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LWDT 8: Hitting the Marx

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Under which leaders (if any) was the Soviet Union socialist?

Lenin (1918-1924)
411
34%
Stalin (1924-1953)
223
19%
Khrushchev (1953-1964)
149
12%
Brezhnev (1964-1982)
125
10%
Gorbachev (1985-1991)
126
10%
Never
167
14%
 
Total votes : 1201

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North German Realm
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Founded: Jan 27, 2019
Left-Leaning College State

Postby North German Realm » Sat Dec 21, 2019 12:39 pm

Totenborg wrote:
Proctopeo wrote:They exist, sure, but they don't have anything to do with the so-called pipeline.


Yeah; none of the three were or are libertarians, any type, and neither Jones nor Trump are fascist. Savage maybe, but I don't think he's close enough.

Hey, I don't know if you've been watching the news, but I have some bad news about Trump...

He's a right-nationalist corrupt politician, but while fascist dictators are also right-wing and nationalist (at least imo, though there are many who would argue that fascism is in fact closer to left -in many scenarios it is), most right-nationalist dictators aren't fascist.
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Chernoslavia
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Posts: 9766
Founded: Jun 13, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Chernoslavia » Sat Dec 21, 2019 12:40 pm

Byzconia wrote:
Chernoslavia wrote:Your link has no citations to any actual credible source, it even gets sexism and homophobia mixed in. It's garbage. Also reread my post, I edit it.

You do realize that actual fascist regimes were both sexist and homophobic, right? Gay people were even targeted for extermination in the Holocaust.

I should also point your sig quotes a man who was an active supporter of Francisco Franco and the concept of the White Terror. Not that he didn't have good critiques of the USSR, but to jump over to supporting Catholic pseudo-fascism ain't the correct response.


I mean his source has homophobia lumped in with sexism. He acts like this articles definition of fascism is absolute.

And citation on this and how does it mean that I support fascism.
What would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive? Or if during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand? The Organs would quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!

- Alexander Solzhenitsyn

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Chernoslavia
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Founded: Jun 13, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Chernoslavia » Sat Dec 21, 2019 12:42 pm

North German Realm wrote:
Totenborg wrote:Hey, I don't know if you've been watching the news, but I have some bad news about Trump...

He's a right-nationalist corrupt politician, but while fascist dictators are also right-wing and nationalist (at least imo, though there are many who would argue that fascism is in fact closer to left -in many scenarios it is), most right-nationalist dictators aren't fascist.


And he isn't even a dictator. Which all fascist regimes have.
What would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive? Or if during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand? The Organs would quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!

- Alexander Solzhenitsyn

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Chernoslavia
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Posts: 9766
Founded: Jun 13, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Chernoslavia » Sat Dec 21, 2019 12:43 pm

Totenborg wrote:
Chernoslavia wrote:
You should take your own advice.

I'm not the one misunderstanding source content here.


Not buying you or the link's bullshit definition of fascism isn't misunderstanding a source.
Last edited by Chernoslavia on Sat Dec 21, 2019 12:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive? Or if during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand? The Organs would quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!

- Alexander Solzhenitsyn

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Totenborg
Diplomat
 
Posts: 914
Founded: Mar 23, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Totenborg » Sat Dec 21, 2019 12:45 pm

Chernoslavia wrote:
North German Realm wrote:He's a right-nationalist corrupt politician, but while fascist dictators are also right-wing and nationalist (at least imo, though there are many who would argue that fascism is in fact closer to left -in many scenarios it is), most right-nationalist dictators aren't fascist.


And he isn't even a dictator. Which all fascist regimes have.

He's working on it. The GOP is well on the way toward making thar dream a reality, too, whether or not its members are fascists themselves.
Rabid anti-fascist.
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Chernoslavia
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Founded: Jun 13, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Chernoslavia » Sat Dec 21, 2019 12:45 pm

Totenborg wrote:
Chernoslavia wrote:
And he isn't even a dictator. Which all fascist regimes have.

He's working on it. The GOP is well on the way toward making thar dream a reality, too, whether or not its members are fascists themselves.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UD1-oVJlU4M
Last edited by Chernoslavia on Sat Dec 21, 2019 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive? Or if during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand? The Organs would quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!

- Alexander Solzhenitsyn

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Torrocca
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Posts: 26914
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Sat Dec 21, 2019 12:48 pm

It's always refreshing to see self-proclaimed right-wing "libertarians" twist themselves into a pretzel defending Fascism by yelling "DEFINITION BAD!" at analyses of Fascism as practiced with nary an iota of substantial argumentation made to reinforce that incessant yelling.
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Totenborg
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Posts: 914
Founded: Mar 23, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Totenborg » Sat Dec 21, 2019 12:48 pm

Chernoslavia wrote:
Totenborg wrote:I'm not the one misunderstanding source content here.


Not buying your bullshit definition of fascism isn't misunderstanding a source.

Whatever. It's not like anything you or I could say could change the other's mind. That being said, we'll see how history regards things.
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Chernoslavia
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Founded: Jun 13, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Chernoslavia » Sat Dec 21, 2019 12:49 pm

Totenborg wrote:
Chernoslavia wrote:
Not buying your bullshit definition of fascism isn't misunderstanding a source.

Whatever. It's not like anything you or I could say could change the other's mind. That being said, we'll see how history regards things.


I'll at least agree on that.
What would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive? Or if during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand? The Organs would quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!

- Alexander Solzhenitsyn

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Duvniask
Senator
 
Posts: 4874
Founded: Aug 30, 2012
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Duvniask » Sat Dec 21, 2019 12:51 pm

Chernoslavia wrote:I mean his source has homophobia lumped in with sexism..

If you stop and think about it, it doesn't really seem far-fetched that wanting to enforce traditional gender roles would lead to homophobia. Fascists emphasize (what they consider to be) traditional gender roles and view anything outside of that as "degenerate". Part of that means you have to be a man that likes women, and vice versa. So, if you, as a man, don't want to marry a woman and have children for the benefit of the state; congrats you're considered a degenerate who wants to destroy the family structure or something.
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Chernoslavia
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Founded: Jun 13, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Chernoslavia » Sat Dec 21, 2019 12:54 pm

Duvniask wrote:
Chernoslavia wrote:I mean his source has homophobia lumped in with sexism..

If you stop and think about it, it doesn't really seem far-fetched that wanting to enforce traditional gender roles would lead to homophobia. Fascists emphasize (what they consider to be) traditional gender roles and view anything outside of that as "degenerate". Part of that means you have to be a man that likes women, and vice versa. So, if you, as a man, don't want to marry a woman and have children for the benefit of the state; congrats you're considered a degenerate who wants to destroy the family structure or something.


Right, but people can have those kinds of opinions without necessarily being fascists.
Last edited by Chernoslavia on Sat Dec 21, 2019 12:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive? Or if during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand? The Organs would quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!

- Alexander Solzhenitsyn

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Totenborg
Diplomat
 
Posts: 914
Founded: Mar 23, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Totenborg » Sat Dec 21, 2019 1:00 pm

Chernoslavia wrote:
Duvniask wrote:If you stop and think about it, it doesn't really seem far-fetched that wanting to enforce traditional gender roles would lead to homophobia. Fascists emphasize (what they consider to be) traditional gender roles and view anything outside of that as "degenerate". Part of that means you have to be a man that likes women, and vice versa. So, if you, as a man, don't want to marry a woman and have children for the benefit of the state; congrats you're considered a degenerate who wants to destroy the family structure or something.


Right, but people can have those kinds of opinions without necessarily being fascists.

Of course they can. One can be an asshole without being a fascist.
Rabid anti-fascist.
Existential nihilist.
Lifer metalhead.
Unrepentant fan of birds.

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Chernoslavia
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Founded: Jun 13, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Chernoslavia » Sat Dec 21, 2019 1:02 pm

Totenborg wrote:
Chernoslavia wrote:
Right, but people can have those kinds of opinions without necessarily being fascists.

Of course they can. One can be an asshole without being a fascist.


Which is why Trump isn't fascist, just another authoritarian hack.
What would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive? Or if during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand? The Organs would quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!

- Alexander Solzhenitsyn

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Byzconia
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1515
Founded: Nov 01, 2018
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Byzconia » Sat Dec 21, 2019 1:13 pm

Chernoslavia wrote:I mean his source has homophobia lumped in with sexism. He acts like this articles definition of fascism is absolute.

The two often go hand-in-hand, along with other forms of bigotry like racism (if one is willing to accept that a certain group of people is superior/preferable to others by birth, it stands to reason they'll be accepting of the idea in regards to other groups as well). And the problem with defining Fascism as an ideology is that it explicitly has no set beliefs. Mussolini himself advocated for political opportunism in The Doctrine of Fascism and basically said that Fascists should lie about what they believe until they're actually in office. There's also a night-and-day stark difference between the contents of the Fascist Manifesto and the practice of Italian Fascism (so much so that they're almost complete opposites in most regards). I personally support Umberto Eco's definition laid out in Ur-Fascism, since he tries to base it on common traits of European fascist movements rather than a set "ideal" of what constitutes "fascism." That said, the fact that there are so many different definitions on that one page should give you some idea of the trouble political scientists and historians face of trying to categorize fascism.

And citation on this

Huh, I couldn't find one. I must've been wrong, I guess it was probably a hold-over from my Marxist days that I never had cause to reevaluate until now. As you were.

and how does it mean that I support fascism.

For the record, I never said you were a fascist/supported fascism. I don't know enough about you to make such a claim.
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Northern Davincia
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16960
Founded: Jun 10, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Northern Davincia » Sat Dec 21, 2019 7:23 pm

Byzconia wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:You said Pinochet killed/tortured the majority of the opposition. If the opposition is half the country, the victim count should be much higher. The 1980 plebiscite put a term on Pinochet's power until the one in 1988 fully restored democracy.

You...do understand that hyperbole is a thing, right? You didn't think those were meant to be actual estimates, did you?

The long-term economic good came from Pinochet's reforms.

[Citation needed]

A citation for your viewing pleasure.
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Happpy
Attaché
 
Posts: 83
Founded: Dec 17, 2019
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Happpy » Sat Dec 21, 2019 7:27 pm

Chernoslavia wrote:
Totenborg wrote:Of course they can. One can be an asshole without being a fascist.


Which is why Trump isn't fascist, just another authoritarian hack.

Well if it walls like a duck, and talks like a duck, it's clearly an octopus.

At least according to your logic.

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Albrenia
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Posts: 16243
Founded: Aug 18, 2017
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Albrenia » Sat Dec 21, 2019 7:32 pm

Trump's outlook does seem to have a lot of the hallmarks of fascism, but I don't think he is a fascist.

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Northern Davincia
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Founded: Jun 10, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Northern Davincia » Sat Dec 21, 2019 7:33 pm

Happpy wrote:
Chernoslavia wrote:
Which is why Trump isn't fascist, just another authoritarian hack.

Well if it walls like a duck, and talks like a duck, it's clearly an octopus.

At least according to your logic.

It's more akin to a goose being separate from a duck.
Hoppean Libertarian, Acolyte of von Mises, Protector of Our Sacred Liberties
Economic Left/Right: 9.75
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Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."

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Gormwood
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Founded: Mar 25, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Gormwood » Sat Dec 21, 2019 7:40 pm

Albrenia wrote:Trump's outlook does seem to have a lot of the hallmarks of fascism, but I don't think he is a fascist.

He's a wannabe looking up to the likes of Putin, Kim, Xi and Erdogan.
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Hanafuridake
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5527
Founded: Sep 09, 2018
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Hanafuridake » Sat Dec 21, 2019 7:42 pm

Totenborg wrote:
Chernoslavia wrote:
''It'S a GoOd tHiNg I DOn't dO ThAt, thEN.''

https://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/fasci14chars.html
Trump has most of these going on. And he's working on the others. Next question?


The consensus of many notable scholars of fascism seems to be that Trump isn't a fascist, and I would take their words with more weight than this. Fascism inherently involves a totalitarian, corporatist, one party state centered around a Great Leader who will lead a national rebirth (Hitler, Mussolini, Franco, etc.). While Trump shares superficial similarities with palingenetic ultra-nationalism, he ultimately isn't one.

This isn't an endorsement or defense of Trump. You don't have to be a fascist to be a terrible politician and human being.
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Pasong Tirad
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10349
Founded: May 31, 2007
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Pasong Tirad » Sat Dec 21, 2019 7:45 pm

Gormwood wrote:
Albrenia wrote:Trump's outlook does seem to have a lot of the hallmarks of fascism, but I don't think he is a fascist.

He's a wannabe looking up to the likes of Putin, Kim, Xi and Erdogan.

I'd argue many of Trump's actions are fascistic, at the very least. Hana said it best. You need an ultranationalist state yearning for some kind of rebirth. You're hopefully not there yet and hopefully will never get there.
Last edited by Pasong Tirad on Sat Dec 21, 2019 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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United Muscovite Nations
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Posts: 25657
Founded: Feb 01, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby United Muscovite Nations » Sat Dec 21, 2019 7:48 pm

Trump's not a fascist, he has no ideology to speak of, he has a few dispositions, but dispositions don't make a worldview. He is supremely prone to being influenced.
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Northern Davincia
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16960
Founded: Jun 10, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Northern Davincia » Sat Dec 21, 2019 7:51 pm

Torrocca wrote:It's always refreshing to see self-proclaimed right-wing "libertarians" twist themselves into a pretzel defending Fascism by yelling "DEFINITION BAD!" at analyses of Fascism as practiced with nary an iota of substantial argumentation made to reinforce that incessant yelling.

We will take you seriously when fascism is not thrown around to the point of meaninglessness.
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Economic Left/Right: 9.75
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Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."

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Hanafuridake
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5527
Founded: Sep 09, 2018
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Hanafuridake » Sat Dec 21, 2019 7:53 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:Trump's not a fascist, he has no ideology to speak of, he has a few dispositions, but dispositions don't make a worldview. He is supremely prone to being influenced.


Basically Trump is just a rich boomer who thinks the rest of the world needs to respect America's authoritah. He doesn't have any concrete ideas, which leaves him open to influence from evangelicals, esoteric nationalists, etc. Pence and Bannon are two examples of this.
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Beire
Lobbyist
 
Posts: 12
Founded: Dec 18, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Beire » Sat Dec 21, 2019 9:23 pm

Trump is not ideologically a fascist. The misuse of this word is problematic as it undermines the severity of actual fascism and fascism's noisome legacy.

Liberalism, be it social democracy, neoliberalism or whatever, has always relied upon or enjoyed the support of fascist movements. Trump is no exception to this. If there is a threat to the wealth and power of the bourgeoisie, the liberals will ultimately side with the fascists as Trump does (or at least they will make perfunctory claims about fascist extremism), due to the fact that fascism is a means to preserve capitalism. A lot of the bad things Trump and his government have done existed or were even worse pre-Trump.

The main difference is that, with the rise of populism and Trumpian rhetoric, fascist movements have been emboldened. They were always there, but they are just more prominent now.
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