Atheism Discussion Thread:Tipping the Fedora

[The New California Republic]

Nope that's not how it works. For a morality to be objective then it needs to be true independent of the person stating it. The Categorical Imperative and Utilitarianism are.

I'd disagree. Both are entirely dependent upon a concept of "the good," or "the general well-being." What either of these terms mean is entirely up to subjective interpretation.

No. The Categorical Imperative doesn't depend on an external concept of the good or general wellbeing, as it arises from the Imperative itself. The Imperative works by exposing contradictions and negatives if an act were to be applied universally. None of the three formulations nor the KofE formulation depend on external concepts of the good or general wellbeing. Utilitarianism also is not really that subjective either, as it is possible to take certain measures of wellbeing as a given across society as a whole.

[Jolthig]

Ex-atheist turned Muslim here.

That's interesting. How did that happen?

Conversion to Islam.

To be fair though, my old atheism may not have been as thought out as yours. It's ironic that I understand atheist philosophy more than I do when I was atheist. My atheism was simple: I felt I didn't know what god to follow and all had the same amount of evidence but unconvincing. At least up until I became Muslim.

[Vivolkha]

I'm not talking about a sense of morality, but an objective basis for a moral code.

I don't think morality is ever completely objective. Even different Christian groups have differing views on the subject.

Is religion itself objective? No, it isn't - its generally an arbitrary code subject to interpretations.

Wait, is that how state laws work?

[Nakena]

Religion is subjective in its origins. And the problems arising from this aren't new.

Religious and mystic ideas and inspirations are inherent as our ability as humans to receive, exchange and process (to varying degrees, but usually fragmented) information from other dimensions/realms/planes of existence (whatever you want to call it) that appears to be populated by various beings and entities etc.

Religions are (unless they're made up in some way) in one way or another based onto interpretations that derivated from said information exchange. Even though most followers nowadays don't made their own experiences and relay upon textual interpretations and transmission made by people who had so. Or knew people who had. Which of course makes the whole matter already more blurry than it already is.

Oh and of course, as we have learned in the recent years in Information Age, theres always the possibility that info is just not useful at all. Or maybe even of questionable intent. Or just plain trash. :^)

[Jolthig]

As with morality, I believe religion is objective, given that all religion is revealed by God though I also know that it can also be subjective according to history and human interpretations. For example, I believe that the religion of Islam is objective because I rely on the Holy Quran, hadith, tafsir (commentary), and sirat (biography of Muhammad). Then, with Ahmadiyya, there is the books of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad and narrations of his companions of how he received his revelations.

These narrations from both Muhammad and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad tell us when and where the revelation of divine commands were revealed which strongly increases my belief that religion is objective.

[Kowani]

As with morality, I believe religion is objective, given that all religion is revealed by God though I also know that it can also be subjective according to history and human interpretations. For example, I believe that the religion of Islam is objective because I rely on the Holy Quran, hadith, tafsir (commentary), and sirat (biography of Muhammad). Then, with Ahmadiyya, there is the books of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad and narrations of his companions of how he received his revelations.

These narrations from both Muhammad and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad tell us when and where the revelation of divine commands were revealed which strongly increases my belief that religion is objective.

…Islam is objective because of the Qu’ran. But how do you know the Qu’ran is true?

[Jolthig]

As with morality, I believe religion is objective, given that all religion is revealed by God though I also know that it can also be subjective according to history and human interpretations. For example, I believe that the religion of Islam is objective because I rely on the Holy Quran, hadith, tafsir (commentary), and sirat (biography of Muhammad). Then, with Ahmadiyya, there is the books of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad and narrations of his companions of how he received his revelations.

These narrations from both Muhammad and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad tell us when and where the revelation of divine commands were revealed which strongly increases my belief that religion is objective.

…Islam is objective because of the Qu’ran. But how do you know the Qu’ran is true?

My belief is very simple: Because we have strong narrations from companions of where quranic verses were revealed given the various chains of narrations, all linking up to Muhammad himself.

[The Blaatschapen]

As with morality, I believe religion is objective, given that all religion is revealed by God though I also know that it can also be subjective according to history and human interpretations. For example, I believe that the religion of Islam is objective because I rely on the Holy Quran, hadith, tafsir (commentary), and sirat (biography of Muhammad). Then, with Ahmadiyya, there is the books of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad and narrations of his companions of how he received his revelations.

These narrations from both Muhammad and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad tell us when and where the revelation of divine commands were revealed which strongly increases my belief that religion is objective.

It's subjectively objective

[Kowani]

…Islam is objective because of the Qu’ran. But how do you know the Qu’ran is true?

My belief is very simple: Because we have strong narrations from companions of where quranic verses were revealed given the various chains of narrations, all linking up to Muhammad himself.

Explain, please.

[Andsed]

Religion simply claims to be objective. In reality morality coming from religious is just as subjective as morality coming from Atheist. The only way that could change is if you could somehow 100 percent prove god is real.

[Estanglia]

One question to all atheists: If there is no God, can there still be objective morality?

No.

In other words, without a God, can there be an act which is morally wrong?

Yes.

In order for something to be morally wrong, it has to go against one's morals.
This doesn't require there to be objective morality, just some form of morals.

[The Blaatschapen]

Religion simply claims to be objective. In reality morality coming from religious is just as subjective as morality coming from Atheist. The only way that could change is if you could somehow 100 percent prove god is real.

But proof denies faith.

And without faith, God is nothing.

[Vivolkha]

Religion simply claims to be objective. In reality morality coming from religious is just as subjective as morality coming from Atheist. The only way that could change is if you could somehow 100 percent prove god is real.

Which, by the way, you can't.

[Thepeopl]

Religion simply claims to be objective. In reality morality coming from religious is just as subjective as morality coming from Atheist. The only way that could change is if you could somehow 100 percent prove god is real.

But proof denies faith.

And without faith, God is nothing.

And he vanishes in a puff of logic.

[Estanglia]

I don't know whether or not a god exists (though I tend to lean towards there being no god at all), but, if there is a god, it either doesn't give a shit about us or isn't capable of showing that it gives a shit about us. A god (or something on the level of a god, but not a god as we usually think of one) may be proven in the future though.

So, I guess you could describe my beliefs as a mixture of weak agnosticism and apathetic agnosticism.

I'd like to add to your "if there's a God" possibilities the idea that God perhaps doesn't want to reveal himself to us directly, but would be perfectly capable of doing so.

Potentially, but that would largely fall under the 'doesn't give a shit about us' bit, as he would be perfectly capable of showing himself to us and (in the case of the Abrahamic God and others) potentially show atheists/agnostics etc. that god actually exists, thus potentially saving millions from eternal damnation for misbelieving, but doesn't.

To clarify, by 'it either doesn't give a shit about us or isn't capable of showing that it gives a shit about us' I mean that it either doesn't want to show itself to us explicitly (which is pretty much the only kind of proof of god I'd accept) or it cannot show itself to us explicitly.

[Kowani]

This post is infinitely better than my own when I was asked the same thing.

Thank you! May I ask for the link to your post as well? Just to see the points that were brought up.

Well said! These are just a few of the reasons I'm an anti-theist as well.

Thank you too!

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=464493&p=35958343#p35958343

I can’t quote it, because the thread’s locked, but I would recommend following the conversation down.

[Alvecia]

As with morality, I believe religion is objective, given that all religion is revealed by God though I also know that it can also be subjective according to history and human interpretations. For example, I believe that the religion of Islam is objective because I rely on the Holy Quran, hadith, tafsir (commentary), and sirat (biography of Muhammad). Then, with Ahmadiyya, there is the books of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad and narrations of his companions of how he received his revelations.

These narrations from both Muhammad and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad tell us when and where the revelation of divine commands were revealed which strongly increases my belief that religion is objective.

It's subjectively objective

This is the only true truth (in my opinion)

[Medwind]

Medwind, your privilege is showing. I’ve talked to people who have been in religious cults who have to worry about things worse than just the potential of disownment when their parents figure out they’ve seen Oz behind the curtain. Do you actually have anything to contribute here, or are you going to continue to be not listen to those of us with more experience about this than you?

"My privilege is showing"? LOL, lemme just tuck that away then XD you really don't know the first thing about me.

[Geneviev]

Medwind, your privilege is showing. I’ve talked to people who have been in religious cults who have to worry about things worse than just the potential of disownment when their parents figure out they’ve seen Oz behind the curtain. Do you actually have anything to contribute here, or are you going to continue to be not listen to those of us with more experience about this than you?

"My privilege is showing"? LOL, lemme just tuck that away then XD you really don't know the first thing about me.

You do seem to believe that it's easy to tell religious family that you're an atheist. If it's easy to you, you're lucky. But that's privilege.

[Medwind]

"My privilege is showing"? LOL, lemme just tuck that away then XD you really don't know the first thing about me.

You do seem to believe that it's easy to tell religious family that you're an atheist. If it's easy to you, you're lucky. But that's privilege.

privilege noun
priv·​i·​lege | \ ˈpriv-lij , ˈpri-və-\
Definition of privilege (Entry 1 of 2)
: a right or immunity granted as a peculiar benefit, advantage, or favor : PREROGATIVE
especially : such a right or immunity attached specifically to a position or an office
privilege verb
privileged; privileging
Definition of privilege (Entry 2 of 2)
transitive verb

1 : to grant a privilege to
2 : to accord a higher value or superior position to
privilege one mode of discourse over another

How does this apply? What advantage do I have? Not giving a damn?

[Geneviev]

You do seem to believe that it's easy to tell religious family that you're an atheist. If it's easy to you, you're lucky. But that's privilege.

privilege noun
priv·​i·​lege | \ ˈpriv-lij , ˈpri-və-\
Definition of privilege (Entry 1 of 2)
: a right or immunity granted as a peculiar benefit, advantage, or favor : PREROGATIVE
especially : such a right or immunity attached specifically to a position or an office
privilege verb
privileged; privileging
Definition of privilege (Entry 2 of 2)
transitive verb

1 : to grant a privilege to
2 : to accord a higher value or superior position to
privilege one mode of discourse over another

How does this apply? What advantage do I have? Not giving a damn?

The advantage of apparently not having any real danger to worry about.

[Medwind]

privilege noun
priv·​i·​lege | \ ˈpriv-lij , ˈpri-və-\
Definition of privilege (Entry 1 of 2)
: a right or immunity granted as a peculiar benefit, advantage, or favor : PREROGATIVE
especially : such a right or immunity attached specifically to a position or an office
privilege verb
privileged; privileging
Definition of privilege (Entry 2 of 2)
transitive verb

1 : to grant a privilege to
2 : to accord a higher value or superior position to
privilege one mode of discourse over another

How does this apply? What advantage do I have? Not giving a damn?

The advantage of apparently not having any real danger to worry about.

Not from that particular situation, regardless, I guess that means you're privileged too then. Everyone who isn't in the worst possible situation is privileged apparently, everyone on this thread is privileged in some way according to the way you're defining it.

[Geneviev]

The advantage of apparently not having any real danger to worry about.

Not from that particular situation, regardless, I guess that means you're privileged too then. Everyone who isn't in the worst possible situation is privileged apparently, everyone on this thread is privileged in some way according to the way you're defining it.

Those people who don't have to worry about this situation specifically are privileged, yes. That's not me and probably not everyone on this thread. It is you.

[Medwind]

Not from that particular situation, regardless, I guess that means you're privileged too then. Everyone who isn't in the worst possible situation is privileged apparently, everyone on this thread is privileged in some way according to the way you're defining it.

Those people who don't have to worry about this situation specifically are privileged, yes. That's not me and probably not everyone on this thread. It is you.

If it applies to this situation it applies to all situations.

[Geneviev]

Those people who don't have to worry about this situation specifically are privileged, yes. That's not me and probably not everyone on this thread. It is you.

If it applies to this situation it applies to all situations.

No, it doesn't.