Atheism Discussion Thread:Tipping the Fedora

[United Muscovite Nations]

Since it's not your religion, have you considered you might not be the best ambassador for its beliefs? There's a number of things I've seen in the last couple pages that are either outright wrong or not universal among Christians.

I had hoped that abandoning "born again" Christianity would shake Gen of some of his bad habits. Like conflating his particular brand of Christianity with all of Christianity. Or just stubbornly repeating the same line of argument over and over again without really addressing criticism of it.

It seems that this hasn't happened. I'm not sure what to make of that. Part of me doubts his sincerity, which I hope I am mistaken about.

Yeah, the main thing I noticed was equating hell with a punishment, when most Christians don't believe it is a punishment, at least not in a judicial sense.

[Neanderthaland]

I had hoped that abandoning "born again" Christianity would shake Gen of some of his bad habits. Like conflating his particular brand of Christianity with all of Christianity. Or just stubbornly repeating the same line of argument over and over again without really addressing criticism of it.

It seems that this hasn't happened. I'm not sure what to make of that. Part of me doubts his sincerity, which I hope I am mistaken about.

Yeah, the main thing I noticed was equating hell with a punishment, when most Christians don't believe it is a punishment, at least not in a judicial sense.

I'm not sure if it's "most" Christians, but certainly a significant chunk of them.

[Genivaria]

Since it's not your religion, have you considered you might not be the best ambassador for its beliefs? There's a number of things I've seen in the last couple pages that are either outright wrong or not universal among Christians.

I had hoped that abandoning "born again" Christianity would shake Gen of some of his bad habits. Like conflating his particular brand of Christianity with all of Christianity. Or just stubbornly repeating the same line of argument over and over again without really addressing criticism of it.

It seems that this hasn't happened. I'm not sure what to make of that. Part of me doubts his sincerity, which I hope I am mistaken about.

For a second I thought you were referring to me.

[Hanafuridake]

Do East Asian religions really count as religions? They don’t have gods or religious practices (at least some don’t). They seem more like philosophies.

They aren't religions in the Western sense of the term. They're also compatible with Western religions. Christian Buddhism is a thing.

No, it isn't at all. There are immutable differences between a religion which denies the existence of a soul, creator deity, or permanent essence, with another religion which preaches that one God created the world, sacrificed his son to die for people's souls, and imbued existence with an essence. There's no room for an atoning savior in Buddhism with the wheel of samsara, and no room in Christianity for the worship of a god other than the God of Abraham.

[Jinkyr]

If I am telling you something bad is going to happen to you unless you do "X", it's not an insult. It's giving you information about how to avoid that bad thing.
It's like a flat-earther telling you that you are going to fall off the edge of the Earth. No moral judgement involved.

Yet more bullshit. Telling someone they are going to hell(a place for sinners aka bad people) essentially means telling them they are a bad person and should suffer for eternity. That is a pretty big insult if you ask me.

If hell is where bad people belong and I believe you are a bad person, why on earth would I try telling you how to avoid it?
Seems more likely I am thinking you really don't deserve eternal punishment and am trying to keep you from going there on a technicality- (Sorry only believers in X religion get into heaven, even if you are Ghandi).
And either way- the decision of whether you go or not isn't mine to make. I'd just be telling you what the guys enforcing the rules are going to whack you for.

[Neanderthaland]

I had hoped that abandoning "born again" Christianity would shake Gen of some of his bad habits. Like conflating his particular brand of Christianity with all of Christianity. Or just stubbornly repeating the same line of argument over and over again without really addressing criticism of it.

It seems that this hasn't happened. I'm not sure what to make of that. Part of me doubts his sincerity, which I hope I am mistaken about.

For a second I thought you were referring to me.

It's a good thing your flags look nothing alike. That's all I'm saying.

[Rojava Free State]

Yet more bullshit. Telling someone they are going to hell(a place for sinners aka bad people) essentially means telling them they are a bad person and should suffer for eternity. That is a pretty big insult if you ask me.

If hell is where bad people belong and I believe you are a bad person, why on earth would I try telling you how to avoid it?
Seems more likely I am thinking you really don't deserve eternal punishment and am trying to keep you from going there on a technicality- (Sorry only believers in X religion get into heaven, even if you are Ghandi).
And either way- the decision of whether you go or not isn't mine to make. I'd just be telling you what the guys enforcing the rules are going to whack you for.

so the pious are basically just terrified slaves who obey God out of fear and paranoia and not out of genuine love or support. God is really starting to remind me of Joseph stalin with his behavior and the behavior of his followers

[Rojava Free State]

They aren't religions in the Western sense of the term. They're also compatible with Western religions. Christian Buddhism is a thing.

No, it isn't at all. There are immutable differences between a religion which denies the existence of a soul, creator deity, or permanent essence, with another religion which preaches that one God created the world, sacrificed his son to die for people's souls, and imbued existence with an essence. There's no room for an atoning savior in Buddhism with the wheel of samsara, and no room in Christianity for the worship of a god other than the God of Abraham.

Buddhism+Taoism=successful
Buddhism+shinto=also success
Buddhism+christianity=what?!

[Jinkyr]

If hell is where bad people belong and I believe you are a bad person, why on earth would I try telling you how to avoid it?
Seems more likely I am thinking you really don't deserve eternal punishment and am trying to keep you from going there on a technicality- (Sorry only believers in X religion get into heaven, even if you are Ghandi).
And either way- the decision of whether you go or not isn't mine to make. I'd just be telling you what the guys enforcing the rules are going to whack you for.

so the pious are basically just terrified slaves who obey God out of fear and paranoia and not out of genuine love or support. God is really starting to remind me of Joseph stalin with his behavior and the behavior of his followers

Assuming God exists then we pretty much are stuck with his rules. Whether he is a loving parent who wants the best for us or a sadist who sets impossible standards and arbitrary rules, there is no Christian belief system that gives us any say in God's judgement (excepting the idea we judge ourselves by God's laws in the final act). So any Christian telling you that their beliefs say you are going to Hell or heaven is telling you what God plans, not their opinion of whether that is the "right" call.

Either they trust the omniscient Creator is in a better position to know the facts or they believe it's his game so his rules- fact is they don't believe they are the one's sending you anywhere, just people passing on what they were told is the best way to avoid a bad afterlife.

[Attempted Socialism]

To evangelical Christians, warning people about hell is like stopping a child from putting their hand in a fire, but much more important. It's not an insult.

Not a direct insult, no. A threat ("I will send you to the God you'd wish you knew"), an attempt to show force ("I know the truth about the world"), a desire to shut me up ("If you don't shut up, you'll end in Hell"), an attempt to establish moral superiority ("I know that you're a sinner who will end in Hell, I am not")... but you already established that intent is not a justification.

And as I said intent does not matter as they should still understand that to many being told that they are going to hell is seen as an insult and know not to say because many (logically) see it as an insult. Kinda like how I should know not to blurt out a racial slur even if I did not intend to offend anyone. And besides let´s not pretend that many Christians when saying this stuff don´t intend to tell someone they deserve to go to hell

They are aware that people will be offended, but they will say it anyways because they care enough to risk offending someone to save them. That shouldn't be a bad thing.

So they prioritise their own power fantasy over the feelings of people, and that shouldn't be a bad thing? I also haven't met a Christian telling people about Hell in a way intended to show care or save people - it's always been in a context of making them submit to the questionable morality of the specific subgroup of Christianity. But you already established that intent is not what we're judging them on.

Not when your basically telling them ¨you don´t deserve to go to heaven you deserve to go to hell and suffer for entirety¨ Because that is what your saying when your telling someone their going to hell. No matter how much you deny and twist it that is the core message someone is sending. it completely reasonable to get insulted by that.

If I am telling you something bad is going to happen to you unless you do "X", it's not an insult. It's giving you information about how to avoid that bad thing.
It's like a flat-earther telling you that you are going to fall off the edge of the Earth. No moral judgement involved.
Heck, if you believe I'm going to suffer for all eternity for submitting my will to an egotistic being that is setting up arbitrary rules, I might not want to hear it- but I won't feel insulted unless you imply you are making the more intelligent decision.

This analogy doesn't work here, because we're about a group of Christians who do indeed think a moral judgement is involved. People telling me I'm already destined for Hell aren't telling me how to avoid it either, and you often get the impression that they are gleefully telling me my "final destination".
This is nothing like the Danish protestant priest I discussed religion with at length in my teens, whose take on Hell was that it was the absence of God; essentially that by not believing, you can't spend an eternity with him. Which is fine by me, to be honest.

Oh cut the bullshit. Just because someone may not mean to be insulting does not mean it is not insulting to tell someone they are so fundamentally fucked up they deserve eternal torture. If you honestly cannot see why that is an insulting thing to say than I am honestly speechless.

Trying to save a person from eternal torture should still not be considered insulting. If you were perfect, then it might be insulting. But all they're saying is that you're not perfect and they're trying to help you.

They're not trying to help me, and you already established that intent is not what we judge their actions by.

---

I would have said Atheist at one point, but I came to the realisation some time ago that I do not in fact know if there is no deity much in the same way theists don't know if their God/Gods even exist. I doubt the existence of a deity or any other inter/extradimensional beings but I have neither the knowledge or evidence not prove/disprove its existence.

I fear you mix the question of belief (Atheism - theism) with the question of knowledge (Agnosticism - gnosticism). If you doubt the existence of a deity to the point where you don't believe in one, you fit the definition of an atheist (Of course, how you choose to identify is up to you).

[Vivolkha]

Again, that's not what the Bible says.

No that is exactly what the bible said. You said it yourself:

The Bible says otherwise. Everyone deserves infinite punishment for sins.

If someone deserve eternal torture than they are fundamentally fucked up beyond repair as nothing else could justify such an extreme punishment. Unless god is just an power mad asshole which brings up disturbing implications for those who worship him.

God is a totalitarian dictator by this logic.

I would have said Atheist at one point, but I came to the realisation some time ago that I do not in fact know if there is no deity much in the same way theists don't know if their God/Gods even exist. I doubt the existence of a deity or any other inter/extradimensional beings but I have neither the knowledge or evidence not prove/disprove its existence.

The best you can do is to compare what God theoretically teaches and reality. Not only the problem of evil or the inherent logical problems of God being all-powerful, but the contradictions between the Bible's concept of Earth and proven scientific reality. Or how following a set of rules that will save your soul in fact actively harm you.

[Kowani]

No that is exactly what the bible said. You said it yourself:


If someone deserve eternal torture than they are fundamentally fucked up beyond repair as nothing else could justify such an extreme punishment. Unless god is just an power mad asshole which brings up disturbing implications for those who worship him.

God is a totalitarian dictator by this logic.

He kinda is…

[North German Realm]

No that is exactly what the bible said. You said it yourself:


If someone deserve eternal torture than they are fundamentally fucked up beyond repair as nothing else could justify such an extreme punishment. Unless god is just an power mad asshole which brings up disturbing implications for those who worship him.

God is a totalitarian dictator by this logic.

I mean, he is.

[Nakena]

If you don't like this (fictional) totalitarian regime that is nonetheless true for many millions of people, then join the satanist rebellion!

[Hanafuridake]

No, it isn't at all. There are immutable differences between a religion which denies the existence of a soul, creator deity, or permanent essence, with another religion which preaches that one God created the world, sacrificed his son to die for people's souls, and imbued existence with an essence. There's no room for an atoning savior in Buddhism with the wheel of samsara, and no room in Christianity for the worship of a god other than the God of Abraham.

Buddhism+Taoism=successful
Buddhism+shinto=also success
Buddhism+christianity=what?!

Two completely different religions which are irrelevant to the discussion.

[Salus Maior]

so the pious are basically just terrified slaves who obey God out of fear and paranoia and not out of genuine love or support. God is really starting to remind me of Joseph stalin with his behavior and the behavior of his followers

.....I knew I was making a mistake entering this forum.

[Salus Maior]

The Bible says otherwise. Everyone deserves infinite punishment for sins.

Then why are people allowed into heaven for becoming Christian? If human beings deserve unlimited pain for their moral failings, then accepting a religion has absolutely no bearing whatsoever. Anymore than a serious criminal expressing repentance before the law would be released.

Your religion doesn't even adhere to its own internal logic.

Not merely for that.

In fact, scripturally speaking there are going to be people who professed Christ, but failed to uphold what He taught. And so, do not enter Heaven.

[Andsed]

If you don't like this (fictional) totalitarian regime that is nonetheless true for many millions of people, then join the satanist rebellion!

Do you guys accept Atheist into your ranks?

[Salus Maior]

If you don't like this (fictional) totalitarian regime that is nonetheless true for many millions of people, then join the satanist rebellion!

Do you guys accept Atheist into your ranks?

That's what most Satanists are.

[Kowani]

Do you guys accept Atheist into your ranks?

That's what most Satanists are.

It’s why they’re on the poll.

[Kowani]

If hell is where bad people belong and I believe you are a bad person, why on earth would I try telling you how to avoid it?
Seems more likely I am thinking you really don't deserve eternal punishment and am trying to keep you from going there on a technicality- (Sorry only believers in X religion get into heaven, even if you are Ghandi).
And either way- the decision of whether you go or not isn't mine to make. I'd just be telling you what the guys enforcing the rules are going to whack you for.

so the pious are basically just terrified slaves who obey God out of fear and paranoia and not out of genuine love or support. God is really starting to remind me of Joseph stalin with his behavior and the behavior of his followers

No, that’s just the ones who accepted Pascal’s Wager.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

If you don't like this (fictional) totalitarian regime that is nonetheless true for many millions of people, then join the satanist rebellion!

If you think it's a fictional regime wouldn't that make Satan fictional as well?

[Vivolkha]

If you don't like this (fictional) totalitarian regime that is nonetheless true for many millions of people, then join the satanist rebellion!

Anti-theism is my own particular rebellion.

[Jinkyr]

so the pious are basically just terrified slaves who obey God out of fear and paranoia and not out of genuine love or support. God is really starting to remind me of Joseph stalin with his behavior and the behavior of his followers

No, that’s just the ones who accepted Pascal’s Wager.

No, Pascal's Wager is for agnostics. If you are not sure that a supreme deity exists or not, the wager says assume it does and that you want to be on it's good side. Worse that happens you die and not existing you can't regret being wrong.

If you actually believe in God, then there is nothing to wager. You are accepting God exists and that you either obey his rules or suffer the consequences. You aren't covering yourself because he might exist, you are doing so because (in your mind) he does exist.

[The Blaatschapen]

No, that’s just the ones who accepted Pascal’s Wager.

No, Pascal's Wager is for agnostics. If you are not sure that a supreme deity exists or not, the wager says assume it does and that you want to be on it's good side. Worse that happens you die and not existing you can't regret being wrong.

If you actually believe in God, then there is nothing to wager. You are accepting God exists and that you either obey his rules or suffer the consequences. You aren't covering yourself because he might exist, you are doing so because (in your mind) he does exist.

But all the time spent on worrying on g*d's judgement and doing stuff that g*d supposedly wants you to do is then time wasted. Pascal's wager is an incredible waste of time