguments are subjective properties. They're not. If you're making a particular claim, it implies a particular burden. It might not be... probably is not... possible to objectively determine whether or not the burden of the claim is met by the evidence but the burden does have an objective existence conditional on the claim's existing. If we could get people to think more in terms of "if I'm saying X what do I require to be true" and "you're saying Y, therefore you need Z to be true" we'd be in a much better place. I suggest reframing subjects like English and Science to make this a more explicit part of what's going on.

So, what say ye, NSG? Are politicians able to get away with selling their party's positions as "evidence based policy" because their citizens are pretty poorly placed to evaluate policies? Could relatively minor changes to education have outsized impacts on the quality of policy debate?
That it Could be What it Is, Is What it Is

Stop making shit up, though. Links, or it's a God-damn lie and you know it.

The normie life is heteronormie

We won't know until 2053 when it'll be really obvious what he should've done. [...] We have no option but to guess.

User avatar
Phoenicaea
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1968
Founded: May 24, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Phoenicaea » Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:06 am

will get the crest of mainstream, and say climate. no, i trust evidence based medicine alone.

User avatar
Rojava Free State
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 19428
Founded: Feb 06, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Rojava Free State » Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:48 am

"We believe truth over facts" -Joe Biden

Can't tell if he's someone who would or wouldn't accept evidence based policy based on that statement
Rojava Free State wrote:Listen yall. I'm only gonna say it once but I want you to remember it. This ain't a world fit for good men. It seems like you gotta be monstrous just to make it. Gotta have a little bit of darkness within you just to survive. You gotta stoop low everyday it seems like. Stoop all the way down to the devil in these times. And then one day you look in the mirror and you realize that you ain't you anymore. You're just another monster, and thanks to your actions, someone else will eventually become as warped and twisted as you. Never forget that the best of us are just the best of a bad lot. Being at the top of a pile of feces doesn't make you anything but shit like the rest. Never forget that.

User avatar
Forsher
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 22041
Founded: Jan 30, 2012
New York Times Democracy

Postby Forsher » Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:41 pm

Rojava Free State wrote:"We believe truth over facts" -Joe Biden

Can't tell if he's someone who would or wouldn't accept evidence based policy based on that statement


Facts are trivial.

To take that gender pay gap example. Those statistics that are quoted aren't made up. They're real. It's just that one can choose alternative facts that lead to a different conclusion. It's also a fact that the differing rates of male/female employment in higher/lower paid roles explains those statistics. If you point out that these are not the same jobs ("equal work") then you're still dealing in facts... but for the reasons explained in the OP aren't talking about truth either.
That it Could be What it Is, Is What it Is

Stop making shit up, though. Links, or it's a God-damn lie and you know it.

The normie life is heteronormie

We won't know until 2053 when it'll be really obvious what he should've done. [...] We have no option but to guess.

User avatar
US-SSR
Minister
 
Posts: 2313
Founded: Aug 02, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby US-SSR » Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:59 pm

Psychology, in order to convince him to resign.
8:46

We're not going to control the pandemic!

It is a slaughter and not just a political dispute.

"The scraps of narcissism, the rotten remnants of conspiracy theories, the offal of sour grievance, the half-eaten bits of resentment flow by. They do not cohere. But they move in the same, insistent current of self, self, self."

User avatar
Forsher
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 22041
Founded: Jan 30, 2012
New York Times Democracy

Postby Forsher » Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:57 pm

US-SSR wrote:Psychology, in order to convince him to resign.


Wouldn't that just put Pence in?
That it Could be What it Is, Is What it Is

Stop making shit up, though. Links, or it's a God-damn lie and you know it.

The normie life is heteronormie

We won't know until 2053 when it'll be really obvious what he should've done. [...] We have no option but to guess.

User avatar
Phoenicaea
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1968
Founded: May 24, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Phoenicaea » Wed Sep 04, 2019 1:56 am

^i agree with the author of this page. furtherly, we see growing 'there s fact' debating, often to substain absurd things. or risible graphics. we can t clue landscape with lines
Last edited by Phoenicaea on Wed Sep 04, 2019 1:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Chestaan
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6977
Founded: Sep 30, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Chestaan » Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:38 am

A few things here. Firstly on "evidence based policy" I find the term itself to be massively problematic. It feeds into the end of history notion and implies that there is one true set of policies that lead to the optimal outcome. This allows politicians to pretend that they do not have any ideological agenda, they are just being "pragmatic".

Secondly, on regressions I agree to an extent that the wage gap and other issues which regressions are made for need to be explained better. But I'm not sure that talking about regressions or even the logic of them is necessary. All the lay person needs to know is that there are many factors at play in these areas, such as working hours, flexibility and so on. Even drilling into people's heads the idea that correlation is not equal to causation would help. I've been studying economics for 9 years in college now and I was only introduced to the concept in my final year of undergrad. I had to derive the maths during my Masters course. Maybe people need to be told that we have this statistcal technique that can measure the effect of several variables on whatever outcome we are looking at but that's probably the extent of the knowledge that they need.

Finally, I think that logic/critical thinking or something similar needs to be taught in schools from an early age. This perhaps needs to be thrown in with a healthy dose of statistics. For the logic part, people really tend to take the soundbites and just run with them. They need an overall headline stat to sum up the entirety of an idea or problem. This is really bad for society. Recently myself and my girlfriend were reading an article that stated that C-section births increase the risk of causing autism in the child by 17%. On first glance that looks terrifying and several people probably will jump to thinking that 17% of C-section babies will have autism. But when you break it down, and realise that 17% of a very small number is itself a very very very small number the issue seems much smaller. Still an issue, but not catastrophic. But this type of statistics can cause hysteria and really we should teach students enough that they can analyse these stats.
Council Communist
TG me if you want to chat, especially about economics, you can never have enough discussions on economics.Especially game theory :)
Economic Left/Right: -9.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.62

Getting the Guillotine

User avatar
Forsher
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 22041
Founded: Jan 30, 2012
New York Times Democracy

Postby Forsher » Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:11 am

It disagree teaching just the logic of regression is insufficient because well you'll just have to look at the wage Gap myth myth. People know the raw statistics don't show what they're supposed to be representing but because they don't know about regression conclude the statistics we do have complete rubbish. If you know what regression is then you're take the raw statistics and think they are showing something just not the same thing as you get with regression.

People save all you have is a hammer every problems a nails what you think is possible pins on what tools you know exist. if you have a hammer and a drill you don't suddenly start thinking nails don't exist. Instead you look at screws and nails and say right different tools but both of things I need to work on.

Sorry about grammar for some reason trying to dictate this.
That it Could be What it Is, Is What it Is

Stop making shit up, though. Links, or it's a God-damn lie and you know it.

The normie life is heteronormie

We won't know until 2053 when it'll be really obvious what he should've done. [...] We have no option but to guess.

User avatar
Chan Island
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6824
Founded: Nov 26, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Chan Island » Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:31 am

Evidence based policy is a great idea.... problem is that there is a lot of data out there! Takes more than just 5 minutes tapping a phrase into Google to come up with a clear, solid, obviously evidence-based policy.

For on the subjects I really have wanted to make sure I'm right on, say because I was going to have an exam in politics class on it, I noticed it took days, often weeks, to really drill down the subject to a level where I could confidently say I was somewhat following the evidence. Ain't no politician got time for that, never mind the ever changing nature of the world.

And never mind of course that it all comes down to values as well. A particularly evil politician might make a certain evidence based choice that leads to terrible outcomes for everyone, because that was their end goal.

The classic one I point to is crime.

Generally there are 2 broad approaches when dealing with crime and, all bias and handwringing aside, they actually work on their extremes. Extreme punishments executing criminals in horrendous cruelty backed up by extensive, invasive surveillance, kangaroo courts and heavy-handed police enforcement does actually reduce petty street crime- but who actually wants to live like that, aside from the world's fascists and dictators? And in the long term it risks revolution because people don't like living in fear.
The alternative, to focus on making the life conditions of everyone better (including tackling things like corruption, poverty and health) and rehabilitating criminals, is both more effort, more resources and riskier to set up, but once established is longer lasting and makes life better for the people living in that society.

Which is an evidence-based policy going to pursue though? Saying 'reducing crime' won't cut it, because both approaches work. Now we're in the land of values and preferences. And frankly, evidence doesn't really change what you personally consider important.
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=513597&p=39401766#p39401766
Conserative Morality wrote:"It's not time yet" is a tactic used by reactionaries in every era. "It's not time for democracy, it's not time for capitalism, it's not time for emancipation." Of course it's not time. It's never time, not on its own. You make it time. If you're under fire in the no-man's land of WW1, you start digging a foxhole even if the ideal time would be when you *aren't* being bombarded, because once you wait for it to be 'time', other situations will need your attention, assuming you survive that long. If the fields aren't furrowed, plow them. If the iron is not hot, make it so. If society is not ready, change it.

User avatar
Chestaan
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6977
Founded: Sep 30, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Chestaan » Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:19 am

Forsher wrote:It disagree teaching just the logic of regression is insufficient because well you'll just have to look at the wage Gap myth myth. People know the raw statistics don't show what they're supposed to be representing but because they don't know about regression conclude the statistics we do have complete rubbish. If you know what regression is then you're take the raw statistics and think they are showing something just not the same thing as you get with regression.

People save all you have is a hammer every problems a nails what you think is possible pins on what tools you know exist. if you have a hammer and a drill you don't suddenly start thinking nails don't exist. Instead you look at screws and nails and say right different tools but both of things I need to work on.

Sorry about grammar for some reason trying to dictate this.



Oh no, I mean that teaching the logic of regressions is all that would be needed. The very bare bones logic, they wouldn't even have to know how to run them. I'm fact if all they knew was that a statistcal tool.exists that can show how each individual variable affects an outcome I think that would be enough. Even knowing how to run them on Excel is probably more knowledge that most people need.
Council Communist
TG me if you want to chat, especially about economics, you can never have enough discussions on economics.Especially game theory :)
Economic Left/Right: -9.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.62

Getting the Guillotine

User avatar
LimaUniformNovemberAlpha
Senator
 
Posts: 4364
Founded: Apr 05, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:56 pm

Humanities don't even claim to be scientific, and social sciences aren't necessarily as rigorous as the physical sciences, being that the involvement of human behaviour makes the matter more emotionally charged. (Who could forget underestimation of the likelihood of survey respondents to lie?)

Climate change denialists for the most part either just want to keep burning fossil fuels and eating lots of meat without accepting blame for floods, or want to keep worshipping the free market without accepting blame for the broader consequences, including but not limited to climate change. Otherwise, people wouldn't take it so personally.

The remainder of climate change denialists are probably people who just got swept up in the guilt-by-association mentality of ignoring scientists who happen to say the things vaguely similar to what a few alarmist non-scientists happen to say.
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:1. The PRC is not a Communist State, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
2. The CCP is not a Communist Party, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
3. Xi Jinping and his cronies are not Communists, as they have shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.

How do we know this? Because the first step toward Communism is Socialism, and none of the aforementioned are even remotely Socialist in any way, shape, or form.

User avatar
LimaUniformNovemberAlpha
Senator
 
Posts: 4364
Founded: Apr 05, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:58 pm

Forsher wrote:
US-SSR wrote:Psychology, in order to convince him to resign.


Wouldn't that just put Pence in?

Still an improvement, relatively speaking. Someone with a more rational mind might not use the might of the US military (and its nukes) as rashly.
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:1. The PRC is not a Communist State, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
2. The CCP is not a Communist Party, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
3. Xi Jinping and his cronies are not Communists, as they have shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.

How do we know this? Because the first step toward Communism is Socialism, and none of the aforementioned are even remotely Socialist in any way, shape, or form.

User avatar
Forsher
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 22041
Founded: Jan 30, 2012
New York Times Democracy

Postby Forsher » Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:09 pm

Chestaan wrote:
Forsher wrote:It disagree teaching just the logic of regression is insufficient because well you'll just have to look at the wage Gap myth myth. People know the raw statistics don't show what they're supposed to be representing but because they don't know about regression conclude the statistics we do have complete rubbish. If you know what regression is then you're take the raw statistics and think they are showing something just not the same thing as you get with regression.

People save all you have is a hammer every problems a nails what you think is possible pins on what tools you know exist. if you have a hammer and a drill you don't suddenly start thinking nails don't exist. Instead you look at screws and nails and say right different tools but both of things I need to work on.

Sorry about grammar for some reason trying to dictate this.



Oh no, I mean that teaching the logic of regressions is all that would be needed. The very bare bones logic, they wouldn't even have to know how to run them. I'm fact if all they knew was that a statistcal tool.exists that can show how each individual variable affects an outcome I think that would be enough. Even knowing how to run them on Excel is probably more knowledge that most people need.


Yeah, that's the dictation decision coming back to bite me in the arse.

I don't think the logic is sufficient per se. I agree they wouldn't need to know how to run them in Excel but that's because Excel's a really convoluted way of running regression compared to the following in R (or the equivalents in Stata or SAS or whatever):

lm(wage ~ male + job + yearsofeducation, data = data.df)

or something more "complex" like a tree:

rpart(wage ~ male + job + yearsofeducation, data = data.df)

or even point and click stuff in SPSS or whatever.

I think people have most of the logic of regression already. It's kind of common sense that you should be able to take other variables into account. And sure it's completely unstructured. They don't see what they're doing as being conditional reasoning or modelling or however else we want to frame regression and its logics (ceteris paribus or whatever... in the case of linear regression). But I don't think giving that structure without any kind of doing will be reap the same advantages.

And, sure, if you're teaching regression without its assumptions that's going to be very dangerous, but I have a little faith that once you get people to think, er, regressively that getting them to think about assumptions will be easier. At least, if the alternative is taking people who don't think regressively and trying to get them to consider it as an idea.
That it Could be What it Is, Is What it Is

Stop making shit up, though. Links, or it's a God-damn lie and you know it.

The normie life is heteronormie

We won't know until 2053 when it'll be really obvious what he should've done. [...] We have no option but to guess.

User avatar
Chestaan
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6977
Founded: Sep 30, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Chestaan » Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:06 am

I'm pretty much in agreement with all of that, the only reservation I would have is that, having taught regressions to final year economics students, I would wonder how well the general public could get their head around the concept before becoming disinterested in it.
Council Communist
TG me if you want to chat, especially about economics, you can never have enough discussions on economics.Especially game theory :)
Economic Left/Right: -9.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.62

Getting the Guillotine

User avatar
Playing In The Water
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 393
Founded: Jun 02, 2009
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Playing In The Water » Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:02 pm

I am legitimately surprised at how many people here picked Climate Sciences. It kinda almost gives me hope, seeing that so many people seem to grasp the simple idea that runaway climate change is the defining problem of our time.

Those 'so many people,' of course, meaning everyone aside from those actually in power today. But hey, by the time the next generation is in charge some decades from now - when it is FAR too late to actually do anything about it - we'll be ready to start implementing useless solutions in earnest!
Terraliberty wrote:What do you call an abortion in Prague? A cancelled Czech!

User avatar
Blargoblarg
Minister
 
Posts: 2283
Founded: Sep 06, 2010
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Blargoblarg » Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:18 pm

Playing In The Water wrote:I am legitimately surprised at how many people here picked Climate Sciences. It kinda almost gives me hope, seeing that so many people seem to grasp the simple idea that runaway climate change is the defining problem of our time.

Those 'so many people,' of course, meaning everyone aside from those actually in power today. But hey, by the time the next generation is in charge some decades from now - when it is FAR too late to actually do anything about it - we'll be ready to start implementing useless solutions in earnest!

It doesn't surprise me, many people on NationStates are of the younger generations who realize climate change is the biggest problem we're facing. And I'm not quite as pessimistic about this as you seem to be. There's still a chance we can elect political leaders who accept the reality of climate change and deal with that problem before it's too late to fix.
Claudia De la Cruz 2024 Article about her here
Democrats and Republicans are both right-wing capitalists owned by the rich and the big corporations. Major media in the US is also owned by the rich and big corporations.
Major study finds that America is an oligarchy, not a democracy
"Workers of the world, unite!" -Marx and Engels
You can read The State and Revolution by Lenin for free here
My 8values results My leftvalues results
I am autistic.


Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Anti-void, El Lazaro, Evonath, Krasny-Volny, Krimalia, Xind

Advertisement

Remove ads