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LWDT 8: Hitting the Marx

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Under which leaders (if any) was the Soviet Union socialist?

Lenin (1918-1924)
411
34%
Stalin (1924-1953)
223
19%
Khrushchev (1953-1964)
149
12%
Brezhnev (1964-1982)
125
10%
Gorbachev (1985-1991)
126
10%
Never
167
14%
 
Total votes : 1201

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Dumb Ideologies
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Postby Dumb Ideologies » Sat Dec 21, 2019 11:15 am

Proctopeo wrote:
Chernoslavia wrote:
I don't mean wearing the actual title of fascism as a badge of honor, more like being called one by some ignorant lefty. It's one thing to be against fascism, it's another to call anyone you don't agree with a fascist.

I've seen people get called fascist for supporting the freedom of speech. Some people really do not know what fascism is.


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Proctopeo
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Anarchy

Postby Proctopeo » Sat Dec 21, 2019 11:24 am

Dumb Ideologies wrote:
Proctopeo wrote:I've seen people get called fascist for supporting the freedom of speech. Some people really do not know what fascism is.


LIbErTaRiAn To FaSh PiPeLiNe

It's such an absurd concept.
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Totenborg
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Postby Totenborg » Sat Dec 21, 2019 11:41 am

Proctopeo wrote:
Dumb Ideologies wrote:
LIbErTaRiAn To FaSh PiPeLiNe

It's such an absurd concept.

Because people like Alex Jones, Michael Savage, and Donald Trump don't exist...
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North German Realm
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Left-Leaning College State

Postby North German Realm » Sat Dec 21, 2019 11:45 am

Totenborg wrote:
Proctopeo wrote:It's such an absurd concept.

Because people like Alex Jones, Michael Savage, and Donald Trump don't exist...

I mean, neither is libertarian by any meaning of the word.
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Proctopeo
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Anarchy

Postby Proctopeo » Sat Dec 21, 2019 11:47 am

Totenborg wrote:
Proctopeo wrote:It's such an absurd concept.

Because people like Alex Jones, Michael Savage, and Donald Trump don't exist...

They exist, sure, but they don't have anything to do with the so-called pipeline.

North German Realm wrote:
Totenborg wrote:Because people like Alex Jones, Michael Savage, and Donald Trump don't exist...

I mean, neither is libertarian by any meaning of the word.

Yeah; none of the three were or are libertarians, any type, and neither Jones nor Trump are fascist. Savage maybe, but I don't think he's close enough.
I don't know what to put here, but I've returned.

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Chernoslavia
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Founded: Jun 13, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Chernoslavia » Sat Dec 21, 2019 11:51 am

Totenborg wrote:
Proctopeo wrote:It's such an absurd concept.

Because people like Alex Jones, Michael Savage, and Donald Trump don't exist...


Neither of which have anything to do with the libertarian to fascist pipeline.
What would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive? Or if during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand? The Organs would quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!

- Alexander Solzhenitsyn

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Totenborg
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Posts: 914
Founded: Mar 23, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Totenborg » Sat Dec 21, 2019 11:51 am

Proctopeo wrote:
Totenborg wrote:Because people like Alex Jones, Michael Savage, and Donald Trump don't exist...

They exist, sure, but they don't have anything to do with the so-called pipeline.

North German Realm wrote:I mean, neither is libertarian by any meaning of the word.

Yeah; none of the three were or are libertarians, any type, and neither Jones nor Trump are fascist. Savage maybe, but I don't think he's close enough.

Hey, I don't know if you've been watching the news, but I have some bad news about Trump...
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Totenborg
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Postby Totenborg » Sat Dec 21, 2019 11:52 am

Chernoslavia wrote:
Totenborg wrote:Because people like Alex Jones, Michael Savage, and Donald Trump don't exist...


Neither of which have anything to do with the libertarian to fascist pipeline.

Have you ever heard their shows?!
Rabid anti-fascist.
Existential nihilist.
Lifer metalhead.
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Chernoslavia
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Postby Chernoslavia » Sat Dec 21, 2019 11:52 am

Totenborg wrote:
Chernoslavia wrote:
Neither of which have anything to do with the libertarian to fascist pipeline.

Have you ever heard their shows?!


Yes, have you?
What would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive? Or if during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand? The Organs would quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!

- Alexander Solzhenitsyn

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Proctopeo
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Posts: 12052
Founded: Sep 26, 2016
Anarchy

Postby Proctopeo » Sat Dec 21, 2019 11:54 am

Totenborg wrote:
Proctopeo wrote:They exist, sure, but they don't have anything to do with the so-called pipeline.


Yeah; none of the three were or are libertarians, any type, and neither Jones nor Trump are fascist. Savage maybe, but I don't think he's close enough.

Hey, I don't know if you've been watching the news, but I have some bad news about Trump...

Bad news for you, you mean?
I don't know what to put here, but I've returned.

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Chernoslavia
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Founded: Jun 13, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Chernoslavia » Sat Dec 21, 2019 11:56 am

Totenborg wrote:
Proctopeo wrote:They exist, sure, but they don't have anything to do with the so-called pipeline.


Yeah; none of the three were or are libertarians, any type, and neither Jones nor Trump are fascist. Savage maybe, but I don't think he's close enough.

Hey, I don't know if you've been watching the news, but I have some bad news about Trump...


''It'S a GoOd tHiNg I DOn't dO ThAt, thEN.''
Last edited by Chernoslavia on Sat Dec 21, 2019 11:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
What would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive? Or if during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand? The Organs would quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!

- Alexander Solzhenitsyn

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Totenborg
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Posts: 914
Founded: Mar 23, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Totenborg » Sat Dec 21, 2019 11:56 am

Proctopeo wrote:
Totenborg wrote:Hey, I don't know if you've been watching the news, but I have some bad news about Trump...

Bad news for you, you mean?

Because he's a fascist? Yeah, that's bad for me, but it's also just bad for everyone.
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Proctopeo
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Posts: 12052
Founded: Sep 26, 2016
Anarchy

Postby Proctopeo » Sat Dec 21, 2019 11:56 am

Totenborg wrote:
Proctopeo wrote:Bad news for you, you mean?

Because he's a fascist? Yeah, that's bad for me, but it's also just bad for everyone.

Nah, bad news 'cause he's not. Authoritarian, probably, but by no rational means is he a fascist.
I don't know what to put here, but I've returned.

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Totenborg
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Founded: Mar 23, 2019
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Postby Totenborg » Sat Dec 21, 2019 11:59 am

Chernoslavia wrote:
Totenborg wrote:Hey, I don't know if you've been watching the news, but I have some bad news about Trump...


''It'S a GoOd tHiNg I DOn't dO ThAt, thEN.''

https://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/fasci14chars.html
Trump has most of these going on. And he's working on the others. Next question?
Last edited by Totenborg on Sat Dec 21, 2019 12:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Rabid anti-fascist.
Existential nihilist.
Lifer metalhead.
Unrepentant fan of birds.

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Chernoslavia
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Postby Chernoslavia » Sat Dec 21, 2019 12:10 pm

Totenborg wrote:
Chernoslavia wrote:
''It'S a GoOd tHiNg I DOn't dO ThAt, thEN.''

https://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/fasci14chars.html
Trump has 12 of the 14 going on. And he's working on the other two. Next question?


Lmao. You're gonna have to do better than cite madeupbullshit.com. I just love how this link conveniently doesn't list ''forcible suppression of opposition'' or ''strong regimentation of society'' or ''dictatorial powers'' as symptoms, y'know the key things that make a fascist regime fascist. Calling trump fascist is about as dumb as calling Scandinavian countries Socialists.
Last edited by Chernoslavia on Sat Dec 21, 2019 12:18 pm, edited 4 times in total.
What would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive? Or if during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand? The Organs would quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!

- Alexander Solzhenitsyn

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Nakena
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Founded: May 06, 2017
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Nakena » Sat Dec 21, 2019 12:12 pm

Is anything of this manifesto being fascist then?

the Manifesto calls for:

Universal suffrage with a lowered voting age to 18 years, and voting and electoral office eligibility for all age 25 and up;
Proportional representation on a regional basis;
Voting for women (which was then opposed by most other European nations);
Representation at government level of newly created national councils by economic sector;
The abolition of the Italian Senate (at the time, the Senate, as the upper house of parliament, was by process elected by the wealthier citizens, but were in reality direct appointments by the king. It has been described as a sort of extended council of the crown);
The formation of a national council of experts for labor, for industry, for transportation, for the public health, for communications, etc. Selections to be made of professionals or of tradesmen with legislative powers, and elected directly to a general commission with ministerial powers.

In labor and social policy, the Manifesto calls for:

The quick enactment of a law of the state that sanctions an eight-hour workday for all workers;
A minimum wage;
The participation of workers' representatives in the functions of industry commissions;
To show the same confidence in the labor unions (that prove to be technically and morally worthy) as is given to industry executives or public servants;
Reorganization of the railways and the transport sector;
Revision of the draft law on invalidity insurance;
Reduction of the retirement age from 65 to 55.

In military affairs, the Manifesto advocates:

Creation of a short-service national militia with specifically defensive responsibilities;
Armaments factories are to be nationalized;
A peaceful but competitive foreign policy.

In finance, the Manifesto advocates:

A strong progressive tax on capital (envisaging a “partial expropriation” of concentrated wealth);
The seizure of all the possessions of the religious congregations and the abolition of all the bishoprics, which constitute an enormous liability on the Nation and on the privileges of the poor;
Revision of all contracts for military provisions;
The revision of all military contracts and the seizure of 85 percent of the profits therein.


PS: yes it is. oddly enough... or once used to be
【NAZBOL GANG】

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Totenborg
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Postby Totenborg » Sat Dec 21, 2019 12:13 pm

Chernoslavia wrote:
Totenborg wrote:https://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/fasci14chars.html
Trump has 12 of the 14 going on. And he's working on the other two. Next question?


Lmao. You're gonna have to do better than cite madeupbullshit.com

Neat. So, you're just gonna lean into #11.
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Existential nihilist.
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Chernoslavia
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Founded: Jun 13, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Chernoslavia » Sat Dec 21, 2019 12:14 pm

Totenborg wrote:
Chernoslavia wrote:
Lmao. You're gonna have to do better than cite madeupbullshit.com

Neat. So, you're just gonna lean into #11.

Your link has no citations to any actual credible source, it even gets sexism and homophobia mixed in. It's garbage. Also reread my post, I edit it.
Last edited by Chernoslavia on Sat Dec 21, 2019 12:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
What would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive? Or if during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand? The Organs would quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!

- Alexander Solzhenitsyn

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Totenborg
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Founded: Mar 23, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Totenborg » Sat Dec 21, 2019 12:25 pm

Chernoslavia wrote:
Totenborg wrote:Neat. So, you're just gonna lean into #11.

Your article is crap with no citations to any actual credible source, it even gets sexism and homophobia mixed in. It's garbage. Also reread my post, I edit it.

In that case, you seem to misunderstand what a credible source is. Hint: it's not just guys who agree with you.
Rabid anti-fascist.
Existential nihilist.
Lifer metalhead.
Unrepentant fan of birds.

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Totenborg
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Founded: Mar 23, 2019
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Postby Totenborg » Sat Dec 21, 2019 12:30 pm

Nakena wrote:Is anything of this manifesto being fascist then?

the Manifesto calls for:

Universal suffrage with a lowered voting age to 18 years, and voting and electoral office eligibility for all age 25 and up;
Proportional representation on a regional basis;
Voting for women (which was then opposed by most other European nations);
Representation at government level of newly created national councils by economic sector;
The abolition of the Italian Senate (at the time, the Senate, as the upper house of parliament, was by process elected by the wealthier citizens, but were in reality direct appointments by the king. It has been described as a sort of extended council of the crown);
The formation of a national council of experts for labor, for industry, for transportation, for the public health, for communications, etc. Selections to be made of professionals or of tradesmen with legislative powers, and elected directly to a general commission with ministerial powers.

In labor and social policy, the Manifesto calls for:

The quick enactment of a law of the state that sanctions an eight-hour workday for all workers;
A minimum wage;
The participation of workers' representatives in the functions of industry commissions;
To show the same confidence in the labor unions (that prove to be technically and morally worthy) as is given to industry executives or public servants;
Reorganization of the railways and the transport sector;
Revision of the draft law on invalidity insurance;
Reduction of the retirement age from 65 to 55.

In military affairs, the Manifesto advocates:

Creation of a short-service national militia with specifically defensive responsibilities;
Armaments factories are to be nationalized;
A peaceful but competitive foreign policy.

In finance, the Manifesto advocates:

A strong progressive tax on capital (envisaging a “partial expropriation” of concentrated wealth);
The seizure of all the possessions of the religious congregations and the abolition of all the bishoprics, which constitute an enormous liability on the Nation and on the privileges of the poor;
Revision of all contracts for military provisions;
The revision of all military contracts and the seizure of 85 percent of the profits therein.


PS: yes it is. oddly enough... or once used to be

Considering fascism prioritizes a cult of action, Mussolini's manifesto is close to valueless as a barometer of what fascism actually is. His actions are what are important. Fascism is often marked by incogruencies between its policies and stated ideals. Additionally, those benefits were only for the in-group.
Maybe you should have also quoted the "Manifesto in Practice Section".
Last edited by Totenborg on Sat Dec 21, 2019 12:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Rabid anti-fascist.
Existential nihilist.
Lifer metalhead.
Unrepentant fan of birds.

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Chernoslavia
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Founded: Jun 13, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Chernoslavia » Sat Dec 21, 2019 12:34 pm

Totenborg wrote:
Chernoslavia wrote:Your article is crap with no citations to any actual credible source, it even gets sexism and homophobia mixed in. It's garbage. Also reread my post, I edit it.

In that case, you seem to misunderstand what a credible source is. Hint: it's not just guys who agree with you.


Like I said, your source has the definition of fascism wrong. Trump doesn't control the media, if anything the media can't stop bitching about him for 5 fucking minutes. He doesn't jail hurt or summarily executes his political opponents, and he isn't deporting or genociding anyone because of their race. You like every other person who likes to whine about how fascism is taking over the nation have absolutely no clue what actual fascism is. You lose.
What would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive? Or if during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand? The Organs would quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!

- Alexander Solzhenitsyn

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Byzconia
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1515
Founded: Nov 01, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Byzconia » Sat Dec 21, 2019 12:36 pm

Chernoslavia wrote:
Totenborg wrote:Neat. So, you're just gonna lean into #11.

Your link has no citations to any actual credible source, it even gets sexism and homophobia mixed in. It's garbage. Also reread my post, I edit it.

You do realize that actual fascist regimes were both sexist and homophobic, right? Gay people were even targeted for extermination in the Holocaust.

I should also point your sig quotes a man who was an active supporter of Francisco Franco and the concept of the White Terror. Not that he didn't have good critiques of the USSR, but to jump over to supporting Catholic pseudo-fascism ain't the correct response.
Nation is not a reflection of RL views and is currently undergoing extensive retconning, so factbooks are all out-of-date and inaccurate.
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"When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read: 'All men are created equal except negroes, foreigners and Catholics.' When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretense of loving liberty — to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocrisy." - Abraham Lincoln

"Do not aim at what is impossible to attain, because in the quest for liberty we may fall into tyranny. Absolute liberty always leads to absolute power and among these two extremes is social liberty." - Simon Bolivar

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Totenborg
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Posts: 914
Founded: Mar 23, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Totenborg » Sat Dec 21, 2019 12:36 pm

Chernoslavia wrote:
Totenborg wrote:In that case, you seem to misunderstand what a credible source is. Hint: it's not just guys who agree with you.


Like I said, your source has the definition of fascism wrong. Trump doesn't control the media, if anything the media can't stop bitching about him for 5 fucking minutes. He doesn't jail hurt or summarily executes his political opponents, and he isn't deporting or genociding anyone because of their race. You like every other person who likes to whine about how fascism is taking over the nation have absolutely no clue what actual fascism is. You lose.

Check your reading comprehension. Your failure to understand what you've read does not equal your victory.
Rabid anti-fascist.
Existential nihilist.
Lifer metalhead.
Unrepentant fan of birds.

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Chernoslavia
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9766
Founded: Jun 13, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Chernoslavia » Sat Dec 21, 2019 12:37 pm

Totenborg wrote:
Chernoslavia wrote:
Like I said, your source has the definition of fascism wrong. Trump doesn't control the media, if anything the media can't stop bitching about him for 5 fucking minutes. He doesn't jail hurt or summarily executes his political opponents, and he isn't deporting or genociding anyone because of their race. You like every other person who likes to whine about how fascism is taking over the nation have absolutely no clue what actual fascism is. You lose.

Check your reading comprehension. Your failure to understand what you've read does not equal your victory.


You should take your own advice.
What would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive? Or if during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand? The Organs would quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!

- Alexander Solzhenitsyn

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Totenborg
Diplomat
 
Posts: 914
Founded: Mar 23, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Totenborg » Sat Dec 21, 2019 12:39 pm

Chernoslavia wrote:
Totenborg wrote:Check your reading comprehension. Your failure to understand what you've read does not equal your victory.


You should take your own advice.

I'm not the one misunderstanding source content here.
Rabid anti-fascist.
Existential nihilist.
Lifer metalhead.
Unrepentant fan of birds.

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