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Japan and racial homogeneity

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LimaUniformNovemberAlpha
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Japan and racial homogeneity

Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:44 pm

When you think of Japan, what comes to mind? The better automobiles? The efficient public transit? The colourful lights of Tokyo? The anime and manga?

Japan is a success story, a pinnacle of innovation and prosperity, and yet, a common criticism is its stance on race. Of all the examples cited of "Asia for Asians, white countries for everyone" it's arguably the one white people most badly wanted to go to in the first place. (Not that rejecting people pre-emptively before they even apply to immigrate was any less exclusionary.) It's notoriously averse to immigration, despite its aging population, as if they're holding onto some goal of racial homogeneity.

And yet, I cannot help wondering... what if the latter is the reason for those successes in the first place?

Regardless of any positive stereotypes about the Japanese or even Asians as a whole, another factor is the supposed value of racial homogeneity in the first place. It's human nature to side with one's own kind. It's plainly obvious from the conflicts between different races throughout history. It's no longer on that scale anymore, but is it possible that a smaller-scale version of that might be undermining the trust that clearly benefits co-operation? I wouldn't be surprised. If so, that is in turn useful to have in anything done more effectively as teams than as individuals...
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Postby Bear Stearns » Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:44 pm

Japan is a great country with great people. Leave it alone they're not hurting anybody.
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Rojava Free State
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Postby Rojava Free State » Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:47 pm

Saying Japan is "Asia for asians" totally fails to comprehend their ideology. The Japanese don't even want other Asians in their nation in large numbers. The Japanese are ethnocentric about themselves and have no need to share the spotlight with anyone else based on physical resemblance, at least in their minds
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Postby Munkcestrian Republic » Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:49 pm

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Neko-koku
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Postby Neko-koku » Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:00 pm

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:When you think of Japan, what comes to mind? The better automobiles? The efficient public transit? The colourful lights of Tokyo? The anime and manga?

Japan is a success story, a pinnacle of innovation and prosperity, and yet, a common criticism is its stance on race. Of all the examples cited of "Asia for Asians, white countries for everyone" it's arguably the one white people most badly wanted to go to in the first place. (Not that rejecting people pre-emptively before they even apply to immigrate was any less exclusionary.) It's notoriously averse to immigration, despite its aging population, as if they're holding onto some goal of racial homogeneity.

And yet, I cannot help wondering... what if the latter is the reason for those successes in the first place?

Regardless of any positive stereotypes about the Japanese or even Asians as a whole, another factor is the supposed value of racial homogeneity in the first place. It's human nature to side with one's own kind. It's plainly obvious from the conflicts between different races throughout history. It's no longer on that scale anymore, but is it possible that a smaller-scale version of that might be undermining the trust that clearly benefits co-operation? I wouldn't be surprised. If so, that is in turn useful to have in anything done more effectively as teams than as individuals...


Not all homogeneous societies are awesome though. Iceland is awesome because it is white in general and Nordic in particular. Japan is awesome because it is NE Asian.
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Neko-koku
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Postby Neko-koku » Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:01 pm

Rojava Free State wrote:Saying Japan is "Asia for asians" totally fails to comprehend their ideology. The Japanese don't even want other Asians in their nation in large numbers. The Japanese are ethnocentric about themselves and have no need to share the spotlight with anyone else based on physical resemblance, at least in their minds

Same for Korea.
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Bear Stearns
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Postby Bear Stearns » Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:02 pm

A buddy of mine interned at the Tokyo office of a mid-tier US bank. He said it was awesome. Business culture is like what America's used to be before PC HR departments ruined all the fun. Sounds awesome
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NERVUN
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Postby NERVUN » Tue Aug 27, 2019 11:38 pm

Oh joy. Yet another one of these.

Hate to tell you this, no one actually knows what the fricken racial composition of Japan is because Japan itself doesn't bother to keep track of it. Is it like the US? No. Is it somehow pure and only Japanese? No.

Also, the notion that somehow Japan, JAPAN of all fricken places, is kumbaya, we understand and get along swell, gotta have WA place, ignores SO much of what Japanese history IS, it's laughable. Simply and utterly laughable.

I really, really wish the anti-immigrant groups would stop salivating over Japan. I mean, they're almost, ALMOST as bad as the otaku set who think all Japan is JUST like their favorite anime.
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Nouveau Quebecois
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Postby Nouveau Quebecois » Tue Aug 27, 2019 11:42 pm

NERVUN wrote:Oh joy. Yet another one of these.

Hate to tell you this, no one actually knows what the fricken racial composition of Japan is because Japan itself doesn't bother to keep track of it. Is it like the US? No. Is it somehow pure and only Japanese? No.

Also, the notion that somehow Japan, JAPAN of all fricken places, is kumbaya, we understand and get along swell, gotta have WA place, ignores SO much of what Japanese history IS, it's laughable. Simply and utterly laughable.

I really, really wish the anti-immigrant groups would stop salivating over Japan. I mean, they're almost, ALMOST as bad as the otaku set who think all Japan is JUST like their favorite anime.

What exactly are you arguing against? Nobody is saying Japan is 100% pure and only Japanese. I can also assure you Japan isn't Heaven on Earth either. That didn't exactly need reiteration.
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Saiwania
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Postby Saiwania » Tue Aug 27, 2019 11:43 pm

Japan doesn't have to be 100% perfectly homogenous, the point is- that it is the one country in the world that is close enough to that standard for it to be praiseworthy. Japan has all the right anti-immigration policies and I love it. Japan has a way of keeping Japan Japanese. They must not lose sight of this and make the mistakes that countries such as Canada and Australia have made in becoming diverse.
Last edited by Saiwania on Tue Aug 27, 2019 11:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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NERVUN
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Postby NERVUN » Tue Aug 27, 2019 11:50 pm

Nouveau Quebecois wrote:
NERVUN wrote:Oh joy. Yet another one of these.

Hate to tell you this, no one actually knows what the fricken racial composition of Japan is because Japan itself doesn't bother to keep track of it. Is it like the US? No. Is it somehow pure and only Japanese? No.

Also, the notion that somehow Japan, JAPAN of all fricken places, is kumbaya, we understand and get along swell, gotta have WA place, ignores SO much of what Japanese history IS, it's laughable. Simply and utterly laughable.

I really, really wish the anti-immigrant groups would stop salivating over Japan. I mean, they're almost, ALMOST as bad as the otaku set who think all Japan is JUST like their favorite anime.

What exactly are you arguing against? Nobody is saying Japan is 100% pure and only Japanese. I can also assure you Japan isn't Heaven on Earth either. That didn't exactly need reiteration.

Look at Saiwania's post and THAT is what I am arguing against. It's the fact that as of late the alt-right, new right, whatever the MAGA groups du jure is calling itself now-a-days has decided that their racist anti-immigrant whatever is best reflected in Japan.

But it is not true. Japan's version of immigration is complex and a lot of smoke and mirrors that leave the actual number very much in doubt. So to say Japan is an anti-immigrant country is rather false. To say Japan is some how pure is false. To say that Japan is safe because of being anti-immigrant is also very much false.

Pretty much these threads almost always are posted by people who have never lived in Japan, stepped foot in Japan, know anything about Japanese history, or speak any Japanese. Like I said, it's the same as the anime fans who also wanna tell me about all things Japan never having lived here either.
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NERVUN
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Postby NERVUN » Tue Aug 27, 2019 11:51 pm

Saiwania wrote:Japan doesn't have to be 100% perfectly homogenous, the point is- that it is the one country in the world that is close enough to that standard for it to be praiseworthy. Japan has all the right anti-immigration policies and I love it. Japan has a way of keeping Japan Japanese. They must not lose sight of this and make the mistakes that countries such as Canada and Australia have made in becoming diverse.

*sighs* Please learn some Japanese history first.
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Ayytaly
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Postby Ayytaly » Tue Aug 27, 2019 11:59 pm

This thread smacks of colonial apologism.
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Postby Vassenor » Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:00 am

So basically ethnostates are a myth after all.
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Postby Saiwania » Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:07 am

NERVUN wrote:Japan's version of immigration is complex and a lot of smoke and mirrors that leave the actual number very much in doubt. So to say Japan is an anti-immigrant country is rather false. To say Japan is some how pure is false. To say that Japan is safe because of being anti-immigrant is also very much false.


Well, if that is the case- the point is that if the number is in doubt, the amount of immigration is probably less and not more. If it were more, people would be able to notice Japan's population looking drastically different than it used to. This hasn't happened, thus it isn't happening that Japan is becoming more diverse. Nor should this ever be the case. If it were true that Japan were importing a bunch of Blacks, Arabs, etc. you can bet that many people across the world would be complaining about it.

Japan didn't let themselves be ruined by an American military occupation, but they could've. Instead they made the best of things, and rebuilt in short order. After the US left, Japan went back towards what they really wanted as national policy, but kept any beneficial changes that they liked. That is their genius. They're willing to accept change that is advantageous, but will modify it for their own purposes.

By Japan's and by comparison to most other developed countries, Japan is as ethnically pure as it gets. Which is highly praiseworthy from my perspective. I love it.
Last edited by Saiwania on Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Pacomia » Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:09 am

Why does this matter? A country’s a country, regardless of whether it’s homegeneous or a melting pot.
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Postby Vassenor » Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:11 am

Pacomia wrote:Why does this matter? A country’s a country, regardless of whether it’s homegeneous or a melting pot.


Some people get irrationally obsessive about countries being ethnically homogenous because supposedly that is superior for totally not racist reasons.
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Ayytaly
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Postby Ayytaly » Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:12 am

Vassenor wrote:
Pacomia wrote:Why does this matter? A country’s a country, regardless of whether it’s homegeneous or a melting pot.


Some people get irrationally obsessive about countries being ethnically homogenous because supposedly that is superior for totally not racist reasons.


Some countries also have a history of brutal oppression based solely on ethnicity. Colonialism lives even to this day.
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Nova Cyberia
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Postby Nova Cyberia » Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:14 am

If Japan wishes to remain Japanese then I see no reason why it should not be able to.
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Hatsunia
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Postby Hatsunia » Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:16 am

Institutional xenophobia and insularity are detrimental to the Japanese economy, including its tech industry.

Japan once hooked the world on Walkmen, VCRs, compact discs and video game consoles. The country’s name became a global brand, signifying advanced technology re-imagined for everyday use. American competitors seemed one step behind, if not a bit square.

But sometime around the dawn of the new century, Japan’s lead vanished. Japan didn’t invent the iPod or the iPhone. Or Yahoo and Google. Or Amazon and Alibaba. Or Facebook and Twitter. Or Airbnb and Uber.

“A more agile style is needed for us in the last 20 years,” said Jun Yamadera, founder of software and web services company Eyes, Japan. “A breakthrough technology always starts in the U.S.”


So what happened?

One answer may lie in immigration. Silicon Valley attracts talent from around the world, whereas Japan keeps tight limits on immigration.

In some years, more engineers have moved to the United States on H1-B visas than have graduated from American universities, said David Weinstein, chair of Columbia University’s economics department.

“To get some sense of the impact of immigration in high tech, imagine what would happen to Silicon Valley if every U.S. tech company fired all their foreign-born workers,” said Weinstein, who teaches about the Japanese economy. “U.S. leadership would collapse.”
Last edited by Hatsunia on Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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NERVUN
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Postby NERVUN » Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:19 am

Saiwania wrote:
NERVUN wrote:Japan's version of immigration is complex and a lot of smoke and mirrors that leave the actual number very much in doubt. So to say Japan is an anti-immigrant country is rather false. To say Japan is some how pure is false. To say that Japan is safe because of being anti-immigrant is also very much false.


Well, if that is the case- the point is that if the number is in doubt, the amount of immigration is probably less and not more. If it were more, people would be able to notice Japan's population looking drastically different than it used to. This hasn't happened, thus it isn't happening that Japan is becoming more diverse. Nor should this ever be the case. If it were true that Japan were importing a bunch of Blacks, Arabs, etc. you can bet that many people across the world would be complaining about it.

Yeah, you know nothing, John Snow. The number is is doubt because Japan doesn't bother to count. It counts citizens, it does not ask for racial makeup. Meaning all them Koreans who took Japanese nationality? They're counted as Japanese. My sons, half Americans? Counted as Japanese. The fact of the matter is that if you claim Japanese citizenship, Japan counts you as a citizen and Japanese, you have families who did indeed mix, but that is not reflected in the slightest.

Japan also does a neat trick where anyone who is not a permanent resident is not considered an immigrant. Oh, sure, you'll be going home someday... Maybe. In the mean time Japan will just keep renewing your visa and not count you as an immigrant. Japan IS importing a load of foreign nationals, has been for years. Ask the large Brazilian population here. Or the Vietnamese who just took over as the largest group. It's under different names so the LDP can claim that it isn't, but as of right now, the estimated foreign resident population is 2.0% (And has been rising rapidly). That counts just those of us who have our gaijin cards, that's all. If you want to count noses how many halfs, niisei, sansei, etc here... that's a larger number.

Japan didn't let themselves be ruined by an American military occupation, but they could've. Instead they made the best of things, and rebuilt in short order. After the US left, Japan went back towards what they really wanted as national policy, but kept any beneficial changes that they liked. That is their genius. They're willing to accept change that is advantageous, but will modify it for their own purposes.

Seriously, please learn Japanese history.
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Ayytaly
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Postby Ayytaly » Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:20 am

Hatsunia wrote:Institutional xenophobia is detrimental to the Japanese economy, including its tech industry.

Japan once hooked the world on Walkmen, VCRs, compact discs and video game consoles. The country’s name became a global brand, signifying advanced technology re-imagined for everyday use. American competitors seemed one step behind, if not a bit square.

But sometime around the dawn of the new century, Japan’s lead vanished. Japan didn’t invent the iPod or the iPhone. Or Yahoo and Google. Or Amazon and Alibaba. Or Facebook and Twitter. Or Airbnb and Uber.

“A more agile style is needed for us in the last 20 years,” said Jun Yamadera, founder of software and web services company Eyes, Japan. “A breakthrough technology always starts in the U.S.”


So what happened?

One answer may lie in immigration. Silicon Valley attracts talent from around the world, whereas Japan keeps tight limits on immigration.

In some years, more engineers have moved to the United States on H1-B visas than have graduated from American universities, said David Weinstein, chair of Columbia University’s economics department.

“To get some sense of the impact of immigration in high tech, imagine what would happen to Silicon Valley if every U.S. tech company fired all their foreign-born workers,” said Weinstein, who teaches about the Japanese economy. “U.S. leadership would collapse.”


What the article fails to mention is that the US is esentially the sexiest country to go to if you're a foreign tech specialist, and has higher wages and demand compared to Japan. Not to mention that English is an L2 language in most countries such as India (former UK colony), whereas Japanese is hell to learn.
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NERVUN
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Postby NERVUN » Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:21 am

Vassenor wrote:
Pacomia wrote:Why does this matter? A country’s a country, regardless of whether it’s homegeneous or a melting pot.


Some people get irrationally obsessive about countries being ethnically homogenous because supposedly that is superior for totally not racist reasons.

What's hilarious is that this is supposedly why Japan doesn't have issues....

Because WWII and all of Japanese history never happened.
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Hatsunia
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Postby Hatsunia » Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:22 am

Ayytaly wrote:What the article fails to mention is that the US is esentially the sexiest country to go to if you're a foreign tech specialist, and has higher wages and demand compared to Japan. Not to mention that English is an L2 language in most countries such as India (former UK colony), whereas Japanese is hell to learn.

So what Japan should have done is made English a second official language and paid more attention (and money) to its software engineers, isn't that right?

because that's exactly what Hatsunia did
Last edited by Hatsunia on Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:24 am, edited 2 times in total.
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NERVUN
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Postby NERVUN » Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:23 am

Hatsunia wrote:
Ayytaly wrote:What the article fails to mention is that the US is esentially the sexiest country to go to if you're a foreign tech specialist, and has higher wages and demand compared to Japan. Not to mention that English is an L2 language in most countries such as India (former UK colony), whereas Japanese is hell to learn.

So what Japan should have done is made English a second official language and paid more attention (and money) to its software engineers, isn't that right?

They've been trying to teach it for years, but...
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