LWDT 8: Hitting the Marx

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

Why though?

Because the anarchist is whiny and naive. Also, the tankie is presented as actually being concerned with what comes next, tilling the fields, putting things together.

(not that this is in any way true of reality whatsoever, because tankies are incapable of succeeding in their endeavors to bring about socialism)

I find naivety more likable than jadedness, though the anarchist does have a whiny, annoying voice.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

Universal? The mistake made by the Anglo-American architects of the Iraq War was that, as soon as Western troops arrived, they would be greeted by garlands of flowers. Obviously, the result of that occupation was very different.

To me, liberty is communism. To most people in my country, the U.S., that is heresy. If I pursue liberty, that means I oppose capitalism and all that it stands for.

So, what is universal?

Hot take

Freedom doesn't exist while state's can effectively rule. So long as a government can change or do anything that it want's ( which practically all of them can ), than what we call freedom's are actually only just privileges.

Which is why we need a state which cannot do anything it wants. We need checks and balances, we need a constitution, we need oversight. In liberal democracy, we theoretically have that, but not as much as we should in practice.

[Nazariles]

Alright. So have we come to the end of this mediocre year of 2019 and also this politically bipolar decade of the 2010s. How has the 2010s been for you all LWDT`ers? How would you all sum up this decade in one sentence? Has it been a glorious or a frustrating decade?

I can imagine that in the 2010s, we watched how the centre-left was brutally knocked down in Europe by right-wing populists, but also left-wing populists (cough Melenchon cough). The US also witnessed the rise of the grassroots socialist movement, headed mainly by disillusioned Millennials who saw that the capitalist system never was a benefit for them. We witnessed a "delegitimization" of capitalism, as numerous intellectuals and politicians departed from the Fukuyamist principle of capitalism being the only way forward. Suddenly, a large number of people started to read Jacobin and join trade unions (trade unions enjoyed a spike in popularity).

Even though The Left never saw large-scale victories, the seeds for a massive left-wing wave was laid in the US, with the Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Bernie Sanders.

I cannot wait until the historians begin to assess the 2010s in a matter of 15-20 years. Maybe people will have a different perception of this decade than now?

And what do you all expect for the 2020s? (Just politics, culture and technology. Not your private life)

[Ostroeuropa]

Alright. So have we come to the end of this mediocre year of 2019 and also this politically bipolar decade of the 2010s. How has the 2010s been for you all LWDT`ers? How would you all sum up this decade in one sentence? Has it been a glorious or a frustrating decade?

I can imagine that in the 2010s, we watched how the centre-left was brutally knocked down in Europe by right-wing populists, but also left-wing populists (cough Melenchon cough). The US also witnessed the rise of the grassroots socialist movement, headed mainly by disillusioned Millennials who saw that the capitalist system never was a benefit for them. We witnessed a "delegitimization" of capitalism, as numerous intellectuals and politicians departed from the Fukuyamist principle of capitalism being the only way forward. Suddenly, a large number of people started to read Jacobin and join trade unions (trade unions enjoyed a spike in popularity).

Even though The Left never saw large-scale victories, the seeds for a massive left-wing wave was laid in the US, with the Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Bernie Sanders.

I cannot wait until the historians begin to assess the 2010s in a matter of 15-20 years. Maybe people will have a different perception of this decade than now?

And what do you all expect for the 2020s? (Just politics, culture and technology. Not your private life)

An economic crash in the 2020s will bring about the final downfall of the liberal center, forcing a conflict between right wing populism and the left wing across the globe which the right wing will in all likelihood win due to the unelectability of the left wing at this time for their stances on social and cultural issues.

[Byzconia]

IMO, left unity needs to be established on a libertarian, not an authoritarian, basis.

Therein lies the problem. Both authoritarian leftists and libertarian leftists only want left-unity on their terms.

Given that authoritarianism and libertarianism are mutually exclusive, yes.

[Cekoviu]

And what do you all expect for the 2020s? (Just politics, culture and technology. Not your private life)

Major governments continuing to drag their feet on environmental issues, no improvement for workers, China continuing to wage war on the concept of human rights, and four more years of Trump.

[Liriena]

The 2010s ended up being a wondeful decade for me personally, at least in the second half. Politically, it's been mostly a huge snowball of despair at how irresponsibility and cruelty keep winning so many battles.

My expectations for the 2020s are cautious at best.

[Page]

Alright. So have we come to the end of this mediocre year of 2019 and also this politically bipolar decade of the 2010s. How has the 2010s been for you all LWDT`ers? How would you all sum up this decade in one sentence? Has it been a glorious or a frustrating decade?

I can imagine that in the 2010s, we watched how the centre-left was brutally knocked down in Europe by right-wing populists, but also left-wing populists (cough Melenchon cough). The US also witnessed the rise of the grassroots socialist movement, headed mainly by disillusioned Millennials who saw that the capitalist system never was a benefit for them. We witnessed a "delegitimization" of capitalism, as numerous intellectuals and politicians departed from the Fukuyamist principle of capitalism being the only way forward. Suddenly, a large number of people started to read Jacobin and join trade unions (trade unions enjoyed a spike in popularity).

Even though The Left never saw large-scale victories, the seeds for a massive left-wing wave was laid in the US, with the Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Bernie Sanders.

I cannot wait until the historians begin to assess the 2010s in a matter of 15-20 years. Maybe people will have a different perception of this decade than now?

And what do you all expect for the 2020s? (Just politics, culture and technology. Not your private life)

An economic crash in the 2020s will bring about the final downfall of the liberal center, forcing a conflict between right wing populism and the left wing across the globe which the right wing will in all likelihood win due to the unelectability of the left wing at this time for their stances on social and cultural issues.

I suspect many voters in your country are going to regret not voting for the left because of social issues when the Tories have replaced your NHS with an American-esque private health care system and more people die in burning towers because of austerity.

[Byzconia]

Alright. So have we come to the end of this mediocre year of 2019 and also this politically bipolar decade of the 2010s. How has the 2010s been for you all LWDT`ers? How would you all sum up this decade in one sentence? Has it been a glorious or a frustrating decade?

Shit.

I can imagine that in the 2010s, we watched how the centre-left was brutally knocked down in Europe by right-wing populists, but also left-wing populists (cough Melenchon cough). The US also witnessed the rise of the grassroots socialist movement, headed mainly by disillusioned Millennials who saw that the capitalist system never was a benefit for them. We witnessed a "delegitimization" of capitalism, as numerous intellectuals and politicians departed from the Fukuyamist principle of capitalism being the only way forward. Suddenly, a large number of people started to read Jacobin and join trade unions (trade unions enjoyed a spike in popularity).

Even though The Left never saw large-scale victories, the seeds for a massive left-wing wave was laid in the US, with the Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Bernie Sanders.

I cannot wait until the historians begin to assess the 2010s in a matter of 15-20 years. Maybe people will have a different perception of this decade than now?

Given the rapid advance of climate change, I'm fairly certain historians in 15-20 years will all be ragging on what terrible pieces of shit we were for condemning the human species to extinction.

And what do you all expect for the 2020s? (Just politics, culture and technology. Not your private life)

Politics will continue to polarize until, inevitably, some far-right movement gets into power and enacts their ethnic cleansing schemes (I don't think they'd resort to genocide right off the bat, but would probably hold onto it as a last resort). And then the "centrists" that helped them get into power will say, "Oh, whoa, we never expected that to happen " and then go back to counting their money.

The economy's going to continue being shit and lower class people will become more and more broke as monetary circulation continues to strangulate and whither, to the point where being able to afford food will be considered a "privilege" (I'm being semi-facetious on that one, but it does demonstrate my pessimism).

Culturally, the de facto culture war will continue as all of the old, dying shits will continue to (successfully) pull us back to the dark ages on their way out the door and millennial and Gen Z will be too broke and/or lazy to stop it.

Technologically, our governments will continue to find technologically-advanced ways to spy on us and strip our rights until they finally figure out mind-reading technology so they can finally punish us for thoughtcrime, as tech companies will continue to sell us all out to the highest bidder.

Also, the current horizontal monopolization in the American economy will continue until the entire country is ruled by our mighty Disney-Google-Amazon megacorp overlord.

TL;DR we're all fucked.

[North German Realm]

An economic crash in the 2020s will bring about the final downfall of the liberal center, forcing a conflict between right wing populism and the left wing across the globe which the right wing will in all likelihood win due to the unelectability of the left wing at this time for their stances on social and cultural issues.

I suspect many voters in your country are going to regret not voting for the left because of social issues when the Tories have replaced your NHS with an American-esque private health care system and more people die in burning towers because of austerity.

Honestly as long as it doesn't start another world war, I will just look at them, point and laugh. If they're so dumb to literally vote against their own interests just to see some other group lose their rights (or to "own the libs", as it were), they deserve the worst that can possibly happen.

[Crysuko]

An economic crash in the 2020s will bring about the final downfall of the liberal center, forcing a conflict between right wing populism and the left wing across the globe which the right wing will in all likelihood win due to the unelectability of the left wing at this time for their stances on social and cultural issues.

I suspect many voters in your country are going to regret not voting for the left because of social issues when the Tories have replaced your NHS with an American-esque private health care system and more people die in burning towers because of austerity.

the most the british public will muster is some angry reacts and maybe a petition or 2

[Cekoviu]

I suspect many voters in your country are going to regret not voting for the left because of social issues when the Tories have replaced your NHS with an American-esque private health care system and more people die in burning towers because of austerity.

the most the british public will muster is some angry reacts and maybe a petition or 2

That's mad! They're already being devastating with the angry reacts, there's no way a petition could pop up!

[Crysuko]

the most the british public will muster is some angry reacts and maybe a petition or 2

That's mad! They're already being devastating with the angry reacts, there's no way a petition could pop up!

there's already one to block the IDS knighting, truly we're on the barricades now.

[Byzconia]

I suspect many voters in your country are going to regret not voting for the left because of social issues when the Tories have replaced your NHS with an American-esque private health care system and more people die in burning towers because of austerity.

Honestly as long as it doesn't start another world war, I will just look at them, point and laugh. If they're so dumb to literally vote against their own interests just to see some other group lose their rights (or to "own the libs", as it were), they deserve the worst that can possibly happen.

If Britain were actually democratic, I'd agree with that logic, but it isn't. FPTP is literally the most undemocratic electoral system you can have (excluding fake elections in one-party states). It's only slightly better than demarchy (aka drawing lots) for actually giving anyone what they want.

That said, maybe they still would've voted for Boris in another system and do deserve what they get, but I don't know if we have enough evidence to make that claim.

[Nuroblav]

Honestly as long as it doesn't start another world war, I will just look at them, point and laugh. If they're so dumb to literally vote against their own interests just to see some other group lose their rights (or to "own the libs", as it were), they deserve the worst that can possibly happen.

If Britain were actually democratic, I'd agree with that logic, but it isn't. FPTP is literally the most undemocratic electoral system you can have (excluding fake elections in one-party states). It's only slightly better than demarchy (aka drawing lots) for actually giving anyone what they want.

That said, maybe they still would've voted for Boris in another system and do deserve what they get, but I don't know if we have enough evidence to make that claim.

Yeah the FPTP system is rather shit. Here in the UK we have a huge case of misrepresentation because of the system. A youtuber called CGP Grey has done a good video on why it's a shit system (using the 2015 elections).

[Peoples Continental Union]

Hello, comrades.

[Genivaria]

Hello, comrades.

"SOCIALISM WITH AMERICAN CHARACTERISTICS"
I like that.

[Ostroeuropa]

An economic crash in the 2020s will bring about the final downfall of the liberal center, forcing a conflict between right wing populism and the left wing across the globe which the right wing will in all likelihood win due to the unelectability of the left wing at this time for their stances on social and cultural issues.

I suspect many voters in your country are going to regret not voting for the left because of social issues when the Tories have replaced your NHS with an American-esque private health care system and more people die in burning towers because of austerity.

They're not going to do that, because Kierkegaard's madmen will always be a minority of the population, and their pronouncements are anathema to the rest of us.

(Kierkegaard tells the story of an inmate who escapes an asylum, and in order to escape detection by the sane members of the community, resolves only to speak in materialistic terms of things he can prove exists. Needless to say, he is soon recognized as insane, and returned to the Asylum.).

Say what you will about the right, they have not yet fully embraced Randian Kierkegaardism and "Rational self-interest" like the left wing has with their materialistic rejection of everything that progressives dislike in favor of "Rational collective interest". The progressive left, and to a greater extent, Marxists, are the left wing equivalent of Randian Objectivists with their rejection of irrational totems of social cohesion. They are the political equivalent of Kierkegaards madmen, and most people despise all forms of that for good reason.

You could test the madman by asking him what he thinks about things like Santa Claus and him responding by *missing the point* and delivering a speech on how he doesn't exist and so on. When enough of those pieces of evidence pile up you can conclude; "Oh, he's mad.". With the progs and Randians its similar, but more of a "Oh, you're completely detatched from ordinary human experience and unelectable.". Boris at least understands nationalism enough to act it out, even if he does not necessarily truly believe it or act on it, and that's all people require.

People are not entirely rational, they do not want to be, and nor should they be.

Johnson is also more of a centre-right liberal wearing the colors of Nationalism. He's not going to privatize the NHS.

Labour is also showing signs of limited self-awareness on the issue and acknowledging the need for a nationalist candidate. Perhaps that alone will be enough, or perhaps the public is so sick of the progressives that they will demand further concessions on issues like immigration, multiculturalism, feminism, and so on.

Beyond that Page, we had the BNP running far left of Labour for decades during the Blair years, and people don't regret not ignoring their social platform to vote for them either, nor will they. It's a red line issue for many people. They don't like racists or sexists and won't vote for them when they conclude a party has a racist or sexist agenda.

[Peoples Continental Union]

Hello, comrades.

"SOCIALISM WITH AMERICAN CHARACTERISTICS"
I like that.

Do you think the modern PRC is socialist?
My take is that Deng had some good ideas, as loosening economic policy was indeed necessary to secure China's position as a world power. But apparently it seems as if Xi Jinping wishes to not only make the pre-existing reforms permanent, he also wants to transition China even further towards state capitalism, AKA fascism.

What are your thoughts on this?

[Peoples Continental Union]

An economic crash in the 2020s will bring about the final downfall of the liberal center, forcing a conflict between right wing populism and the left wing across the globe which the right wing will in all likelihood win due to the unelectability of the left wing at this time for their stances on social and cultural issues.

There's always Blue Labour, but they're just one movement in one country.

[Genivaria]

"SOCIALISM WITH AMERICAN CHARACTERISTICS"
I like that.

Do you think the modern PRC is socialist?
My take is that Deng had some good ideas, as loosening economic policy was indeed necessary to secure China's position as a world power. But apparently it seems as if Xi Jinping wishes to not only make the pre-existing reforms permanent, he also wants to transition China even further towards state capitalism, AKA fascism.

What are your thoughts on this?

The PRC is a totalitarian state with elements of socialism and fascism, regardless it must be destroyed.

[Byzconia]

"SOCIALISM WITH AMERICAN CHARACTERISTICS"
I like that.

Do you think the modern PRC is socialist?
My take is that Deng had some good ideas, as loosening economic policy was indeed necessary to secure China's position as a world power. But apparently it seems as if Xi Jinping wishes to not only make the pre-existing reforms permanent, he also wants to transition China even further towards state capitalism, AKA fascism.

What are your thoughts on this?

No, they're not socialist. The means of production are controlled by the state, not the workers, therefore they're not socialist.

And just FYI, state capitalism =/= fascism. The latter tends to be more corporatist, which isn't the same as state capitalism.

[Peoples Continental Union]

Do you think the modern PRC is socialist?
My take is that Deng had some good ideas, as loosening economic policy was indeed necessary to secure China's position as a world power. But apparently it seems as if Xi Jinping wishes to not only make the pre-existing reforms permanent, he also wants to transition China even further towards state capitalism, AKA fascism.

What are your thoughts on this?

The PRC is a totalitarian state with elements of socialism and fascism, regardless it must be destroyed.

I'd happen to agree with you.

This probably won't happen, but I do hope that the events in Hong Kong inspire Chinese citizens to reignite the flame of socialism and overthrow the current fascist government.

[Genivaria]

The PRC is a totalitarian state with elements of socialism and fascism, regardless it must be destroyed.

I'd happen to agree with you.

This probably won't happen, but I do hope that the events in Hong Kong inspire Chinese citizens to reignite the flame of socialism and overthrow the current fascist government.

I'd just like China united under the Republic of China system, as unlikely as that would be.

[Peoples Continental Union]

I'd happen to agree with you.

This probably won't happen, but I do hope that the events in Hong Kong inspire Chinese citizens to reignite the flame of socialism and overthrow the current fascist government.

I'd just like China united under the Republic of China system, as unlikely as that would be.

Perhaps a return to the original vision of Dr. Sun Yat Sen would be the better choice, as the ROC did spend the first half of its existence as a military dictatorship.