NATION

PASSWORD

Atheism Discussion Thread:Tipping the Fedora

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Advertisement

Remove ads

What kind of nonbeliever are you?

Atheist
118
42%
Agnostic
62
22%
Apatheist
17
6%
Anti-Theist
38
13%
I Don’t Know
11
4%
Church of Satan
4
1%
Communist
32
11%
 
Total votes : 282

User avatar
Medwind
Diplomat
 
Posts: 605
Founded: Feb 25, 2016
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Medwind » Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:06 am

Nakena wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:I'm not only an atheist, I also don't believe in people, our institutions or any hope for this world.

Also the meaning of life is to simply reproduce. All the other supposed "meanings of life" people have come up with are garbage


Never give up, march on, no matter the odds until we can no more. Realizing our own mortality and limits, pass the torch to the next generation for they be better and get a little further. And repeat, until we're there.

That is by no means easy and its as slow as the first steps some aquatic creature might have done billions of years ago as it tried to move itself onto the land. But it is nonetheless necessary.

There where? Lol, where are you trying to go?

User avatar
Andsed
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6595
Founded: Aug 24, 2017
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Andsed » Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:10 am

Medwind wrote:
Andsed wrote:Sweet Atheism thread! Honestly just a simple Atheist here. I never really believed in god cause I guess I just could not believe it for some reason.


Your acting like just leaving your family is easy. It´s not and can be very emotionally difficult. It is not being a coward to not tell your family and it is ridiculous to suggest that.


Things are only hard if you make them hard imo.

No it´s fucking hard because your leaving the people who you grew up with and raised you on bad terms. It is not easy because your walking away from the people who are supposedly closest to you and have been with your for your entire life because they don´t accept you. You clearly have no idea what your talking about if you think that leaving your family behind is easy.
Hello I am Andsed welcome to my sig.


Amazing Andsed quotes:
Ok lets get back on topic so we don´t get this thread locked thanks to talking about my church windmill dancing.
Andsed is not legally responsible for any injuries that may occur if you take this seriously and somehow get a trebuchet and try to fling yourself into a plane. You fucking dumbass
NationStates going from serious debates about homosexuality to jokes about Jesus a marijuana dealer in the span of one to two posts since November 13 2002.
Sorry my mind is always in the gutter no it lives in gutter my mind is fuckin called pennywise it is in the gutter so much.
How does one outsource racism? Do you like get an Indian guy to call people and call them racial slurs?

LOVEWHOYOUARE~

User avatar
Medwind
Diplomat
 
Posts: 605
Founded: Feb 25, 2016
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Medwind » Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:11 am

Andsed wrote:
Medwind wrote:
Things are only hard if you make them hard imo.

No it´s fucking hard because your leaving the people who you grew up with and raised you on bad terms. It is not easy because your walking away from the people who are supposedly closest to you and have been with your for your entire life because they don´t accept you. You clearly have no idea what your talking about if you think that leaving your family behind is easy.

I've done it mate lol (although different reasoning than what's here, and eventually linked up later in life, but besides that no contact, disownment, etc.) Point is, you choose what to care about, if you dgaf about other peoples opinions it's real easy.
Last edited by Medwind on Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Andsed
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6595
Founded: Aug 24, 2017
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Andsed » Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:14 am

Medwind wrote:
Andsed wrote:No it´s fucking hard because your leaving the people who you grew up with and raised you on bad terms. It is not easy because your walking away from the people who are supposedly closest to you and have been with your for your entire life because they don´t accept you. You clearly have no idea what your talking about if you think that leaving your family behind is easy.

I've done it mate lol

Then you should understand why it is not an easy thing to do for many people.
Hello I am Andsed welcome to my sig.


Amazing Andsed quotes:
Ok lets get back on topic so we don´t get this thread locked thanks to talking about my church windmill dancing.
Andsed is not legally responsible for any injuries that may occur if you take this seriously and somehow get a trebuchet and try to fling yourself into a plane. You fucking dumbass
NationStates going from serious debates about homosexuality to jokes about Jesus a marijuana dealer in the span of one to two posts since November 13 2002.
Sorry my mind is always in the gutter no it lives in gutter my mind is fuckin called pennywise it is in the gutter so much.
How does one outsource racism? Do you like get an Indian guy to call people and call them racial slurs?

LOVEWHOYOUARE~

User avatar
LiberNovusAmericae
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5782
Founded: Mar 10, 2018
Left-Leaning College State

Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:19 am

Let's hope this thread lasts a good long time.
Nova Cyberia wrote:Thank you. I appreciate your respect for my low opinion of you.
Call me Liber for short.
Not to be confused with Novus America. We are different people with very different political opinions.

User avatar
Alvecia
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 18649
Founded: Aug 17, 2015
Democratic Socialists

Postby Alvecia » Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:20 am

Medwind wrote:
Andsed wrote:No it´s fucking hard because your leaving the people who you grew up with and raised you on bad terms. It is not easy because your walking away from the people who are supposedly closest to you and have been with your for your entire life because they don´t accept you. You clearly have no idea what your talking about if you think that leaving your family behind is easy.

I've done it mate lol (although different reasoning than what's here, and eventually linked up later in life, but besides that no contact, disownment, etc.) Point is, you choose what to care about, if you dgaf about other peoples opinions it's real easy.

You might want to sit down for this, brace yourself.

Different people have different experiences.
British
Atheist
IT Support
That there is no exception to the rule "There is an exception to every rule" is the exception that proves the rule.
---
Give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he'll stop asking you to catch his fish.
That's not happening
That shouldn't be happening
Why is that happening?
That's why it's happening?
How has this ever worked?

User avatar
Kowani
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16644
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:46 am

Rojava Free State wrote:
Alvecia wrote:Life is meaningless. Make it mean whatever you want it to mean.

For example, my meaning is to be happy, and to have other people be happy, because I like being happy and think others should get a chance to like it as well.


But life's purpose since the moment it began was to keep existing. Think about it, everything reproduces. It's an inherent drive in all beings to preserve their species, so that could be called a meaning of life

…No. A function of life is to reproduce. Purpose, no.
And speaking of which, homosexuals by your definition have just been opened up to a loooot of theistic discrimination.
Narcissistic (Hedonistic) Nihilist. Yes, I am edgy. I know.
Atheist and still proud of it. Spanish Expat.
Post-Capitalist, Post-Nationalist.
Rights are functionally just privileges society has deemed important.
Prydania wrote:
As a Canadian? I find Americans and their deep, deep distrust of the government to be fundamentally, critically, laughably flawed. I find some aspects of your country completely absurd. The distrust of anything remotely resembling authority is one. The gun problem that stems from that is another.

Seangoli wrote:You are spouting nonsensical drivel with no coherent thought, little logic, and at the end of it all just angry opining at the clouds based on a truly astonishly low level of knowledge or understanding of the subject matter.

0% Capitalism

User avatar
Vivolkha
Envoy
 
Posts: 241
Founded: Oct 15, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Vivolkha » Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:53 am

Medwind wrote:
Vivolkha wrote:While I oppose religion in nearly all cases, eliminating religion altogether requires some very brutal methods (see below) - for me, this is more of an ideal than a possible goal, at least on the mid term.

Many Communist regimes attempted to destroy religion but by the 1980s they had kind of given up, instead attempting to minimize their influence and undermine their doctrine. Official harassment and discrimination against religious believers was rife, as you pointed out. Side note, check the religious controls and other repressive religious legislation of the PRC today.

For a more hardline approach at destroying religion, see Communist Albania under Enver Hoxha, the only Eastern Bloc country that did outlaw religion and try to eliminate it completely, at a time where many other Communist countries were content with just keeping it under strict control.


Why do you want to destroy religion?

Well, here are several of my points.

Religion is unnecessary. Initially, religion attempted to explain how the world originated and works as well as establish a set of morality rules. In the modern world, science has routinely contradicted religious teachings on the origin of the world and laws of the Universe. Several proven/likely theories (Big Bang, evolution, non-geocentrism) have then been comically retrofitted into religious teachings even if it directly contradicts them (I'll go on this later). Furthermore, morality can exist without religion. We are human beings, we are social animals - we require the attention and care of others to survive. That alone justifies the creation of a set of rules that separate "good" from "bad" (admittedly this is heavily oversimplified).

Religion is arbitrary. It hangs on a deliberately unprovable set of beliefs because otherwise it would be long discredited. And from this arbitrary set of believes it derives arbitrary rules. Other positive rules in religious morality ("do unto others as you would have them do unto you") are subject to my previous point and do not even require religion in the first place to exist per se. Arbitrary religious rules can be harmful to health and at times directly contradict human biology. For eample, the tradition of purdah is harmful to women's health. In Christianity, sexually deprived priests have occasionally turned to abusing children. While religion depends on a series of unprovable beliefs, these points and the one on science signal that many beliefs behind religion are outright false and hence the rules derived from them are largely arbitrary.

Religion is an obstacle to progress. For one, there are always people that deny proven scientific facts on favor of those arbitrary religious beliefs (in its efforts to dismantle secularism in Turkey, Erdoğan has eliminated evolution from curriculums). Indonesia is home to the most climate change deniers in the world due to an overt focus on religious education. Developed societies tend to shift to rational thought, an approach that has brought LGBT rights and women equality to the table (both of which contradict major religions, by the way) and, not coincidentally, secularized quickly in the sense that the percentage of religious believers dropped drastically (with the notable exception of the United States, which continues to be very religious by Western standards).

Also, major religions are the ultimate form of control, as it threatens people with the literally worst possible punishment: eternal suffering in hell.

Why does religion survive, then? For one, because it relies on beliefs that can not really be proven nor discredited effectively (though note above that the balance is tipped towards the latter). But the main reason is because it offers human beings (false) hope against what, for most of us, is our biggest fear: death. It is only natural that an intelligent life form is scared of its permanent death and disappearence, else it would not survive (what is the point of fleeing predators?). And religion offers easy answers to very difficult questions related on this topic.

I won't point out the relationship between religion and violence/terrorism because the same can be done with a wide range of ideologies and beliefs, some of which strongly oppose religion (Communism).
No longer a Catalan separatist. National factbooks are grossly outdated as I focus on other nations to RP.
Pro: Liberal democracy, atheism, EU, EU and UN reform, open borders, capitalism (generally), welfare state, authoritarian drug policies, abortion, nuclear power, EU-Russia alliance
Anti: Religion, totalitarianism (immediately includes Communism/Fascism), Spanish repression, Maduro, Trump, alt-right, conservatism and "traditional values", right to discriminate, illiberal "democracy", SJW, drug decriminalization, social parasites, unregulated capitalism, monarchism

How to build a realistic totalitarian state | How to start with any nation type

User avatar
Kowani
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16644
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:56 am

Vivolkha wrote:Snip

This post is infinitely better than my own when I was asked the same thing. :clap:
Narcissistic (Hedonistic) Nihilist. Yes, I am edgy. I know.
Atheist and still proud of it. Spanish Expat.
Post-Capitalist, Post-Nationalist.
Rights are functionally just privileges society has deemed important.
Prydania wrote:
As a Canadian? I find Americans and their deep, deep distrust of the government to be fundamentally, critically, laughably flawed. I find some aspects of your country completely absurd. The distrust of anything remotely resembling authority is one. The gun problem that stems from that is another.

Seangoli wrote:You are spouting nonsensical drivel with no coherent thought, little logic, and at the end of it all just angry opining at the clouds based on a truly astonishly low level of knowledge or understanding of the subject matter.

0% Capitalism

User avatar
Jean-Paul Sartre
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1648
Founded: Jun 26, 2019
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Jean-Paul Sartre » Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:10 am

Medwind, your privilege is showing. I’ve talked to people who have been in religious cults who have to worry about things worse than just the potential of disownment when their parents figure out they’ve seen Oz behind the curtain. Do you actually have anything to contribute here, or are you going to continue to be not listen to those of us with more experience about this than you?
Last edited by Jean-Paul Sartre on Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
Luddite, Doomer, Atheist, Meritocratic Elitist
Politicscales
American exceptionalism, secularism, education, meritocracy in government, the electoral college, elitism, hierarchy, progressive income tax, universal health care, strong borders, GSRM rights, Stoicism, Existentialism
Islam, religion in general, the current state of American democracy, democracy without significant regulation, the free market, the popular vote for president, violence, revolution, hedonism, post-modernism
Unrustle your jimmies

User avatar
Attempted Socialism
Diplomat
 
Posts: 794
Founded: Feb 21, 2011
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Attempted Socialism » Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:29 am

Medwind wrote:
Attempted Socialism wrote:What part was unclear? I think that there is a current (Since the late 90'ies, I'd say) upsurge in religious activism in the US partly as a backlash to losing the younger generations. Thus making the current wave of fanaticism a passing phenomenon. I don't think the US will "get to Denmark" (To borrow from Fukuyama), but "none of the above" (In some fashion or other) is the fastest growing "religion" in the US and it seems to me that the younger generations will soon experience a plurality of non-believers.


Interesting. What is unclear to me is how your first sentence related to Pacomias post. They said they felt the need to shout bullshit every time they hear someone speaking about religion, and you said that that follows your impression from US media? I don't understand how you're connecting those dots. Regardless, can you post sources saying that atheism is the fastest growing religious preference? Some charts and graphs estimating future growth would also be useful if you have them.
I affirmed their "that's how bad it has gotten". Sorry about the confusion.
Anyway, there's no single authoritative source on religion in the US, as the US census doesn't include it. However, numerous polling companies do ask about it. Take, for instance, Gallup, where "none" grew from 0% in the 50'ies to 5-10% in the 90'ies and to around 20% now (The same poll also tracks whether religion can solve todays problems, further down - 2018 was the first year on record it went below 50% yes-answers!). What has driven that, most of all? Pew can answer that for us: Millennials. Each age cohort is mostly constant in religiosity, but each generation is less religious than the previous. There's ample reason to think this trend will persist.

Alvecia wrote:
Medwind wrote:
Interesting. What is unclear to me is how your first sentence related to Pacomias post. They said they felt the need to shout bullshit every time they hear someone speaking about religion, and you said that that follows your impression from US media? I don't understand how you're connecting those dots. Regardless, can you post sources saying that atheism is the fastest growing religious preference? Some charts and graphs estimating future growth would also be useful if you have them.

Not to speak for them, but it's not atheism that the fastest growing "religion", but the "nones".

Which is to say that when asked what their religious position is, they would not identify with any of the choices presented.
This does mean that they don't identify with any of the major religions, but also that they do not identify with atheism either.

Though often "none", "atheist", and "agnostic" can be grouped into the same category, which can skew the numbers.
True, but "what religion do you believe in?" with the answer being "none" is functionally equivalent to atheism. People might not use the word for connotations, but I see no substantial difference. Pew also groups them together, with subdivisons for people explicitly atheist or agnostic.


Represented in the World Assembly by
Ambassador and Chairperson of the Executive International Relations Committee
Marcie Elizabeth 'MacBeth' Illum
Cui Bono, quod seipsos custodes custodiunt?
Ivory Tower Critical-Realistic Sardonic Marxist Curmudgeon
Danish Political Scientist Seeks True Love Tenure
Specialities: State development; corruption; IR theory; Vodka
Experiences: Office-running; political campaigns; navigating byzantine academia politics

User avatar
Sensorland
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1770
Founded: Jun 30, 2013
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Sensorland » Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:34 am

Vivolkha wrote:Well, here are several of my points.
-snip-

Well said! These are just a few of the reasons I'm an anti-theist as well.
---Cool things are cool---
Pro:
Liberalism
Democracy
Secularism
Georgism
Pragmatism
Anti:
Political Extremism
Political Violence
Populism
Apathy
Theocracy
Have a free cookie!
Telegram me if you want!
- -

User avatar
North German Realm
Minister
 
Posts: 2773
Founded: Jan 27, 2019
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby North German Realm » Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:57 am

Medwind wrote:
North German Realm wrote:I'm not arguing about the merits of a personal god. I'm talking about the logic behind the existence of gods. Whether or not gods exist in general (I can't answer that. I don't know.) is not the same as whether there is "One God". The logic behind the existence of any supreme being is shaky at best, but the argument that "only one supreme being can exist" is illogical by its very nature. When you make an argument on why a god should exist, but don't extend it to the gods you don't want to exist (say, when you argue that God exists but Zeus, Odin, Set, etc. don't) you're intentionally suspending your use of logic. At least in my opinion.


Well, the argument is based off of religious doctrine, so if God exists, according to him he is the only God, and he also never lies, so in that case there can be no other Gods. I agree with you in that if there can be one there *theoretically* could be more than one, but if you follow an abrahamic religion then you believe there is only one, and just because it's possible that there could have been more doesn't mean there actually are more. Y'know what I'm saying? Idk, I just don't see it.

The argument isn't based on religious doctrine. One requires to prove that "God" exists before giving it religious attributes.This is the mistake you (and most Abrahamics) make. You prove your god could exists before giving him attributes like "the best, greatest, and only god ever". There are arguments on why there can only be one god, but most of them require suspension of critical thought in their basis.
------------------
------------------
------------------
North Germany
Norddeutschland

North German Realm will go through a massive overhaul in the next few months. Please stand by.
Homepage || Overview | Sovereign | Chancellor | Legislature || The World
30 June, 1912
Norddeutsche Morgenpost: The Papaun War begins on July 10 as the 7th North German Sea Battalion was deployed in Kaiser-WilhelmsLand to quell native uprising in Simpsonhafen. || North German Lifeguard Association founded on July 28 after 14 drown in the Batlic Sea after a pier collapsed in Rügen.  ||  Marie-Adélaïde of Luxembourg formally enthroned as Duchess of Luxembourg after constitutional crisis resolves in North Germany. || Emperor Mutsuhito dies on July 30, ending the Meiji era, succeeded by his son Yoshihito.  || North German troops escort 15,000 Jews leaving Russia after the Pogroms of 1912.

User avatar
Geneviev
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10636
Founded: Mar 03, 2018
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Geneviev » Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:15 am

Medwind wrote:
Andsed wrote:No it´s fucking hard because your leaving the people who you grew up with and raised you on bad terms. It is not easy because your walking away from the people who are supposedly closest to you and have been with your for your entire life because they don´t accept you. You clearly have no idea what your talking about if you think that leaving your family behind is easy.

I've done it mate lol (although different reasoning than what's here, and eventually linked up later in life, but besides that no contact, disownment, etc.) Point is, you choose what to care about, if you dgaf about other peoples opinions it's real easy.

You're lucky then. The thing I'm most afraid of right now is my parents finding out that I don't believe because it's not easy. Most people don't want to lose their families or risk their safety.
How many conductors does it take to screw in a light bulb? No one knows, no one ever looks at them.
Hessisch, German, 15 years old, musician, also not Christian anymore
Immigration, religious freedom, music education in all schools, die Linke
Nationalism, white supremacy, cutting music and arts programs, Donald Trump, AfD
#EternalLotharia2020

User avatar
Philjia
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9701
Founded: Sep 15, 2014
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Philjia » Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:30 am

Geneviev wrote:
Medwind wrote:I've done it mate lol (although different reasoning than what's here, and eventually linked up later in life, but besides that no contact, disownment, etc.) Point is, you choose what to care about, if you dgaf about other peoples opinions it's real easy.

You're lucky then. The thing I'm most afraid of right now is my parents finding out that I don't believe because it's not easy. Most people don't want to lose their families or risk their safety.

If your family isn't Catholic or Orthodox Christian, announce you've converted to Quakerism.
Quick the mind, sharp the action.
⚧ Gender and sex aren't the same thing. ⚧
Progressive reformist libertarian democratic socialist. Egalitarian, pro LGBT rights and gay marriage, pro gay adoption, pro EU, atheist, pro free speech and expression, pro legalisation of prostitution and soft drugs, and pro choice. Anti authoritarian, anti bigotry, anti radfem. White cishet male.

User avatar
Page
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10527
Founded: Jan 12, 2012
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Page » Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:37 am

Geneviev wrote:
Medwind wrote:I've done it mate lol (although different reasoning than what's here, and eventually linked up later in life, but besides that no contact, disownment, etc.) Point is, you choose what to care about, if you dgaf about other peoples opinions it's real easy.

You're lucky then. The thing I'm most afraid of right now is my parents finding out that I don't believe because it's not easy. Most people don't want to lose their families or risk their safety.


I won't lie to you, it's a shitty thing to be out of the closet as a nonbeliever with religious parents.

Mine were "moderate" Catholics and I was subject to a good deal of emotional abuse, guilt-tripping, and extortion.

There's no shame in staying in the closet if the closet is warm and safe.
I am a libertarian socialist.
I am ungovernable.
I owe no allegiance to any state.
I am bound to my conscience, not to the law.
I stand for liberty, justice, and peace.

User avatar
Alvecia
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 18649
Founded: Aug 17, 2015
Democratic Socialists

Postby Alvecia » Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:40 am

Attempted Socialism wrote:
Medwind wrote:
Interesting. What is unclear to me is how your first sentence related to Pacomias post. They said they felt the need to shout bullshit every time they hear someone speaking about religion, and you said that that follows your impression from US media? I don't understand how you're connecting those dots. Regardless, can you post sources saying that atheism is the fastest growing religious preference? Some charts and graphs estimating future growth would also be useful if you have them.
I affirmed their "that's how bad it has gotten". Sorry about the confusion.
Anyway, there's no single authoritative source on religion in the US, as the US census doesn't include it. However, numerous polling companies do ask about it. Take, for instance, Gallup, where "none" grew from 0% in the 50'ies to 5-10% in the 90'ies and to around 20% now (The same poll also tracks whether religion can solve todays problems, further down - 2018 was the first year on record it went below 50% yes-answers!). What has driven that, most of all? Pew can answer that for us: Millennials. Each age cohort is mostly constant in religiosity, but each generation is less religious than the previous. There's ample reason to think this trend will persist.

Alvecia wrote:Not to speak for them, but it's not atheism that the fastest growing "religion", but the "nones".

Which is to say that when asked what their religious position is, they would not identify with any of the choices presented.
This does mean that they don't identify with any of the major religions, but also that they do not identify with atheism either.

Though often "none", "atheist", and "agnostic" can be grouped into the same category, which can skew the numbers.
True, but "what religion do you believe in?" with the answer being "none" is functionally equivalent to atheism. People might not use the word for connotations, but I see no substantial difference. Pew also groups them together, with subdivisons for people explicitly atheist or agnostic.

I think much the same to be honest, but I’m willing to allow people their illusion in the matter.
British
Atheist
IT Support
That there is no exception to the rule "There is an exception to every rule" is the exception that proves the rule.
---
Give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he'll stop asking you to catch his fish.
That's not happening
That shouldn't be happening
Why is that happening?
That's why it's happening?
How has this ever worked?

User avatar
Page
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10527
Founded: Jan 12, 2012
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Page » Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:41 am

Rojava Free State wrote:I'm not only an atheist, I also don't believe in people, our institutions or any hope for this world.

Also the meaning of life is to simply reproduce. All the other supposed "meanings of life" people have come up with are garbage


I wouldn't even call reproduction the meaning of life. It's a thing that living things do, but that's not a meaning, it's a phenomenon.

Myself, I'm quite content to never reproduce. I just embrace existentialism and the freedom it confers..
Last edited by Page on Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
I am a libertarian socialist.
I am ungovernable.
I owe no allegiance to any state.
I am bound to my conscience, not to the law.
I stand for liberty, justice, and peace.

User avatar
Neko-koku
Minister
 
Posts: 3235
Founded: Jul 29, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Neko-koku » Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:42 am

Medwind wrote:
North German Realm wrote:I'm not arguing about the merits of a personal god. I'm talking about the logic behind the existence of gods. Whether or not gods exist in general (I can't answer that. I don't know.) is not the same as whether there is "One God". The logic behind the existence of any supreme being is shaky at best, but the argument that "only one supreme being can exist" is illogical by its very nature. When you make an argument on why a god should exist, but don't extend it to the gods you don't want to exist (say, when you argue that God exists but Zeus, Odin, Set, etc. don't) you're intentionally suspending your use of logic. At least in my opinion.


Well, the argument is based off of religious doctrine, so if God exists, according to him he is the only God, and he also never lies, so in that case there can be no other Gods. I agree with you in that if there can be one there *theoretically* could be more than one, but if you follow an abrahamic religion then you believe there is only one, and just because it's possible that there could have been more doesn't mean there actually are more. Y'know what I'm saying? Idk, I just don't see it.


The main logical problem with Abrahamic religions has always been their inability to distinguish between monotheism, polytheism and deism.

A = "There exists at least one deity"
B = "There exists at least one theistic deity"
C = "There exists one and only one theistic deity, namely the Abrahamic God"
C' = "The Abrahamic God exists"

A != C'
Last edited by Neko-koku on Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
We are mutant Japanese kitty cats that have taken over a post-human world which was destroyed due to human hatred towards other humans.

User avatar
Geneviev
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10636
Founded: Mar 03, 2018
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Geneviev » Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:44 am

Philjia wrote:
Geneviev wrote:You're lucky then. The thing I'm most afraid of right now is my parents finding out that I don't believe because it's not easy. Most people don't want to lose their families or risk their safety.

If your family isn't Catholic or Orthodox Christian, announce you've converted to Quakerism.

That would be very hard for them to believe, given that this is the first time I heard of Quakerism. :lol2:
How many conductors does it take to screw in a light bulb? No one knows, no one ever looks at them.
Hessisch, German, 15 years old, musician, also not Christian anymore
Immigration, religious freedom, music education in all schools, die Linke
Nationalism, white supremacy, cutting music and arts programs, Donald Trump, AfD
#EternalLotharia2020

User avatar
Neko-koku
Minister
 
Posts: 3235
Founded: Jul 29, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Neko-koku » Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:45 am

Page wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:I'm not only an atheist, I also don't believe in people, our institutions or any hope for this world.

Also the meaning of life is to simply reproduce. All the other supposed "meanings of life" people have come up with are garbage


I wouldn't even call reproduction the meaning of life. It's a thing that living things do, but that's not a meaning, it's a phenomenon.

Myself, I'm quite content to never reproduce. I just embrace existentialism and the freedom it confers..

Yeah. Breedism is simply nonsense. I actually care a lot about improving science. All "muh bloodlinez" eventually die out. Yet knowledge can survive the extinction of muh bloodlinez. Love knowledge and truth.
We are mutant Japanese kitty cats that have taken over a post-human world which was destroyed due to human hatred towards other humans.

User avatar
Kowani
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16644
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:46 am

Geneviev wrote:
Philjia wrote:If your family isn't Catholic or Orthodox Christian, announce you've converted to Quakerism.

That would be very hard for them to believe, given that this is the first time I heard of Quakerism. :lol2:

It’s the best form of Christianity.
Narcissistic (Hedonistic) Nihilist. Yes, I am edgy. I know.
Atheist and still proud of it. Spanish Expat.
Post-Capitalist, Post-Nationalist.
Rights are functionally just privileges society has deemed important.
Prydania wrote:
As a Canadian? I find Americans and their deep, deep distrust of the government to be fundamentally, critically, laughably flawed. I find some aspects of your country completely absurd. The distrust of anything remotely resembling authority is one. The gun problem that stems from that is another.

Seangoli wrote:You are spouting nonsensical drivel with no coherent thought, little logic, and at the end of it all just angry opining at the clouds based on a truly astonishly low level of knowledge or understanding of the subject matter.

0% Capitalism

User avatar
Page
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10527
Founded: Jan 12, 2012
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Page » Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:50 am

Kowani wrote:
Geneviev wrote:That would be very hard for them to believe, given that this is the first time I heard of Quakerism. :lol2:

It’s the best form of Christianity.


Quakers do have a lot going for them but I'd say Unitarian Universalism is the best form of Christianity. Back when I was 18 I got into it because I still couldn't let go of the idea of there being a god and an afterlife. But I eventually realized that even though it's a pretty way to view the universe, it's no less fake than the Catholic Church I abandoned. Still, UU has all of the tolerance and goodness you could ask for.
I am a libertarian socialist.
I am ungovernable.
I owe no allegiance to any state.
I am bound to my conscience, not to the law.
I stand for liberty, justice, and peace.

User avatar
Kowani
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16644
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:51 am

Page wrote:
Kowani wrote:It’s the best form of Christianity.


Quakers do have a lot going for them but I'd say Unitarian Universalism is the best form of Christianity. Back when I was 18 I got into it because I still couldn't let go of the idea of there being a god and an afterlife. But I eventually realized that even though it's a pretty way to view the universe, it's no less fake than the Catholic Church I abandoned. Still, UU has all of the tolerance and goodness you could ask for.

Oh, that one’s pretty good as well.
Narcissistic (Hedonistic) Nihilist. Yes, I am edgy. I know.
Atheist and still proud of it. Spanish Expat.
Post-Capitalist, Post-Nationalist.
Rights are functionally just privileges society has deemed important.
Prydania wrote:
As a Canadian? I find Americans and their deep, deep distrust of the government to be fundamentally, critically, laughably flawed. I find some aspects of your country completely absurd. The distrust of anything remotely resembling authority is one. The gun problem that stems from that is another.

Seangoli wrote:You are spouting nonsensical drivel with no coherent thought, little logic, and at the end of it all just angry opining at the clouds based on a truly astonishly low level of knowledge or understanding of the subject matter.

0% Capitalism

User avatar
Neko-koku
Minister
 
Posts: 3235
Founded: Jul 29, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Neko-koku » Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:52 am

Vivolkha wrote:
Medwind wrote:
Why do you want to destroy religion?

Well, here are several of my points.

Religion is unnecessary. Initially, religion attempted to explain how the world originated and works as well as establish a set of morality rules. In the modern world, science has routinely contradicted religious teachings on the origin of the world and laws of the Universe. Several proven/likely theories (Big Bang, evolution, non-geocentrism) have then been comically retrofitted into religious teachings even if it directly contradicts them (I'll go on this later). Furthermore, morality can exist without religion. We are human beings, we are social animals - we require the attention and care of others to survive. That alone justifies the creation of a set of rules that separate "good" from "bad" (admittedly this is heavily oversimplified).

Religion is arbitrary. It hangs on a deliberately unprovable set of beliefs because otherwise it would be long discredited. And from this arbitrary set of believes it derives arbitrary rules. Other positive rules in religious morality ("do unto others as you would have them do unto you") are subject to my previous point and do not even require religion in the first place to exist per se. Arbitrary religious rules can be harmful to health and at times directly contradict human biology. For eample, the tradition of purdah is harmful to women's health. In Christianity, sexually deprived priests have occasionally turned to abusing children. While religion depends on a series of unprovable beliefs, these points and the one on science signal that many beliefs behind religion are outright false and hence the rules derived from them are largely arbitrary.

Religion is an obstacle to progress. For one, there are always people that deny proven scientific facts on favor of those arbitrary religious beliefs (in its efforts to dismantle secularism in Turkey, Erdoğan has eliminated evolution from curriculums). Indonesia is home to the most climate change deniers in the world due to an overt focus on religious education. Developed societies tend to shift to rational thought, an approach that has brought LGBT rights and women equality to the table (both of which contradict major religions, by the way) and, not coincidentally, secularized quickly in the sense that the percentage of religious believers dropped drastically (with the notable exception of the United States, which continues to be very religious by Western standards).

Also, major religions are the ultimate form of control, as it threatens people with the literally worst possible punishment: eternal suffering in hell.

Why does religion survive, then? For one, because it relies on beliefs that can not really be proven nor discredited effectively (though note above that the balance is tipped towards the latter). But the main reason is because it offers human beings (false) hope against what, for most of us, is our biggest fear: death. It is only natural that an intelligent life form is scared of its permanent death and disappearence, else it would not survive (what is the point of fleeing predators?). And religion offers easy answers to very difficult questions related on this topic.

I won't point out the relationship between religion and violence/terrorism because the same can be done with a wide range of ideologies and beliefs, some of which strongly oppose religion (Communism).


Well, a religion in practice is a set of memes. Just like other sets of memes they evolved over time. Evolution doesn't really select for factual accuracy on matters irrelevant to personal lives. Moreover it tends to select for natalism and high tribal asabiyyah. Religion can not solve the problem of defection in Iterated Prisoners' Dilemmas. However it could create an illusion that IPDs don't actually exist which promotes in-group cooperation. So usually a religion is a package consisting of unfalsifiable statements on reality and tribal ethics (which generally includes breedism).
Last edited by Neko-koku on Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
We are mutant Japanese kitty cats that have taken over a post-human world which was destroyed due to human hatred towards other humans.

PreviousNext

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Caninope, Federal Spanish States, Google [Bot], Jean-Paul Sartre, Juristonia, Kowani, Tabor Horeb, Troyskova

Advertisement

Remove ads