Atheism Discussion Thread:Tipping the Fedora

[The Foxes Swamp]

Agnostic Theist

“The bigotry of the nonbeliever is for me nearly as funny as the bigotry of the believer.”
Albert Einstein

[Medwind]

I don't get not telling your family. I mean what's to hide? Your beliefs are part of who you are, and if they can't handle that then their not really family, are they? It's really not healthy to lie constantly imo. Whatever tho, you do you.

It's not like families that hold staunch beliefs aren't afraid to cause physical harm to their own if they don't fall in line and agree with them or anything...

No offense, but that just sounds like cowardice to me, from my pov, for multiple reasons. 1. It's unlikely. 2. You could get them locked up for it if you wanted to. 3. If it's really that big a deal then throw hands, sounds like some ass needs to be whooped in that situation.

[New haven america]

It's not like families that hold staunch beliefs aren't afraid to cause physical harm to their own if they don't fall in line and agree with them or anything...

No offense, but that just sounds like cowardice to me, from my pov, for multiple reasons. 1. It's unlikely. 2. You could get them locked up for it if you wanted to. 3. If it's really that big a deal then throw hands, sounds like some ass needs to be whooped in that situation.

So say you're gay/bi and you live with a homophobic that's had no problem kicking out or harming gay/bi relatives in the past, or a conservative Muslim and Christian family that has a record of expelling their own on the basis of belief.

Yeah, sure, tell them that you're the exact thing they hate, that'll work wonders.

[Neko-koku]

Been a staunch atheist and been keeping it a secret from my family since 4th grade. Funnily enough I have no clue what convinced me that theres no god back then.

I don't get not telling your family. I mean what's to hide? Your beliefs are part of who you are, and if they can't handle that then their not really family, are they? It's really not healthy to lie constantly imo. Whatever tho, you do you.

Oh boy. This isn't actually a religious problem. Instead it is a special case of a much more general problem of being different from family lol.

I'm a self-segregationist which saved me a lot of trouble.

[Neko-koku]

No offense, but that just sounds like cowardice to me, from my pov, for multiple reasons. 1. It's unlikely. 2. You could get them locked up for it if you wanted to. 3. If it's really that big a deal then throw hands, sounds like some ass needs to be whooped in that situation.

So say you're gay/bi and you live with a homophobic that's had no problem kicking out or harming gay/bi relatives in the past, or a conservative Muslim and Christian family that has a record of expelling their own on the basis of belief.

Yeah, sure, tell them that you're the exact thing they hate, that'll work wonders.

And people only tend to care if it is about religion or sexual orientation cuz taking a stand on these two issues can at least get you partisan support.

[Vivolkha]

What’s an anti-theist? Is it just anti-religion?

Basically an atheist who wants to wipe out religion.

While I oppose religion in nearly all cases, eliminating religion altogether requires some very brutal methods (see below) - for me, this is more of an ideal than a possible goal, at least on the mid term.

Oooo, that’s borderline.

The USSR was kind of anti-theist, at least occasionally I recall. Demolishing churches, stripping church power, intimidating clergymen, all that stuff. I might be wrong on some things, though.

Many Communist regimes attempted to destroy religion but by the 1980s they had kind of given up, instead attempting to minimize their influence and undermine their doctrine. Official harassment and discrimination against religious believers was rife, as you pointed out. Side note, check the religious controls and other repressive religious legislation of the PRC today.

For a more hardline approach at destroying religion, see Communist Albania under Enver Hoxha, the only Eastern Bloc country that did outlaw religion and try to eliminate it completely, at a time where many other Communist countries were content with just keeping it under strict control.

[Medwind]

No offense, but that just sounds like cowardice to me, from my pov, for multiple reasons. 1. It's unlikely. 2. You could get them locked up for it if you wanted to. 3. If it's really that big a deal then throw hands, sounds like some ass needs to be whooped in that situation.

So say you're gay/bi and you live with a homophobic that's had no problem kicking out or harming gay/bi relatives in the past, or a conservative Muslim and Christian family that has a record of expelling their own on the basis of belief.

Yeah, sure, tell them that you're the exact thing they hate, that'll work wonders.

Well, those are very specific examples. Regardless, even in those cases, why wouldn't you just leave of your own accord, once you were able to do so, (assuming you had to stay with them for financial, or legal reasons w/e) then inform them? Why would being kicked out upset you, assuming you were capable of living on your own? Is it better to live a lie to keep someone's opinion of you, over being honest with yourself and the world? Idk.

[Medwind]

Basically an atheist who wants to wipe out religion.

While I oppose religion in nearly all cases, eliminating religion altogether requires some very brutal methods (see below) - for me, this is more of an ideal than a possible goal, at least on the mid term.

The USSR was kind of anti-theist, at least occasionally I recall. Demolishing churches, stripping church power, intimidating clergymen, all that stuff. I might be wrong on some things, though.

Many Communist regimes attempted to destroy religion but by the 1980s they had kind of given up, instead attempting to minimize their influence and undermine their doctrine. Official harassment and discrimination against religious believers was rife, as you pointed out. Side note, check the religious controls and other repressive religious legislation of the PRC today.

For a more hardline approach at destroying religion, see Communist Albania under Enver Hoxha, the only Eastern Bloc country that did outlaw religion and try to eliminate it completely, at a time where many other Communist countries were content with just keeping it under strict control.

Why do you want to destroy religion?

[Medwind]

How so and then explain to me what an agnostic atheist is

It is possible to state one does not KNOW God exists, but nevertheless believe he does.
Then one is an agnostic theist.

Does that help understanding agnostic atheist?

Uh,.... I'm not sure about this lol. Sounds like faith. You've essentially described every follower of organized religion...

[The Blaatschapen]

Normally, I am apatheistic atheist. There is no god and I don't particularly care about the question.

I might sometimes venture into anti-theism, when a theist claims a monopoly on morality. But then again, this only happens on the internet

[Attempted Socialism]

OP perhaps you could include a sort of dictionary in the first post? A lot of these words seem to cause confusion, so I'll try to lay them out here:

- Theism is the belief in one or more (Personal) deities. Atheism is simply the lack of any such belief.
- Agnosticism is the claim that nothing is or can be known about the proposed deities. Weaker versions of agnosticism exists, mostly regarding specific deities.
- An agnostic atheist is thus someone who does not believe in a deity, but at the same time does not or cannot know enough to acertain the existence of some or all deities.
- Anti-theism is the stance that some or all religions/deities are evil. It's not enough to simply remove religion from the public sphere, it must be eradicated.
- A person can thus be an agnostic, antitheistic atheist. One could also be a theistic anti-theist in some senses (Some versions of Satanism falls into this category).
- A secular society is one where church and state is separated and religious influence is largely removed from policy-making. Some countries have that by law, such as France or Norway, others in practise such as Sweden, Denmark and Netherlands, and a few countries are legally secular but in practise manifestly not.
- An atheist society is usually a society that is very explicit about its secularism or one that also leans antitheist.
- An antitheist society is one that actively tries to remove religion and religious influences, such as closing down places of worship, arresting priests or banning religion. These have AFAIK always been Communist bloc countries.

There are probably other terms that often cause misunderstandings, but this should be a decent start. That also explains some confusions in the thread:

I used to be an agnostic, which to be fair is probably better than atheism, but I just can’t see any way that God or supernatural things could exist, at least the way most religions see it.

can I just add that I’ve always hated the idea of a “agnostic-atheist”?
you can’t be both at once
either you don’t know or you do, being agnostic means you don’t know if there’s a god, atheist means you know there’s no god. You could be an agnostic that leans atheist, but not both at once.

also gotta add that tips fedora for good measure

Agnostic is a position of knowledge, atheism is a position of belief. There's no conflict in being an agnostic atheist.

How so and then explain to me what an agnostic atheist is

---

Yeah, I understand what you mean. Awhile ago I was the edgy anti-theist, hard atheist kind of person but nowadays I just really don’t care, the existence of a deity or deity-like figure never had any effect on my life, so why would it now? I still don’t consider it possible, hence leaning towards atheism.

For me, that’s actually reversed. I actually now feel an urge to shout “Bullshit” whenever anyone talks about their religion. That’s how bad it’s gotten. I’ve yet to actually do it, but god the urge is strong.

I don't live in the US, but this follows my impression from US media. However, a positive thing is that the younger generations are the least religious ever, so you'll likely see that it was the last distressed reactions (Though they will last a few decades).

[Medwind]

For me, that’s actually reversed. I actually now feel an urge to shout “Bullshit” whenever anyone talks about their religion. That’s how bad it’s gotten. I’ve yet to actually do it, but god the urge is strong.

I don't live in the US, but this follows my impression from US media. However, a positive thing is that the younger generations are the least religious ever, so you'll likely see that it was the last distressed reactions (Though they will last a few decades).

Huh? I don't understand this. Regardless, the US is a very religious country, I doubt you'll see the US go the way of Europe, same can be said of most of Latin America, don't count your winnings till you win the game.

[Attempted Socialism]

I don't live in the US, but this follows my impression from US media. However, a positive thing is that the younger generations are the least religious ever, so you'll likely see that it was the last distressed reactions (Though they will last a few decades).

Huh? I don't understand this. Regardless, the US is a very religious country, I doubt you'll see the US go the way of Europe, same can be said of most of Latin America, don't count your winnings till you win the game.

What part was unclear? I think that there is a current (Since the late 90'ies, I'd say) upsurge in religious activism in the US partly as a backlash to losing the younger generations. Thus making the current wave of fanaticism a passing phenomenon. I don't think the US will "get to Denmark" (To borrow from Fukuyama), but "none of the above" (In some fashion or other) is the fastest growing "religion" in the US and it seems to me that the younger generations will soon experience a plurality of non-believers.

[The New California Republic]

You could also add The Gay Science and The Anti-Christ, both by Nietzsche, to the reading list, as they cover religion from somewhat different angles in comparison to BGE.

[North German Realm]

This is probably the ninth thread about atheism I've seen on NSG so far. I'm reasonably sure it'll end like the others. That said, I'm not actually an atheist. I can't know for sure if "gods" as a concept do or don't exist. I can, however, be certain that "only One God" does not. Well, as certain as a person can be of anything. So does that make me an agnostic or just anti-monotheist?

[Medwind]

Huh? I don't understand this. Regardless, the US is a very religious country, I doubt you'll see the US go the way of Europe, same can be said of most of Latin America, don't count your winnings till you win the game.

What part was unclear? I think that there is a current (Since the late 90'ies, I'd say) upsurge in religious activism in the US partly as a backlash to losing the younger generations. Thus making the current wave of fanaticism a passing phenomenon. I don't think the US will "get to Denmark" (To borrow from Fukuyama), but "none of the above" (In some fashion or other) is the fastest growing "religion" in the US and it seems to me that the younger generations will soon experience a plurality of non-believers.

Interesting. What is unclear to me is how your first sentence related to Pacomias post. They said they felt the need to shout bullshit every time they hear someone speaking about religion, and you said that that follows your impression from US media? I don't understand how you're connecting those dots. Regardless, can you post sources saying that atheism is the fastest growing religious preference? Some charts and graphs estimating future growth would also be useful if you have them.

[Alvecia]

- An agnostic atheist is thus someone who does not believe in a deity, but at the same time does not or cannot know enough to acertain the existence of some or all deities.

One definition that I quite liked was that gnosticism deals with "knowing", whereas theism deals with "thinking", or believing.

The definee then went on to say that if God is therefore unknowable, then everyone is agnostic.

[Medwind]

I can't know for sure if "gods" as a concept do or don't exist. I can, however, be certain that "only One God" does not.

And how can you be certain of this exactly?

[Alvecia]

What part was unclear? I think that there is a current (Since the late 90'ies, I'd say) upsurge in religious activism in the US partly as a backlash to losing the younger generations. Thus making the current wave of fanaticism a passing phenomenon. I don't think the US will "get to Denmark" (To borrow from Fukuyama), but "none of the above" (In some fashion or other) is the fastest growing "religion" in the US and it seems to me that the younger generations will soon experience a plurality of non-believers.

Interesting. What is unclear to me is how your first sentence related to Pacomias post. They said they felt the need to shout bullshit every time they hear someone speaking about religion, and you said that that follows your impression from US media? I don't understand how you're connecting those dots. Regardless, can you post sources saying that atheism is the fastest growing religious preference? Some charts and graphs estimating future growth would also be useful if you have them.

Not to speak for them, but it's not atheism that the fastest growing "religion", but the "nones".

Which is to say that when asked what their religious position is, they would not identify with any of the choices presented.
This does mean that they don't identify with any of the major religions, but also that they do not identify with atheism either.

Though often "none", "atheist", and "agnostic" can be grouped into the same category, which can skew the numbers.

[North German Realm]

I can't know for sure if "gods" as a concept do or don't exist. I can, however, be certain that "only One God" does not.

And how can you be certain of this exactly?

Because any logical argument made for the existence of one god is necessarily going to fit for the existence of other gods, if you tweak it a bit. Whether or not gods exist or not is a question, but if they exist, it is logically impossible for there to be "one" and "only one".

[The Grims]

- An agnostic atheist is thus someone who does not believe in a deity, but at the same time does not or cannot know enough to acertain the existence of some or all deities.

One definition that I quite liked was that gnosticism deals with "knowing", whereas theism deals with "thinking", or believing.

The definee then went on to say that if God is therefore unknowable, then everyone is agnostic.

Some people claim they know God exists. Usually they hear voices or are creationists

[Alvecia]

One definition that I quite liked was that gnosticism deals with "knowing", whereas theism deals with "thinking", or believing.

The definee then went on to say that if God is therefore unknowable, then everyone is agnostic.

Some people claim they know God exists. Usually they hear voices or are creationists

Well, yes, then you run into the discussion of "can you know God?". A discussion I'm happy to let theists have amongst themselves.

[Uan aa Boa]

How so and then explain to me what an agnostic atheist is

People like Richard Dawkins would describe themselves as agnostic atheists. They would say that an atheist is anyone who is not a theist - anyone who doesn't believe in a god. It doesn't mean that they claim to know for certain that there are no gods, and so an agnostic atheist would be a person who lacks belief without claiming certain knowledge.

A commonly cited example is Russell's teapot. The philosopher Bertrand Russell described himself as agnostic, but compared the existence of god to the existence of a teapot orbiting the sun somewhere out beyond Mars. He couldn't claim to know for sure that there wasn't such a teapot, but he certainly didn't give much credence to the possibility. Being a logician he set the bar pretty high for certainty.

[The Blaatschapen]

Some people claim they know God exists. Usually they hear voices or are creationists

Well, yes, then you run into the discussion of "can you know God?". A discussion I'm happy to let theists have amongst themselves.

Only biblically

[Alvecia]

Well, yes, then you run into the discussion of "can you know God?". A discussion I'm happy to let theists have amongst themselves.

Only biblically

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