NationStates

United Muscovite Nations wrote:

New Hennig wrote:
Hamas is explicitly Islamist. That is whom we are speaking of.

Hamas is not the PA.

Rojava Free State wrote:

Purgatio wrote:
Look, we're not a hive mind, as a community we can disagree on what events in LGBTQ history we want to venerate or not, and I'd rather not venerate a violent riot that caused one of Greenwich Village's most liberal newspapers to publish relentlessly-negative coverage of the violence and by any sane metric set back the movement and mainstream acceptance of LGBTQ rights. Maybe it kick-started the modern LGBTQ activist movement but the Stonewall Riots themselves are nothing to be proud of, in my view. And me being a member of the community doesn't automatically mean I have to hold the same opinion about this event in history.

The stonewall riots happened because police raided a gay bar and couldn't leave people alone. The cops had no one to blame but themselves for it, and there will be riots when peoples' freedom is being compromised.

Thermodolia wrote:

Grenartia wrote:
"Islamic fundamentalist" is often a dogwhistle for "anyone who is visibly muslim".

I think you need your hearing checked then. Because Islamic fundamentalists is pretty fucking explicit. There’s really no need to dogwhistle this shit. They’d just say Muslims bad.

We had a fundie on here until he got DOSd there’s a difference between him and the rest of NSG’s Muslim community

Rojava Free State wrote:

Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia wrote:If the government back then actually bothered to forcefully dismantle Jim Crow as soon as possible (Earlier than in 1964) and desegregate the south whatever it takes, along with finally tackling the extreme levels of poverty and inequality among minorities, then you wouldn't have these inner city riots. The root of nearly all crime is poverty, mental disorders, substance abuse, and economic inequality. Remove that and you remove 96% of all violent crime today.

And after people like Malcolm X, Dr. MLK Jr., and Robert Kennedy were all assassinated in the same time period by violent extremists, it's not hard to see why race riots were at an alltime high. Now imagine that, after being a oppressed minority for nearly your whole life, a prominent leader who strongly pushes for basic human rights, reparations, emancipation and dignity to be granted to your kind after centuries of enslavement is assassinated by a violent thug before he could meaningfully dismantle the barriers holding your community back. You would surely feel immense indignation yourself.

Social order means nothing when the social order is actively against you

Novus America wrote:

Rojava Free State wrote:
The stonewall riots happened because police raided a gay bar and couldn't leave people alone. The cops had no one to blame but themselves for it, and there will be riots when peoples' freedom is being compromised.

I think calling Stonewall a riot is a bit unfair anyways. They were not burning and looting, it was more self defense.
Sure the late 60s early 70s riots were bad, but those are not representative of the Civil Rights movement as a whole. Sure parts of it went off the rails towards the end but it that is not reason to condemn the whole thing obviously.

Also in several cases it was white groups starting the violence.

Novus America wrote:

United Muscovite Nations wrote:Hamas is not the PA.

True, the West Bank government treats LGBT like inferior second class citizens.
Hamas jails, tortures and even executes them. As bad as the PA is Hamas is worse.

Rojava Free State wrote:

Novus America wrote:
True, the West Bank government treats LGBT like inferior second class citizens.
Hamas jails, tortures and even executes them. As bad as the PA is Hamas is worse.

The Palestinian authority is stuck in the 1950s

Hamas is stuck in the 1050s

Aclion wrote:*gets some popcorn to eat while he watches the left fight in its big tent*

Novus America wrote:

Rojava Free State wrote:
The Palestinian authority is stuck in the 1950s

Hamas is stuck in the 1050s

The PA is more 1850s. Things were not great in the 1950s on these issues but were improving.
But yes. PA is in the 1850s, Hamas is about a millennium behind the PA.

Grosscobra Reich wrote:Nice one. Crush LGBT. They're scum to humanity. They don't deserve to live, but die. DIE DIE DIE!!!

Grosscobra Reich wrote:Nice one. Crush LGBT. They're scum to humanity. They don't deserve to live, but die. DIE DIE DIE!!!

Grosscobra Reich wrote:Nice one. Crush LGBT. They're scum to humanity. They don't deserve to live, but die. DIE DIE DIE!!!

Rojava Free State wrote:

Novus America wrote:
The PA is more 1850s. Things were not great in the 1950s on these issues but were improving.
But yes. PA is in the 1850s, Hamas is about a millennium behind the PA.

How is the PA not the 1950s? Being gay was illegal in america till 1961. This totally would be the response the police in the US would have if this happened here back in the days of elvis. The culture in general in the Levant is a lot like the 20th century. The clothing is more formal, the cars are all old European cars and Every one likes Lionel Richie

Novus America wrote:

Rojava Free State wrote:
How is the PA not the 1950s? Being gay was illegal in america till 1961. This totally would be the response the police in the US would have if this happened here back in the days of elvis. The culture in general in the Levant is a lot like the 20th century. The clothing is more formal, the cars are all old European cars and Every one likes Lionel Richie

Well there was never a nation wide ban on being gay in the US. Most states had anti sodomy laws but enforce was virtually non existent by then.
The main difference though is again the 50s was certainly not good on these issues, but it was the beginning of the end. A time when most people were looking to start fixing problems.

Saying the Middle East is like the 1950s seems to imply over the next 30 years or so there will be massive improvements.

Saying it is like the 1850s acknowledges things are not getting better and will remain shit for another century.

Rojava Free State wrote:

Novus America wrote:
Well there was never a nation wide ban on being gay in the US. Most states had anti sodomy laws but enforce was virtually non existent by then.
The main difference though is again the 50s was certainly not good on these issues, but it was the beginning of the end. A time when most people were looking to start fixing problems.

Saying the Middle East is like the 1950s seems to imply over the next 30 years or so there will be massive improvements.

Saying it is like the 1850s acknowledges things are not getting better and will remain shit for another century.

It depends where in the middle East though. You're lumping a region full of people together when it's a very diverse area of the world. For example being gay has been legal in Jordan since the 1950s and Turkey legalized it back in the 1800s, so clearly they are beyond the 1950s in that regard. As for palestine, I found this

"According to a 2010 compendium of laws against homosexuality produced by the International Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transsexual and Intersex Association (ILGA), the decriminalization of homosexuality in Palestine is patchwork. On the one hand, same-sex acts were decriminalized in the Jordanian-controlled West Bank in 1951 and remain so to this day. On the other hand, in the Gaza Strip, the British Mandate Criminal Code Ordinance, No. 74 of 1936 remains in force and continues to outlaw same-sex acts between men, although lesbian women are not subjects of the code and their relations are thus, technically, not unlawful. Palestine has no civil rights laws that protect LGBT people from discrimination or harassment."

so being gay in the West bank is technically not illegal although gay people are still harassed by the authorities. So in that regard their gay rights are actually past the 1950s and more akin to the pre stonewall era of the 1960s and early 70s.

Then there's this case when it comes to lebanon:
"Article 534 of the Lebanese Penal Code prohibits having sexual relations that are "contradicting the laws of nature", which is punishable by up to a year in prison. As a practical matter, enforcement of the law had been varied and often occurred through occasional police arrests. In 2002, the police broke into a woman's house after her mother claimed that her daughter had stolen some money and jewelry. Upon entering the house, the police found the woman having sexual relations with another woman and charged them both with the crime of sodomy.

In 2007, Judge Mounir Suleiman called a halt to a criminal investigation of two men arrested under Article 534. He disputed that homosexuality was "contrary to the rules of nature" and noted that what was seen as "unnatural" reflected the social mores of the time. " the Levant is at least at the same social moment with gay rights as we were in the 50s or 60s. Clearly things are changing somewhat there and I expect that at least Lebanon will legalize gay rights in the next few years.

Not Saudi Arabia though. Definitely not them

Novus America wrote:

Rojava Free State wrote:
It depends where in the middle East though. You're lumping a region full of people together when it's a very diverse area of the world. For example being gay has been legal in Jordan since the 1950s and Turkey legalized it back in the 1800s, so clearly they are beyond the 1950s in that regard. As for palestine, I found this

"According to a 2010 compendium of laws against homosexuality produced by the International Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transsexual and Intersex Association (ILGA), the decriminalization of homosexuality in Palestine is patchwork. On the one hand, same-sex acts were decriminalized in the Jordanian-controlled West Bank in 1951 and remain so to this day. On the other hand, in the Gaza Strip, the British Mandate Criminal Code Ordinance, No. 74 of 1936 remains in force and continues to outlaw same-sex acts between men, although lesbian women are not subjects of the code and their relations are thus, technically, not unlawful. Palestine has no civil rights laws that protect LGBT people from discrimination or harassment."

so being gay in the West bank is technically not illegal although gay people are still harassed by the authorities. So in that regard their gay rights are actually past the 1950s and more akin to the pre stonewall era of the 1960s and early 70s.

Then there's this case when it comes to lebanon:
"Article 534 of the Lebanese Penal Code prohibits having sexual relations that are "contradicting the laws of nature", which is punishable by up to a year in prison. As a practical matter, enforcement of the law had been varied and often occurred through occasional police arrests. In 2002, the police broke into a woman's house after her mother claimed that her daughter had stolen some money and jewelry. Upon entering the house, the police found the woman having sexual relations with another woman and charged them both with the crime of sodomy.

In 2007, Judge Mounir Suleiman called a halt to a criminal investigation of two men arrested under Article 534. He disputed that homosexuality was "contrary to the rules of nature" and noted that what was seen as "unnatural" reflected the social mores of the time. " the Levant is at least at the same social moment with gay rights as we were in the 50s or 60s. Clearly things are changing somewhat there and I expect that at least Lebanon will legalize gay rights in the next few years.

Not Saudi Arabia though. Definitely not them

Fair enough. It should be noted that in 1955 the American Law Institute voted that homosexuality should be decriminalized and the new Model Penal Code should reflect this.
A major first step.

So some places like Lebanon or Jordan are better, and more like the US of the 1950s to 1970s.

The thing about the West Bank is unlike the US in that time things are moving backwards away from acceptance, not forward towards it. The US was getting better. The West Bank is getting worse. Saudi Arabia and Iran are worse than the US ever was so that is a different matter true.

Novus America wrote:

United Muscovite Nations wrote:Hamas is not the PA.

True, the West Bank government treats LGBT like inferior second class citizens.
Hamas jails, tortures and even executes them. As bad as the PA is Hamas is worse.

Note I am not defending the PA here. The PA is also shit. Unfortunately there are not good options.

Salus Maior wrote:I'm sure Liberal/Leftists students in the west will find some way to justify still being pro-Palestine.

United Muscovite Nations wrote:

Salus Maior wrote:I'm sure Liberal/Leftists students in the west will find some way to justify still being pro-Palestine.

Opposition to ethnic cleansing is the big way to justify it.

Salus Maior wrote:

United Muscovite Nations wrote:Opposition to ethnic cleansing is the big way to justify it.

While that's true, a lot of young liberal/leftist students go further and believe that Israel has no right to exist. Which also entails ethnic cleansing.

Salus Maior wrote:I'm sure Liberal/Leftists students in the west will find some way to justify still being pro-Palestine.