Palestinian police vow crackdown on LGBT events

[Internationalist Bastard]

Sure it is. People have a right to defend themselves against oppression. Our community was being beaten, arrested, harassed, charged protection money, killed, and raped by police. Most of the people who engaged in this were also people of color, and subject to even further systemic racialized violence by the NYPD in the late 60's. They eventually had enough and fought back. Uniting against their oppressors to reclaim a place where they actually could be themselves, they recognized the strength they could have if they banded together. We have them to thank for helping us secure our rights. They're heroes, and direct action remains one of the most important tools we have available, and we've frankly lost sight of the interconnectedness of our struggles with people of color, the poor, women, immigrants, and disabled people since we de-radicalized, but that's a topic for another thread.

How is it politically-smart for our community and movement to attribute our liberation to a historical event where members of our community deliberately inflicted violence on innocent people? The acceptance we've won today wasn't achieved through rioting and vandalism but gradually shifting the Overton window in our favour.

How do you think we got started? It’s one hundred percent justified to rebel against a system that refuses to change to stop oppressing you

[Loben The 2nd]

I would rather not get into a detailed historical argument right now, but even if it were true it is not remotely helpful for our side to be pointing such a thing out.

Sure it is. People have a right to defend themselves against oppression. Our community was being beaten, arrested, harassed, charged protection money, killed, and raped by police. Most of the people who engaged in this were also people of color, and subject to even further systemic racialized violence by the NYPD in the late 60's. They eventually had enough and fought back. Uniting against their oppressors to reclaim a place where they actually could be themselves, they recognized the strength they could have if they banded together. We have them to thank for helping us secure our rights. They're heroes, and direct action remains one of the most important tools we have available, and we've frankly lost sight of the interconnectedness of our struggles with people of color, the poor, women, immigrants, and disabled people since we de-radicalized, but that's a topic for another thread.

for the better for the rest of us.

[Threlizdun]

Sure it is. People have a right to defend themselves against oppression. Our community was being beaten, arrested, harassed, charged protection money, killed, and raped by police. Most of the people who engaged in this were also people of color, and subject to even further systemic racialized violence by the NYPD in the late 60's. They eventually had enough and fought back. Uniting against their oppressors to reclaim a place where they actually could be themselves, they recognized the strength they could have if they banded together. We have them to thank for helping us secure our rights. They're heroes, and direct action remains one of the most important tools we have available, and we've frankly lost sight of the interconnectedness of our struggles with people of color, the poor, women, immigrants, and disabled people since we de-radicalized, but that's a topic for another thread.

How is it politically-smart for our community and movement to attribute our liberation to a historical event where members of our community deliberately inflicted violence on innocent people? The acceptance we've won today wasn't achieved through rioting and vandalism but gradually shifting the Overton window in our favour.

Did you miss the part where the police were running an illegal protection racket, raided the inn, beat and arrested the patrons, and had murdered and sexually assaulted members of the community? They weren't innocent. And even the later moderate and assimilationist gay rights movements that abandoned trans rights and talks of economic justice still trace their history back to this riot. Not every act of violence is unjustified. But again, this is not what this thread is about.

[Kowani]

Sure it is. People have a right to defend themselves against oppression. Our community was being beaten, arrested, harassed, charged protection money, killed, and raped by police. Most of the people who engaged in this were also people of color, and subject to even further systemic racialized violence by the NYPD in the late 60's. They eventually had enough and fought back. Uniting against their oppressors to reclaim a place where they actually could be themselves, they recognized the strength they could have if they banded together. We have them to thank for helping us secure our rights. They're heroes, and direct action remains one of the most important tools we have available, and we've frankly lost sight of the interconnectedness of our struggles with people of color, the poor, women, immigrants, and disabled people since we de-radicalized, but that's a topic for another thread.

for the better for the rest of us.

That you’re a reactionary doesn’t make it better for the rest of us.

[Loben The 2nd]

for the better for the rest of us.

That you’re a reactionary doesn’t make it better for the rest of us.

and that matters to me how?

[Purgatio]

How is it politically-smart for our community and movement to attribute our liberation to a historical event where members of our community deliberately inflicted violence on innocent people? The acceptance we've won today wasn't achieved through rioting and vandalism but gradually shifting the Overton window in our favour.

How do you think we got started? It’s one hundred percent justified to rebel against a system that refuses to change to stop oppressing you

Absolutely not, Stonewall was a massive setback to our liberation as a community, the optics were terrible and newspapers like The Village Voice ran relentlessly-negative articles about the riots, demonising the rioters which wasn't hard given that they killed police officers (not in direct self-defense) and committed so much property damage that it was not hard to turn public opinion against the rioters. And it didn't help that people in the movement threatened to burn down the newspaper's HQ for the negative coverage, which only reinforced the impression of our community as violent antisocial deviants unable to conform to society's laws.

Our liberation was won through persuading mainstream society to our point of view, throwing bottles and smashing buildings did nothing to help us and set our cause back for sure.

[Threlizdun]

Sure it is. People have a right to defend themselves against oppression. Our community was being beaten, arrested, harassed, charged protection money, killed, and raped by police. Most of the people who engaged in this were also people of color, and subject to even further systemic racialized violence by the NYPD in the late 60's. They eventually had enough and fought back. Uniting against their oppressors to reclaim a place where they actually could be themselves, they recognized the strength they could have if they banded together. We have them to thank for helping us secure our rights. They're heroes, and direct action remains one of the most important tools we have available, and we've frankly lost sight of the interconnectedness of our struggles with people of color, the poor, women, immigrants, and disabled people since we de-radicalized, but that's a topic for another thread.

for the better for the rest of us.

We get it, you hate everyone who isn't like you. But just because you hate the rest of humanity doesn't mean the rest of us don't have something to gain by working together.

[Loben The 2nd]

for the better for the rest of us.

We get it, you hate everyone who isn't like you. But just because you hate the rest of humanity doesn't mean the rest of us don't have something to gain by working together.

wrong, but i guess youre used to posting broad assumptions about people who have better things to worry about in their daily lives.

[Threlizdun]

How do you think we got started? It’s one hundred percent justified to rebel against a system that refuses to change to stop oppressing you

Absolutely not, Stonewall was a massive setback to our liberation as a community, the optics were terrible and newspapers like The Village Voice ran relentlessly-negative articles about the riots, demonising the rioters which wasn't hard given that they killed police officers (not in direct self-defense) and committed so much property damage that it was not hard to turn public opinion against the rioters. And it didn't help that people in the movement threatened to burn down the newspaper's HQ for the negative coverage, which only reinforced the impression of our community as violent antisocial deviants unable to conform to society's laws.

Our liberation was won through persuading mainstream society to our point of view, throwing bottles and smashing buildings did nothing to help us and set our cause back for sure.

Pride month is literally a celebration of Stonewall. New York City hosts the biggest pride parade in the world every year on the anniversary of the riot. The moment is considered to be the beginning of the modern LGBTQ rights movement in the US. It is literally the single most celebrated event in our history. No, you are absolutely misinformed if you think the optics of this have hurt us. It's one of our proudest moments. The immediate reaction by the political and social establishment says nothing about the incredible longstanding legacy this had for us.

[Kowani]

That you’re a reactionary doesn’t make it better for the rest of us.

and that matters to me how?

That your views are a dying breed and constantly celebrating the failures of minorities to gain rights just speeds that up.

[Loben The 2nd]

Absolutely not, Stonewall was a massive setback to our liberation as a community, the optics were terrible and newspapers like The Village Voice ran relentlessly-negative articles about the riots, demonising the rioters which wasn't hard given that they killed police officers (not in direct self-defense) and committed so much property damage that it was not hard to turn public opinion against the rioters. And it didn't help that people in the movement threatened to burn down the newspaper's HQ for the negative coverage, which only reinforced the impression of our community as violent antisocial deviants unable to conform to society's laws.

Our liberation was won through persuading mainstream society to our point of view, throwing bottles and smashing buildings did nothing to help us and set our cause back for sure.

Pride month is literally a celebration of Stonewall. New York City hosts the biggest pride parade in the world every year on the anniversary of the riot. The moment is considered to be the beginning of the modern LGBTQ rights movement in the US. It is literally the single most celebrated event in our history. No, you are absolutely misinformed if you think the optics of this have hurt us. It's one of our proudest moments. The immediate reaction by the political and social establishment says nothing about the incredible longstanding legacy this had for us.

what legacy is there?

[Threlizdun]

We get it, you hate everyone who isn't like you. But just because you hate the rest of humanity doesn't mean the rest of us don't have something to gain by working together.

wrong, but i guess youre used to posting broad assumptions about people who have better things to worry about in their daily lives.

I make assumptions when you talk about those as if they are bad things and literally use a totenkompf in your flag.

[Purgatio]

Absolutely not, Stonewall was a massive setback to our liberation as a community, the optics were terrible and newspapers like The Village Voice ran relentlessly-negative articles about the riots, demonising the rioters which wasn't hard given that they killed police officers (not in direct self-defense) and committed so much property damage that it was not hard to turn public opinion against the rioters. And it didn't help that people in the movement threatened to burn down the newspaper's HQ for the negative coverage, which only reinforced the impression of our community as violent antisocial deviants unable to conform to society's laws.

Our liberation was won through persuading mainstream society to our point of view, throwing bottles and smashing buildings did nothing to help us and set our cause back for sure.

Pride month is literally a celebration of Stonewall. New York City hosts the biggest pride parade in the world every year on the anniversary of the riot. The moment is considered to be the beginning of the modern LGBTQ rights movement in the US. It is literally the single most celebrated event in our history. No, you are absolutely misinformed if you think the optics of this have hurt us. It's one of our proudest moments. The immediate reaction by the political and social establishment says nothing about the incredible longstanding legacy this had for us.

Look, we're not a hive mind, as a community we can disagree on what events in LGBTQ history we want to venerate or not, and I'd rather not venerate a violent riot that caused one of Greenwich Village's most liberal newspapers to publish relentlessly-negative coverage of the violence and by any sane metric set back the movement and mainstream acceptance of LGBTQ rights. Maybe it kick-started the modern LGBTQ activist movement but the Stonewall Riots themselves are nothing to be proud of, in my view. And me being a member of the community doesn't automatically mean I have to hold the same opinion about this event in history.

[Loben The 2nd]

and that matters to me how?

That your views are a dying breed and constantly celebrating the failures of minorities to gain rights just speeds that up.

are they?

history is a cycle my friend, in time people on this sun blasted rock will turn on each other, just as they always have and they always will. my goal is to make my last days on earth comfortable enough for me and my immediate family.

[Loben The 2nd]

wrong, but i guess youre used to posting broad assumptions about people who have better things to worry about in their daily lives.

I make assumptions when you talk about those as if they are bad things and literally use a totenkompf in your flag.

think of it as a symbol of a certain kind of pride :^)

[Threlizdun]

Pride month is literally a celebration of Stonewall. New York City hosts the biggest pride parade in the world every year on the anniversary of the riot. The moment is considered to be the beginning of the modern LGBTQ rights movement in the US. It is literally the single most celebrated event in our history. No, you are absolutely misinformed if you think the optics of this have hurt us. It's one of our proudest moments. The immediate reaction by the political and social establishment says nothing about the incredible longstanding legacy this had for us.

Look, we're not a hive mind, as a community we can disagree on what events in LGBTQ history we want to venerate or not, and I'd rather not venerate a violent riot that caused one of Greenwich Village's most liberal newspapers to publish relentlessly-negative coverage of the violence and by any sane metric set back the movement and mainstream acceptance of LGBTQ rights. Maybe it kick-started the modern LGBTQ activist movement but the Stonewall Riots themselves are nothing to be proud of, in my view. And me being a member of the community doesn't automatically mean I have to hold the same opinion about this event in history.

It doesn't, but if you are demanding that our community stop celebrating a moment most of us are immensely proud of, and whose participants went on to form the first major LGBTQ rights organizations, then we're going to have a problem. You can be ashamed of our history of self-defense all you want, but I'm proud of our community's past.

You are objectively wrong in saying this was a setback. It was a rallying cry for queer and trans liberation movements around the world. It is the most famous event in our history. It's legacy is seen favorably. In the end, it was immensely successful, and greatly helped to force us into the spotlight and end the culture of silence about us.

[Threlizdun]

I make assumptions when you talk about those as if they are bad things and literally use a totenkompf in your flag.

think of it as a symbol of a certain kind of pride :^)

Pride of being a Nazi? Your ideology of being the master race of great warriors lead to defeat and the mass suicide of your coward leaders. They failed at everything they set out to do. What a thing to be proud of.

[Kowani]

That your views are a dying breed and constantly celebrating the failures of minorities to gain rights just speeds that up.

are they?

Much like feudalism, yes.

history is a cycle my friend,

Yes and no.

[Purgatio]

Look, we're not a hive mind, as a community we can disagree on what events in LGBTQ history we want to venerate or not, and I'd rather not venerate a violent riot that caused one of Greenwich Village's most liberal newspapers to publish relentlessly-negative coverage of the violence and by any sane metric set back the movement and mainstream acceptance of LGBTQ rights. Maybe it kick-started the modern LGBTQ activist movement but the Stonewall Riots themselves are nothing to be proud of, in my view. And me being a member of the community doesn't automatically mean I have to hold the same opinion about this event in history.

It doesn't, but if you are demanding that our community stop celebrating a moment most of us are immensely proud of, and whose participants went on to form the first major LGBTQ rights organizations, then we're going to have a problem. You can be ashamed of our history of self-defense all you want, but I'm proud of our community's past.

You are objectively wrong in saying this was a setback. It was a rallying cry for queer and trans liberation movements around the world. It is the most famous event in our history. It's legacy is seen favorably. In the end, it was immensely successful, and greatly helped to force us into the spotlight and end the culture of silence about us.

If an extremely-liberal newspaper was driven by the violence to post extremely-negative articles about the Stonewall Riots, that's suggestive of the kind of reaction the ritos likely induced in mainstream society. If a liberal newspaper like The Village Voice was repulsed by the riots, how do you think a centrist-minded individual at the time would have reacted upon hearing about the riots? It's common sense.

[Loben The 2nd]

think of it as a symbol of a certain kind of pride :^)

Pride of being a Nazi? Your ideology of being the master race of great warriors lead to defeat and the mass suicide of your coward leaders. They failed at everything they set out to do. What a thing to be proud of.

no.....The Freikorps anti communist resistance group. :^)

you said it yourself, direct action is necessary.

[Northwest Slobovia]

Their governing part is Hamas, which is Islamic fundamentalist. Maybe some of the civilians are not Islamic fundamentalist, but their government definitely is.

Both the President and Prime Minister are not from Hamas. The Legislative Council, which Hamas controls, doesn't exist anymore.

Oh, how mendacious of you! "Doesn't exist any more", my ass! The truth of the matter is that after Hamas won the 2007 parliamentary elections, Abbas dismissed parliament, and has ruled by decree since. He is a dictator. Period. Whatever the PA constitution says about how the area is governed, it is a dictatorship. Abbas has not stood for election in well over a decade, despite the PA holding (dubious) local elections within the last couple of years. If there's any "occupying power" in the West Bank, it's the PA, holding power despite having lost the mandate of the people.

I'm sure I've made some small mistakes in the details; it's been a while since I looked up the exact events, and frankly I don't care that much. Except that the thread concerns the conduct of the PA, and that their policy has some connection to what the majority thinks. If it does, it's an accident; they don't answer to the majority any more.

For comparison, across the border, there's an annual pride parade in Israel, which even goes through Jerusalem... over the objections of their religious fanatics. You may judge for yourself who's in the right on this issue.

"On this issue" deliberately. If you think I give the Israelis carte blanche, you're mistaken.

[Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia]

Lol. I’d love to see the faces of the gaggle of cockwombles at every Israel/Palestine event with their ‘LGBTQs for Palestine’ banners. Turkeys voting for Christmas.

Hamas only controls the Gaza Strip, not the Palestinian Authority itself, which comprises the bulk of Palestine's territory in the West Bank, and these "LGBTQ for Palestine" supporters generally favour secularist groups such as Fatah, the PFLP, PLO, etc, who do not criminalize homosexuality. Only those from the Muslim Brotherhood actually support Hamas' ideals in the West.

[Takso]

The best place to be if you are a gay Muslim Palestinian in the Middle East is Israel. I would say actually that the best place for anyone to be in the Middle East is Israel. I do not blame Israel for putting up its guard when it is surrounded by nations that are some of the most antisemitic places on Earth. You have a very desperate situation. Israelis have fought tooth and nail not to be exterminated.

Israel has proven it is more than capable at providing a good quality of life for its citizens. The same cannot be said for Palestine. While I wish the two could co-exist peacefully, I do not think Palestinian nationalism is compatible with Israel's survival. As long as Islamic fundamentalism dominates Palestinian politics, I see that country's future as no more than a terror state.

I would recommend that the Palestinian authorities recognize and adhere to human rights, which while Israel might not be perfect, the former is indefensible. There are going to be people here that may disagree with me on this, but as much as I like to be a culturally tolerant person, I cannot accept any culture that oppresses homosexuals and accepts notions of "honor killings". Such practices are barbaric if one's objective is ensuring a quality of life for all. Religious reasons are irrelevant. I frankly don't give a damn what a book says... Killing your own daughter because you are too weak to handle some kind of distorted idea of "shame" is absolutely reprehensible and should not be tolerated anywhere. If you believe that is acceptable... Please don't have any kids of your own and get help. I don't have the energy or patience to tolerate any culture that sees it as okay to murder their own kids, especially for something as mundane as what they do (consensual activity) with other people their age.

We have Muslims where I live too and most of them are peaceful people. However there were some that committed honor killings near where I live and the authorities here came down hard on that fast. Fortunately I didn't hear many voices calling such crackdowns "Islamophobia". Muslims here as a whole are vehemently against extremism, especially as they know such radicalism only furthers hatred against them, which unfortunately exists in many places.

There are legitimate and pressing concerns for human rights abuses in Israel, especially discrimination and Apartheid-like policies from the Israeli authorities, but I find the coverage of the conflict overall places undue weight on Israeli violations of human rights rather than those committed by the State of Palestine. I think the vast majority of people, particularly Westerners... Regardless of political orientation... Would choose Israel over Palestine if they actually had to live in one or the other.

[Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia]

Pride month is literally a celebration of Stonewall. New York City hosts the biggest pride parade in the world every year on the anniversary of the riot. The moment is considered to be the beginning of the modern LGBTQ rights movement in the US. It is literally the single most celebrated event in our history. No, you are absolutely misinformed if you think the optics of this have hurt us. It's one of our proudest moments. The immediate reaction by the political and social establishment says nothing about the incredible longstanding legacy this had for us.

Look, we're not a hive mind, as a community we can disagree on what events in LGBTQ history we want to venerate or not, and I'd rather not venerate a violent riot that caused one of Greenwich Village's most liberal newspapers to publish relentlessly-negative coverage of the violence and by any sane metric set back the movement and mainstream acceptance of LGBTQ rights. Maybe it kick-started the modern LGBTQ activist movement but the Stonewall Riots themselves are nothing to be proud of, in my view. And me being a member of the community doesn't automatically mean I have to hold the same opinion about this event in history.

And you think staying silent and hoping the politicians stop being homophobic would have helped speed up the process on the other hand? You don't win a fight against oppression through hippie pacifism and subservience to your masters. The leaders of the civil rights movement knew that very well, because if the Montgomery bus boycott was never commenced out of fears of negative press coverage, it would have taken way longer to repeal the Jim Crow laws, if ever for that matter.

[Ciputra]

Both the President and Prime Minister are not from Hamas. The Legislative Council, which Hamas controls, doesn't exist anymore.

Oh, how mendacious of you! "Doesn't exist any more", my ass! The truth of the matter is that after Hamas won the 2007 parliamentary elections, Abbas dismissed parliament, and has ruled by decree since. He is a dictator. Period. Whatever the PA constitution says about how the area is governed, it is a dictatorship. Abbas has not stood for election in well over a decade, despite the PA holding (dubious) local elections within the last couple of years. If there's any "occupying power" in the West Bank, it's the PA, holding power despite having lost the mandate of the people.

I'm sure I've made some small mistakes in the details; it's been a while since I looked up the exact events, and frankly I don't care that much. Except that the thread concerns the conduct of the PA, and that their policy has some connection to what the majority thinks. If it does, it's an accident; they don't answer to the majority any more.

For comparison, across the border, there's an annual pride parade in Israel, which even goes through Jerusalem... over the objections of their religious fanatics. You may judge for yourself who's in the right on this issue.

"On this issue" deliberately. If you think I give the Israelis carte blanche, you're mistaken.

Nobody's right. The only question is, Who's left standing later ?