NationStates

Gormwood wrote:

Novus America wrote:
Hey, we actually agree on something...

Why Hamas Won

Most importantly, perhaps, Hamas acquired much of its political credit from its charity and social service networks. It built kindergartens and schools (that offer free meals for children), education centers for women, and youth and sports clubs. Its medical clinics provide subsidized treatment to the sick and the organization extends financial and technical assistance to those whose homes had been demolished as well as to refugees living in sub-standard conditions.

In other words, Hamas was elected not only because it is considered an alternative to the corrupt Palestinian Authority, but also because Israel created the conditions that made it an indispensable social movement.

Ordenstaat Burgundy wrote:

Gormwood wrote:Maybe if Fatah actually aided the Gazans instead of sucking off Israel and enriching themselves they wouldn't have voted Hamas into office.

Oh Fatah's no better. Actually I would argue that by kowtowing to the Israelis they're actually worse. Don't get me wrong, Hamas is awful but at least they didn't surrender to an avowed enemy of the Palestinian people and a regional menace.

Neko-koku wrote:

Ordenstaat Burgundy wrote:
Oh Fatah's no better. Actually I would argue that by kowtowing to the Israelis they're actually worse. Don't get me wrong, Hamas is awful but at least they didn't surrender to an avowed enemy of the Palestinian people and a regional menace.

Israel is objectively good, like it or not. That's also easy to verify. Which country in the Middle East is the most scientifically productive one per capita?

Cekoviu wrote:

Neko-koku wrote:Israel is objectively good, like it or not. That's also easy to verify. Which country in the Middle East is the most scientifically productive one per capita?

How do you even intend on quantifying that?

Neko-koku wrote:

Ordenstaat Burgundy wrote:
Oh Fatah's no better. Actually I would argue that by kowtowing to the Israelis they're actually worse. Don't get me wrong, Hamas is awful but at least they didn't surrender to an avowed enemy of the Palestinian people and a regional menace.

Israel is objectively good, like it or not. That's also easy to verify. Which country in the Middle East is the most scientifically productive one per capita?

Neko-koku wrote:

Ordenstaat Burgundy wrote:
Oh Fatah's no better. Actually I would argue that by kowtowing to the Israelis they're actually worse. Don't get me wrong, Hamas is awful but at least they didn't surrender to an avowed enemy of the Palestinian people and a regional menace.

Israel is objectively good, like it or not. That's also easy to verify. Which country in the Middle East is the most scientifically productive one per capita?

Aureumterra wrote:

Neko-koku wrote:Israel is objectively good, like it or not. That's also easy to verify. Which country in the Middle East is the most scientifically productive one per capita?

Well, I mean the competition is pretty bad, every scientific discovery is shot down with “ALLAH SHALL NOT PERMIT THIS HERESY” or something around those lines in the region

Man has the Arab world changed since the good ‘ol caliphate days

Samudera Darussalam wrote:

Neko-koku wrote:Israel is objectively good, like it or not. That's also easy to verify. Which country in the Middle East is the most scientifically productive one per capita?

Tbh I don't really know which side is good, Israel with its illegal settlements (and historical invasion of Lebanon) and Palestine with its problems. The conflict has been going on for too long.

Neko-koku wrote:

Samudera Darussalam wrote:Tbh I don't really know which side is good, Israel with its illegal settlements (and historical invasion of Lebanon) and Palestine with its problems. The conflict has been going on for too long.

Nah. I mean from utilitarian POV. Israel is a lot better for human progress than Palestine.

Samudera Darussalam wrote:

Neko-koku wrote:Nah. I mean from utilitarian POV. Israel is a lot better for human progress than Palestine.

Probably, but in regards of 'regional peace' who knows. Both sides have their own roles in the conflict.

Ayissor wrote:I love how fellow socialists view Israel as an aggressive imperialist hellchild, which, to a degree is correct, as an Israeli I am not going to deny the discrimination against Arabs and Muslims in general, as a Russian I've seen discrimination against the slavic population too, but one thing they tend to miss and straight up ignore is that Israel when compared to Palestine is a socialist utopia, they don't arrest or stop LGBT events, that's for one.

Gormwood wrote:

Ayissor wrote:I love how fellow socialists view Israel as an aggressive imperialist hellchild, which, to a degree is correct, as an Israeli I am not going to deny the discrimination against Arabs and Muslims in general, as a Russian I've seen discrimination against the slavic population too, but one thing they tend to miss and straight up ignore is that Israel when compared to Palestine is a socialist utopia, they don't arrest or stop LGBT events, that's for one.

They just let an ultra-Orthodox go up to the Jerusalem Pride Parade and stab people. At two parades.

Jerusalem Gay Pride stabbing: ultra-orthodox Yishai Schlissel jailed for life

But it's easy to ignore when trying to maintain the narrative that only Muslims assault and kill LGBTs in the whole world.

Ayissor wrote:

Gormwood wrote:They just let an ultra-Orthodox go up to the Jerusalem Pride Parade and stab people. At two parades.

Jerusalem Gay Pride stabbing: ultra-orthodox Yishai Schlissel jailed for life

But it's easy to ignore when trying to maintain the narrative that only Muslims assault and kill LGBTs in the whole world.

I'm not saying Israel is perfect, religion in my opinion is a cancer as a whole, but they at the very least allow people to hold it, there is no government mandated crackdown on the LGBT community, it's religious people who think god gave them the right to murder someone.
It's the same reason Itzhak Rabin was murdered, hell, it's the reason there is a bloody war in the first place.
Not to mention, the article mentions he was jailed for life, he did something illegal pure and simple.

Gormwood wrote:

Ayissor wrote:I'm not saying Israel is perfect, religion in my opinion is a cancer as a whole, but they at the very least allow people to hold it, there is no government mandated crackdown on the LGBT community, it's religious people who think god gave them the right to murder someone.
It's the same reason Itzhak Rabin was murdered, hell, it's the reason there is a bloody war in the first place.
Not to mention, the article mentions he was jailed for life, he did something illegal pure and simple.

Rabin was executed as a traitor to Israel for daring to treat the Palestinians as actual human beings.

Ayissor wrote:

Gormwood wrote:Rabin was executed as a traitor to Israel for daring to treat the Palestinians as actual human beings.

That was no execution, that was murder, most Israelis agree on that, he was murdered by a man who saw the Palestinians as beneath him out of religious reasons, the entire conflict is just a religious mess, cut that out, give it a decade, there won't be fighting anymore.

Gormwood wrote:

Ayissor wrote:That was no execution, that was murder, most Israelis agree on that, he was murdered by a man who saw the Palestinians as beneath him out of religious reasons, the entire conflict is just a religious mess, cut that out, give it a decade, there won't be fighting anymore.

There are Israelis making regular pilgrimages to Baruch Goldstein's grave. I bet there are Israelis making regular pilgrimages to wherever Yigal Amir is being held. I would not be surprised if there are Israelis openly asking "Why can't we be more like Myanmar?"

Ayissor wrote:

Gormwood wrote:There are Israelis making regular pilgrimages to Baruch Goldstein's grave. I bet there are Israelis making regular pilgrimages to wherever Yigal Amir is being held. I would not be surprised if there are Israelis openly asking "Why can't we be more like Myanmar?"

Love to see your sources, including a number of how many people actually do that, ditto, and I can say with confidence there aren't, for one, he is in a high security prison being watched 24/7, for two, he is branded in Israeli schools, of which I attend, as a bloodthirsty traitor who stood in the way of peace, and who snuffed out our only ever hope of achieving an end to the war, not exactly "Praise material", if you ask me. Oh there are for sure, but you have to understand that the otherside isn't any better, so to blame one while the other has the same amount of insane people is cherrypicking in my opinion.

Gormwood wrote:

Ayissor wrote:Love to see your sources, including a number of how many people actually do that, ditto, and I can say with confidence there aren't, for one, he is in a high security prison being watched 24/7, for two, he is branded in Israeli schools, of which I attend, as a bloodthirsty traitor who stood in the way of peace, and who snuffed out our only ever hope of achieving an end to the war, not exactly "Praise material", if you ask me. Oh there are for sure, but you have to understand that the otherside isn't any better, so to blame one while the other has the same amount of insane people is cherrypicking in my opinion.

If the Palestinians had any real power besides killing a handful of Israelis if Hamas has a lucky day while getting slaughtered regularly when not being ethnically cleansed then I'd find it bothersome. As it is, they are mostly impotent rage while Israel has real power to manifest their resentments and hatred.

Ayissor wrote:

Gormwood wrote:If the Palestinians had any real power besides killing a handful of Israelis if Hamas has a lucky day while getting slaughtered regularly when not being ethnically cleansed then I'd find it bothersome. As it is, they are mostly impotent rage while Israel has real power to manifest their resentments and hatred.

That's not power? Is that normal? Hypocrisy much? Hamas is a terrorist organization that has no moral issues with targeting civilians, I'm sorry, but giving the other side justification to crack down on you by citing "security concerns", is not a good political strategy, they are idiots. Sure, but if the sides were flipped would something change? Shouldn't you criticize both sides for their bullshit and not the one who is the regional power? Also, please answer all my other questions, you seem particularly dodgy and cherrypicky.

Edit: You new source doesn't provide a number as to how many people visit the thing, it even states that extremists do that. Y'know, the minority who are called extremists for a reason?

Genivaria wrote:

Ayissor wrote:Being extremists does not automatically make you a numerical minority, that's an extremely simplistic view of it.
Or do you think the Soviet Union was a tiny country?