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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 8:44 pm
by Communal concils
Kubra wrote:
Communal concils wrote:

1. I think it would be best if companies leave the nation. I have no reason as a socialist to really benefit the hoarders of capital.

2. However, waiting to solve problems is not really something we should embrace. what matter is now. There will be poverty and societal ills regardless of immigration policy, but that does not mean that it doesn't matter. Flooding a nation with proletarians would force all of them into being urban lumpens that live in slums are similar situations. it would also cause antagonisms with different demographics. So, I feel like such a thing would speed up the rise of fascism and it would intersect with policies like gentrification.
And here's the problem.

When I said "abolish the wage system" I said so tongue-in-cheek. I mean, that really is my preferred solution, honest to god, but y'know when we use revolution as a deus ex machina we really do trivialise the whole thing.
As it stands, they're gonna live an immiserated existence, at here or abroad, and *so will we*. Net negative, man.
As always, Saint Marx guides my hand. Most of what I have said has its origins in Marx discussing the very phenomena we are, in relation to Irish labour being sent en masse to England for more or less the same reasons, merely updating for the fact that eventually the irish just become normal ol' proles, indistinguishable from the lot.
Immigration scares come and go, man. They do so for, well, pretty much the same reasons. Like nearly all the time.



1. Yes, thing are still bad. However, I find it important to secure the situation of my nation. If people are force to come over here, they would be force to live in slums and be used as cheap labor. I see no reason to bring more people into another capitalist nation.

2. It is possible that Marx was wrong. I honestly think that orthodox Marxism is dead, and Marxism is only relevant through significant revisions of theory.

3. Yes that is true. But your simply ignoring the major impacts of such a thing. disease, overcrowding, and crime would simply shift into the new areas, and fascism can grow from such conditions. this has little to do with a "irrational" fear, but has to do with the Geo-political. implications and crises of the modern world.

PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 8:51 pm
by Kubra
Communal concils wrote:
Kubra wrote: And here's the problem.

When I said "abolish the wage system" I said so tongue-in-cheek. I mean, that really is my preferred solution, honest to god, but y'know when we use revolution as a deus ex machina we really do trivialise the whole thing.
As it stands, they're gonna live an immiserated existence, at here or abroad, and *so will we*. Net negative, man.
As always, Saint Marx guides my hand. Most of what I have said has its origins in Marx discussing the very phenomena we are, in relation to Irish labour being sent en masse to England for more or less the same reasons, merely updating for the fact that eventually the irish just become normal ol' proles, indistinguishable from the lot.
Immigration scares come and go, man. They do so for, well, pretty much the same reasons. Like nearly all the time.



1. Yes, thing are still bad. However, I find it important to secure the situation of my nation. If people are force to come over here, they would be force to live in slums and be used as cheap labor. I see no reason to bring more people into another capitalist nation.

2. It is possible that Marx was wrong. I honestly think that orthodox Marxism is dead, and Marxism is only relevant through significant revisions of theory.

3. Yes that is true. But your simply ignoring the major impacts of such a thing. disease, overcrowding, and crime would simply shift into the new areas, and fascism can grow from such conditions. this has little to do with a "irrational" fear, but has to do with the Geo-political. implications and crises of the modern world.
Sure, but they'd be forced to live in slums at home. And we are often forced to live in slums, either way. All you gotta be to end up in a slum is poor, you feel?
Nah, you probably mean my modifications are wrong, man. Marx only observed the downward pressure in wages, the creation of two hostile proletarian camps, and the immiseration of both british industrial cities and the irish countryside.

PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 8:53 pm
by Communal concils
Kubra wrote:
Communal concils wrote:

1. Yes, thing are still bad. However, I find it important to secure the situation of my nation. If people are force to come over here, they would be force to live in slums and be used as cheap labor. I see no reason to bring more people into another capitalist nation.

2. It is possible that Marx was wrong. I honestly think that orthodox Marxism is dead, and Marxism is only relevant through significant revisions of theory.

3. Yes that is true. But your simply ignoring the major impacts of such a thing. disease, overcrowding, and crime would simply shift into the new areas, and fascism can grow from such conditions. this has little to do with a "irrational" fear, but has to do with the Geo-political. implications and crises of the modern world.
Sure, but they'd be forced to live in slums at home. And we are often forced to live in slums, either way. All you gotta be to end up in a slum is poor, you feel?
Nah, you probably mean my modifications are wrong, man. Marx only observed the downward pressure in wages, the creation of two hostile proletarian camps, and the immiseration of the irish countryside.



okay.

PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:25 pm
by Byzconia
Northern Davincia wrote:You said Pinochet killed/tortured the majority of the opposition. If the opposition is half the country, the victim count should be much higher. The 1980 plebiscite put a term on Pinochet's power until the one in 1988 fully restored democracy.

You...do understand that hyperbole is a thing, right? You didn't think those were meant to be actual estimates, did you?

The long-term economic good came from Pinochet's reforms.

[Citation needed]

PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:29 pm
by Kowani
Byzconia wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:You said Pinochet killed/tortured the majority of the opposition. If the opposition is half the country, the victim count should be much higher. The 1980 plebiscite put a term on Pinochet's power until the one in 1988 fully restored democracy.

You...do understand that hyperbole is a thing, right? You didn't think those were meant to be actual estimates, did you?

The long-term economic good came from Pinochet's reforms.

[Citation needed]

Lemme save us some time. nope.

PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:51 pm
by Byzconia
Northern Davincia wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
This kinda shit is an example out of many of exactly why the USSR and its derivatives fucking suck and did nothing good for furthering the cause of Socialism.

Perhaps socialism always degenerates into brutishness when practiced on a sufficiently large scale.

The state always degenerates into brutishness--socialist or otherwise.

PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:53 pm
by Kubra
Torrocca wrote:
Jack Thomas Lang wrote:So this gay commie wrote a letter to Stalin asking whether homosexuals can be party member.

Stalin's response? “Archive. An idiot and a degenerate. J. Stalin.”


This kinda shit is an example out of many of exactly why the USSR and its derivatives fucking suck and did nothing good for furthering the cause of Socialism.
All the while rating and scribbling notes in the margins of some pretty erotic depictions of the male figure. Is Stalin the first closeted bro?

PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:54 pm
by Byzconia
Pasong Tirad wrote:
Duvniask wrote:Imagine coming to agreement with a fascist about the "brutishness" of socialism.

Also, the laziest argument in existence.

They don't care about being right. This isn't discourse to them, this is a performance. They aren't here to change our minds or broaden their own understanding they're here to own the commies until we give up and leave the forum.

Hence why I generally try to ignore right-"libertarians" for the most part (tbh, they were the inspiration for the "Disclaimer" in my sig).

PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:58 pm
by Byzconia
Communal concils wrote:What is everyone's thoughts on Euro-Communism, and has any leftist here been called a liberal by Marxist-Leninist and a Tankie by libertarian socialist?

I think Eurocommunism is cool. I have indeed been called both a "liberal" and "imperialist" by MLs before. Never been insulted by other libsocs.

PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 11:03 pm
by Byzconia
Northern Davincia wrote:Right-libertarianism is a young ideology, unlike socialism, and has not been practiced on a large scale.

There's nothing "new" about it, it's just a modern spin on classical liberalism and laissez-faire capitalism, which have been tried and failed to such a massive extant that no one outside of North America even considers them to be realistic solutions at this point.

PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 11:36 pm
by Torrocca
Hanafuridake wrote:
Pasong Tirad wrote:They don't care about being right. This isn't discourse to them, this is a performance. They aren't here to change our minds or broaden their own understanding they're here to own the commies until we give up and leave the forum.


Pretty much, the whole Freikorps flag thing is a good example of that.


A shame that the ignore function on this site is completely broken, because there's no good way of filtering out that stuff.

PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 11:43 pm
by Washington Resistance Army
Torrocca wrote:
Hanafuridake wrote:
Pretty much, the whole Freikorps flag thing is a good example of that.


A shame that the ignore function on this site is completely broken, because there's no good way of filtering out that stuff.


It's rather remarkable the site even works this well nowadays tbh. Overall NS in general is ancient.

PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 11:47 pm
by Byzconia
Torrocca wrote:
Hanafuridake wrote:
Pretty much, the whole Freikorps flag thing is a good example of that.


A shame that the ignore function on this site is completely broken, because there's no good way of filtering out that stuff.

How's it broken? I haven't had any problems with using it.

PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 11:54 pm
by Torrocca
Byzconia wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
A shame that the ignore function on this site is completely broken, because there's no good way of filtering out that stuff.

How's it broken? I haven't had any problems with using it.


You can't really avoid those people you've got on ignore if somebody else quotes them.

PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2019 12:29 am
by LiberNovusAmericae
Proctopeo wrote:
Pasong Tirad wrote:Who?

Eternal Lotharia.

Wow, I didn't realize that until just now.

PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2019 4:21 am
by Chernoslavia
Totenborg wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:Perhaps socialism always degenerates into brutishness when practiced on a sufficiently large scale.

And right libertarianism degenerates into brutishnes immediately. That being said, authoritarian socialism sucks as hard as fascism does.


How? Also, fascism really? Like you’re the reason why nobody takes that word seriously anymore and wears it as a badge of honor.

PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2019 4:23 am
by Chernoslavia
Proctopeo wrote:
Pasong Tirad wrote:Who?

Eternal Lotharia.


Lol. What he do?

PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2019 4:24 am
by Albrenia
Chernoslavia wrote:
Proctopeo wrote:Eternal Lotharia.


Lol. What he do?


From what I can piece together from what remains after all of his posts were deleted, something about admitting to a crime... or something.

PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2019 7:32 am
by LiberNovusAmericae
Albrenia wrote:
Chernoslavia wrote:
Lol. What he do?


From what I can piece together from what remains after all of his posts were deleted, something about admitting to a crime... or something.

He admitted to a crime that he committed as a child, and He admitted it years ago and the mods suppressed it years ago. I don't see how that would lead to a DOS now.

PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2019 7:50 am
by Chernoslavia
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:
Albrenia wrote:
From what I can piece together from what remains after all of his posts were deleted, something about admitting to a crime... or something.

He admitted to a crime that he committed as a child, and He admitted it years ago and the mods suppressed it years ago. I don't see how that would lead to a DOS now.


Yeah, apparently he admitted to raping his cousin or something from what I can gather from moderation.

PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2019 8:47 am
by Totenborg
Chernoslavia wrote:
Totenborg wrote:And right libertarianism degenerates into brutishnes immediately. That being said, authoritarian socialism sucks as hard as fascism does.


How? Also, fascism really? Like you’re the reason why nobody takes that word seriously anymore and wears it as a badge of honor.

If you wear fascism as a badge of honor, you've got a weird sense of honor. Disdain for human rights and democracy is not a badge of honor. The only people who don't take fascism seriously are either uniformed or fascists themselves. Sometimes, it's both.
Also, you seem to overestimate my influence.

PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2019 8:58 am
by Nuroblav
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:
Albrenia wrote:
From what I can piece together from what remains after all of his posts were deleted, something about admitting to a crime... or something.

He admitted to a crime that he committed as a child, and He admitted it years ago and the mods suppressed it years ago. I don't see how that would lead to a DOS now.

Wow. I didn't expect someone like Lotharia to get DOSed. RIP.

PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2019 10:56 am
by Chernoslavia
Totenborg wrote:
Chernoslavia wrote:
How? Also, fascism really? Like you’re the reason why nobody takes that word seriously anymore and wears it as a badge of honor.

If you wear fascism as a badge of honor, you've got a weird sense of honor. Disdain for human rights and democracy is not a badge of honor. The only people who don't take fascism seriously are either uniformed or fascists themselves. Sometimes, it's both.
Also, you seem to overestimate my influence.


I don't mean wearing the actual title of fascism as a badge of honor, more like being called one by some ignorant lefty. It's one thing to be against fascism, it's another to call anyone you don't agree with a fascist.

PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2019 11:09 am
by Proctopeo
Chernoslavia wrote:
Totenborg wrote:If you wear fascism as a badge of honor, you've got a weird sense of honor. Disdain for human rights and democracy is not a badge of honor. The only people who don't take fascism seriously are either uniformed or fascists themselves. Sometimes, it's both.
Also, you seem to overestimate my influence.


I don't mean wearing the actual title of fascism as a badge of honor, more like being called one by some ignorant lefty. It's one thing to be against fascism, it's another to call anyone you don't agree with a fascist.

I've seen people get called fascist for supporting the freedom of speech. Some people really do not know what fascism is.

PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2019 11:13 am
by Totenborg
Chernoslavia wrote:
Totenborg wrote:If you wear fascism as a badge of honor, you've got a weird sense of honor. Disdain for human rights and democracy is not a badge of honor. The only people who don't take fascism seriously are either uniformed or fascists themselves. Sometimes, it's both.
Also, you seem to overestimate my influence.


I don't mean wearing the actual title of fascism as a badge of honor, more like being called one by some ignorant lefty. It's one thing to be against fascism, it's another to call anyone you don't agree with a fascist.

It's a good thing I don't do that, then.