Fascist White Supremacist Rally in Portland Thwarted

[Necroghastia]

The reason that the KKK is considered a singular group is that historically there was a singular group with a singular leader that lead the group. In other words while the current groups that use the KKK name are not connected besides using their rhetoric, at one time the KKK was a single group. The same cannot be said for Antifa.

This doesn't change the fact that people talk about "KKK member" in the present tense (ie referring to a present individual now) and everyone understands what they mean by that. It's the same when someone says "ANTIFA member".

Again, KKK members are members of something. The same cannot necessarily be said about people involved in Antifa.

[Frostnia]

The reason that the KKK is considered a singular group is that historically there was a singular group with a singular leader that lead the group. In other words while the current groups that use the KKK name are not connected besides using their rhetoric, at one time the KKK was a single group. The same cannot be said for Antifa.

But they’re not a single group anymore. This doesn’t alter the point

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

The reason that the KKK is considered a singular group is that historically there was a singular group with a singular leader that lead the group. In other words while the current groups that use the KKK name are not connected besides using their rhetoric, at one time the KKK was a single group. The same cannot be said for Antifa.

This doesn't change the fact that people talk about "KKK member" in the present tense (ie referring to a present individual now) and everyone understands what they mean by that. It's the same when someone says "ANTIFA member".

It’s obvious that your take is not true as quite a few people in this thread have already said that someone can be Antifa in ideology and not belong to any of the groups who stand under the ideology.

[United Capitalist Federations]

So some of them are fascists? Ironic...

No, but some are demsocs, some are ancoms, some are stalinists…

The KKK has a 'larger unified political aim' in a manner no different from ANTIFA, in that both have broad common political and ideologcial goals and aims but no specific unified command directing strategy. And yes, different ANTIFA local chapters or smaller disparate groups do often coordinate with each other online, they show up at rallies together, dressed the same way, armed in the same way, online ANTIFA pages defend each other's points and actions, they have similar catchphrases they promote online like 'bash the fash', and attend similar political events with similar political goals. Again, like the KKK.

I'm just asking you to be consistent with language. If saying "KKK member" is intelligible and cognisable, then "ANTIFA member" is intelligible and comprehensible in the same fashion with the same meaning.

But it’s not. Antifa is, by any actual metric, a movement. A movement consisting of very different people who only have one goal in common-resisting fascism. The KKK and it’s disparate chapters doesn’t have that. While I’m sure there is some political difference between a few individuals, it is, by and large, a unified group with the same aims on multiple fronts.

I'm sure by "resisting communism" you mean "beating anyone who looks like they don't agree with us into submission", right? Because that's what they do. Their "goal" may be ending "fascism" (they probably don't actually know what fascism even is or what it means, ironically) but in reality they just use that end to justify the means of doing whatever the hell they want. I think you'll find many ultra-radicals use a purposefully foggy, impossible, or absurdist goal to justify the means. If you never reach the end, and you function on "The ends justify the means", then you can always do extreme and horrific things and justify it with that ultimately meaningless and unreachable end.

[Telconi]

The reason that the KKK is considered a singular group is that historically there was a singular group with a singular leader that lead the group. In other words while the current groups that use the KKK name are not connected besides using their rhetoric, at one time the KKK was a single group. The same cannot be said for Antifa.

Iunno man, they even had a flag.

[Kowani]

No, but some are demsocs, some are ancoms, some are stalinists…


But it’s not. Antifa is, by any actual metric, a movement. A movement consisting of very different people who only have one goal in common-resisting fascism. The KKK and it’s disparate chapters doesn’t have that. While I’m sure there is some political difference between a few individuals, it is, by and large, a unified group with the same aims on multiple fronts.

I'm sure by "resisting communism" you mean "beating anyone who looks like they don't agree with us into submission", right? Because that's what they do. Their "goal" may be ending "fascism" (they probably don't actually know what fascism even is or what it means, ironically) but in reality they just use that end to justify the means of doing whatever the hell they want. I think you'll find many ultra-radicals use a purposefully foggy, impossible, or absurdist goal to justify the means. If you never reach the end, and you function on "The ends justify the means", then you can always do extreme and horrific things and justify it with that ultimately meaningless and unreachable end.

“Beating anyone the disagree with into submission.”
Have you considered a career on Fox News?

[Purgatio]

This doesn't change the fact that people talk about "KKK member" in the present tense (ie referring to a present individual now) and everyone understands what they mean by that. It's the same when someone says "ANTIFA member".

It’s obvious that your take is not true as quite a few people in this thread have already said that someone can be Antifa in ideology and not belong to any of the groups who stand under the ideology.

But they don't apply that standard consistently because many of them, like Kowani, are happy to acknowledge the existence of a "KKK member" when what you just said applies equally to the KKK

[Greater vakolicci haven]

No, but some are demsocs, some are ancoms, some are stalinists…


But it’s not. Antifa is, by any actual metric, a movement. A movement consisting of very different people who only have one goal in common-resisting fascism. The KKK and it’s disparate chapters doesn’t have that. While I’m sure there is some political difference between a few individuals, it is, by and large, a unified group with the same aims on multiple fronts.

I'm sure by "resisting communism" you mean "beating anyone who looks like they don't agree with us into submission", right? Because that's what they do. Their "goal" may be ending "fascism" (they probably don't actually know what fascism even is or what it means, ironically) but in reality they just use that end to justify the means of doing whatever the hell they want. I think you'll find many ultra-radicals use a purposefully foggy, impossible, or absurdist goal to justify the means. If you never reach the end, and you function on "The ends justify the means", then you can always do extreme and horrific things and justify it with that ultimately meaningless and unreachable end.

I'm an anti-spieradist. I believe in ridding the world of the ideas of Jonas Spierad, which gives me a license to destroy telephone boxes by filling them with dynamite and setting fire to them.

Classic Antifa logic.

[Purgatio]

This doesn't change the fact that people talk about "KKK member" in the present tense (ie referring to a present individual now) and everyone understands what they mean by that. It's the same when someone says "ANTIFA member".

Again, KKK members are members of something. The same cannot necessarily be said about people involved in Antifa.

They aren't though, its already been explained many times that a unified KKK organisation doesn't exist, just disparate smaller groups like the IKA which claim or identify as part of a wider KKK movement with similar logos, iconography and ideology, so if the concept of an "ANTIFA member" is false just because there is no overall unified ANTIFA organisation, the same must consistently be said of the KKK.

All I want is some principled consistency here. Yes, there are ANTIFA members and KKK members. No, there cannot be ANTIFA members or KKK members. It's not that hard.

[Necroghastia]

No, but some are demsocs, some are ancoms, some are stalinists…


But it’s not. Antifa is, by any actual metric, a movement. A movement consisting of very different people who only have one goal in common-resisting fascism. The KKK and it’s disparate chapters doesn’t have that. While I’m sure there is some political difference between a few individuals, it is, by and large, a unified group with the same aims on multiple fronts.

I'm sure by "resisting communism" you mean "beating anyone who looks like they don't agree with us into submission", right? Because that's what they do. Their "goal" may be ending "fascism" (they probably don't actually know what fascism even is or what it means, ironically) but in reality they just use that end to justify the means of doing whatever the hell they want. I think you'll find many ultra-radicals use a purposefully foggy, impossible, or absurdist goal to justify the means. If you never reach the end, and you function on "The ends justify the means", then you can always do extreme and horrific things and justify it with that ultimately meaningless and unreachable end.

I'm sure that's totally a thing the majority of antifa people do. Definitely.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

It’s obvious that your take is not true as quite a few people in this thread have already said that someone can be Antifa in ideology and not belong to any of the groups who stand under the ideology.

But they don't apply that standard consistently because many of them, like Kowani, are happy to acknowledge the existence of a "KKK member" when what you just said applies equally to the KKK

When someone tells you, which is odd they do as my understanding is that they don’t tend to identify themselves, that they’re a member of the KKK, it’s more than likely because they belong to one of the groups that call themselves the KKK.

[Neutraligon]

The reason that the KKK is considered a singular group is that historically there was a singular group with a singular leader that lead the group. In other words while the current groups that use the KKK name are not connected besides using their rhetoric, at one time the KKK was a single group. The same cannot be said for Antifa.

But they’re not a single group anymore. This doesn’t alter the point

They are not, but people do not consider that since historically there was singular group.

[Necroghastia]

Again, KKK members are members of something. The same cannot necessarily be said about people involved in Antifa.

They aren't though, its already been explained many times that a unified KKK organisation doesn't exist, just disparate smaller groups like the IKA which claim or identify as part of a wider KKK movement with similar logos, iconography and ideology, so if the concept of an "ANTIFA member" is false just because there is no overall unified ANTIFA organisation, the same must consistently be said of the KKK.

All I want is some principled consistency here. Yes, there are ANTIFA members and KKK members. No, there cannot be ANTIFA members or KKK members. It's not that hard.

Holy fuck dude, read what I'm fucking saying. It doesn't matter that there's not a unified KKK organization, there's still the smaller groups and one has to be part of one of those to be a KKK member.

The same cannot be said for antifa.

[Purgatio]

But they don't apply that standard consistently because many of them, like Kowani, are happy to acknowledge the existence of a "KKK member" when what you just said applies equally to the KKK

When someone tells you, which is odd they do as my understanding is that they don’t tend to identify themselves, that they’re a member of the KKK, it’s more than likely because they belong to one of the groups that call themselves the KKK.

And likewise, when someone says "ANTIFA member", they are using the word 'member' in the same broader sense, that is to mean "member of a wider political movement made up of smaller disparate autonomous organisations and local chapters like Rose City ANTIFA which are united not by a unified hierarchical command but more informal channels of communication, similar logo, iconography, coordination of political strategy, showing up at the same political events at the same times and locations with similar dress, chants and strategies, preaching a similar common political ideology".

When people say either "KKK member" or "ANTIFA member" this is what they mean. So you have to be consistent. Either you think both are misnomers or neither are misnomers, but it can be either-or.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

They aren't though, its already been explained many times that a unified KKK organisation doesn't exist, just disparate smaller groups like the IKA which claim or identify as part of a wider KKK movement with similar logos, iconography and ideology, so if the concept of an "ANTIFA member" is false just because there is no overall unified ANTIFA organisation, the same must consistently be said of the KKK.

All I want is some principled consistency here. Yes, there are ANTIFA members and KKK members. No, there cannot be ANTIFA members or KKK members. It's not that hard.

Holy fuck dude, read what I'm fucking saying. It doesn't matter that there's not a unified KKK organization, there's still the smaller groups and one has to be part of one of those to be a KKK member.

The same cannot be said for antifa.

Then there’s this. Antifa is not a group or organization. It’s an ideology and there are groups who claim it.

[Purgatio]

They aren't though, its already been explained many times that a unified KKK organisation doesn't exist, just disparate smaller groups like the IKA which claim or identify as part of a wider KKK movement with similar logos, iconography and ideology, so if the concept of an "ANTIFA member" is false just because there is no overall unified ANTIFA organisation, the same must consistently be said of the KKK.

All I want is some principled consistency here. Yes, there are ANTIFA members and KKK members. No, there cannot be ANTIFA members or KKK members. It's not that hard.

Holy fuck dude, read what I'm fucking saying. It doesn't matter that there's not a unified KKK organization, there's still the smaller groups and one has to be part of one of those to be a KKK member.

The same cannot be said for antifa.

Why don't you actually read what I'm saying? There are individual and smaller ANTIFA groups like Rose City ANTIFA or ARA Network with a degree of coordination and communication with other ANTIFA groups around the country, a similar ideology and strategy, coordinated attendance at political rallies, similar to the different KKK organisations.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

When someone tells you, which is odd they do as my understanding is that they don’t tend to identify themselves, that they’re a member of the KKK, it’s more than likely because they belong to one of the groups that call themselves the KKK.

And likewise, when someone says "ANTIFA member", they are using the word 'member' in the same broader sense, that is to mean "member of a wider political movement made up of smaller disparate autonomous organisations and local chapters like Rose City ANTIFA which are united not by a unified hierarchical command but more informal channels of communication, similar logo, iconography, coordination of political strategy, showing up at the same political events at the same times and locations with similar dress, chants and strategies, preaching a similar common political ideology".

When people say either "KKK member" or "ANTIFA member" this is what they mean. So you have to be consistent. Either you think both are misnomers or neither are misnomers, but it can be either-or.

It’s not the same, ffs and people have explained why several times. You can say you’re Antifa and not belong to a group or chapter. While people who say they’re KKK are members of one of the groups. What’s not an organization is White Supremacy, same as Antifa.

Gods, one would think this is fucking obvious.

[Purgatio]

Holy fuck dude, read what I'm fucking saying. It doesn't matter that there's not a unified KKK organization, there's still the smaller groups and one has to be part of one of those to be a KKK member.

The same cannot be said for antifa.

Then there’s this. Antifa is not a group or organization. It’s an ideology and there are groups who claim it.

Just like the KKK.

[Purgatio]

And likewise, when someone says "ANTIFA member", they are using the word 'member' in the same broader sense, that is to mean "member of a wider political movement made up of smaller disparate autonomous organisations and local chapters like Rose City ANTIFA which are united not by a unified hierarchical command but more informal channels of communication, similar logo, iconography, coordination of political strategy, showing up at the same political events at the same times and locations with similar dress, chants and strategies, preaching a similar common political ideology".

When people say either "KKK member" or "ANTIFA member" this is what they mean. So you have to be consistent. Either you think both are misnomers or neither are misnomers, but it can be either-or.

It’s not the same, ffs and people have explained why several times. You can say you’re Antifa and not belong to a group or chapter. While people who say they’re KKK are members of one of the groups. What’s not an organization is White Supremacy, same as Antifa.

Gods, one would think this is fucking obvious.

You're going by what people say? Then in a similar vein why can't a person say they identify as a KKK member without joining the IKA or whatever? How is that any different from someone saying they are an ANTIFA member and not a member of say Rose City ANTIFA? You can't have it both ways. I don't understand this incessant need to apply two very different standards to two organisations.

[Kowani]

Then there’s this. Antifa is not a group or organization. It’s an ideology and there are groups who claim it.

Just like the KKK.

White Supremacy is an ideology. The KKK is not.

[Necroghastia]

Holy fuck dude, read what I'm fucking saying. It doesn't matter that there's not a unified KKK organization, there's still the smaller groups and one has to be part of one of those to be a KKK member.

The same cannot be said for antifa.

Why don't you actually read what I'm saying? There are individual and smaller ANTIFA groups like Rose City ANTIFA or ARA Network with a degree of coordination and communication with other ANTIFA groups around the country, a similar ideology and strategy, coordinated attendance at political rallies, similar to the different KKK organisations.

And one doesn't have to be a part of those to be antifa.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

It’s not the same, ffs and people have explained why several times. You can say you’re Antifa and not belong to a group or chapter. While people who say they’re KKK are members of one of the groups. What’s not an organization is White Supremacy, same as Antifa.

Gods, one would think this is fucking obvious.

You're going by what people say? Then in a similar vein why can't a person say they identify as a KKK member without joining the IKA or whatever? How is that any different from someone saying they are an ANTIFA member and not a member of say Rose City ANTIFA? You can't have it both ways. I don't understand this incessant need to apply two very different standards to two organisations.

Because when they say they’re a KKK member is because they belong to one of the groups. KKK is not the ideology. White Supremacy is. Jesus H. Christ.

[Purgatio]

Just like the KKK.

White Supremacy is an ideology. The KKK is not.

The KKK has a wider ideology behind it, and it also has individual organisations making up that movement. Just like ANTIFA.

[Purgatio]

You're going by what people say? Then in a similar vein why can't a person say they identify as a KKK member without joining the IKA or whatever? How is that any different from someone saying they are an ANTIFA member and not a member of say Rose City ANTIFA? You can't have it both ways. I don't understand this incessant need to apply two very different standards to two organisations.

Because when they say they’re a KKK member is because they belong to one of the groups. KKK is not the ideology. White Supremacy is. Jesus H. Christ.

Most of the time, yes, but strictly-speaking it is also possible to claim to identify with the KKK and not be a member of the IKA or other such groups. Similarly, when someone calls themselves an ANTIFA member, it could just be a matter of ideological identification, or actual membership in Rose City ANTIFA or ARA Network or other such groups.

[Purgatio]

Why don't you actually read what I'm saying? There are individual and smaller ANTIFA groups like Rose City ANTIFA or ARA Network with a degree of coordination and communication with other ANTIFA groups around the country, a similar ideology and strategy, coordinated attendance at political rallies, similar to the different KKK organisations.

And one doesn't have to be a part of those to be antifa.

Just like the KKK. If someone says they're in the KKK it could mean they identify with the group's ideology or that they are formally a member of groups like the IKA. All I'm asking for is consistency as opposed to the double standards I'm seeing so far.