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LWDT 8: Hitting the Marx

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Under which leaders (if any) was the Soviet Union socialist?

Lenin (1918-1924)
411
34%
Stalin (1924-1953)
223
19%
Khrushchev (1953-1964)
149
12%
Brezhnev (1964-1982)
125
10%
Gorbachev (1985-1991)
126
10%
Never
167
14%
 
Total votes : 1201

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United Muscovite Nations
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Ex-Nation

Postby United Muscovite Nations » Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:53 pm

Jack Thomas Lang wrote:Actually disgusted Andropov is not an option in the poll.

OP, make it so.

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Northern Davincia
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Northern Davincia » Tue Dec 17, 2019 7:11 pm

Byzconia wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:It's good enough that people flee from my state to move there. Living in a Democrat's paradise has the nasty habit of driving folks out.

I mean, is there any real evidence that flight from your state is any worse than most others? Also, aren't most of the people who move to FL older people who want the warmer weather and lower taxes? That's not exactly a brain drain, like my Blue Dog (so, basically, moderate-Republicans-in-drag) state has been suffering for literal decades from the lack of jobs here. Hell, the only reason I'm still here is because I don't have the resources to leave yet (due to aforementioned lack of jobs), though I'm working on it. And once I do leave, they'll never see me again; this state fucking blows.

It's not just warmer weather and lower taxes, otherwise emigration from New York would not be in excess of 1,000,000 since 2011. It's a restrictive economic environment and baffling levels of corruption. The proof is in our lost House seats.
California is in a similar rut.
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Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."

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The East Marches II
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Posts: 18033
Founded: Mar 11, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby The East Marches II » Tue Dec 17, 2019 7:12 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
Byzconia wrote:I mean, is there any real evidence that flight from your state is any worse than most others? Also, aren't most of the people who move to FL older people who want the warmer weather and lower taxes? That's not exactly a brain drain, like my Blue Dog (so, basically, moderate-Republicans-in-drag) state has been suffering for literal decades from the lack of jobs here. Hell, the only reason I'm still here is because I don't have the resources to leave yet (due to aforementioned lack of jobs), though I'm working on it. And once I do leave, they'll never see me again; this state fucking blows.

It's not just warmer weather and lower taxes, otherwise emigration from New York would not be in excess of 1,000,000 since 2011. It's a restrictive economic environment and baffling levels of corruption. The proof is in our lost House seats.
California is in a similar rut.


So is Illinois. Which is the worst out of those three financially. It's bleeding to death by people fleeing.

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Northern Davincia
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Founded: Jun 10, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Northern Davincia » Tue Dec 17, 2019 7:18 pm

The East Marches II wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:It's not just warmer weather and lower taxes, otherwise emigration from New York would not be in excess of 1,000,000 since 2011. It's a restrictive economic environment and baffling levels of corruption. The proof is in our lost House seats.
California is in a similar rut.


So is Illinois. Which is the worst out of those three financially. It's bleeding to death by people fleeing.

Your pizza is to blame for Illinois' woes I would wager that New York suffers more as a state. Our budget shortfalls are continually made worse by tax-and-spend politicians.
Hoppean Libertarian, Acolyte of von Mises, Protector of Our Sacred Liberties
Economic Left/Right: 9.75
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Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."

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The East Marches II
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Ex-Nation

Postby The East Marches II » Tue Dec 17, 2019 7:19 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
The East Marches II wrote:
So is Illinois. Which is the worst out of those three financially. It's bleeding to death by people fleeing.

Your pizza is to blame for Illinois' woes I would wager that New York suffers more as a state. Our budget shortfalls are continually made worse by tax-and-spend politicians.


I wouldn't be surprised. Chicago is on the verge of bankruptcy here. Our governor and friends have the Feds looking into them. Yet another may bite the dust in a corruption probe. GG no re.

Edit: on the note of pizza you're right. Most places have gone to shit. It's money laundering fronts using shitty pizza. Pathetic really.
Last edited by The East Marches II on Tue Dec 17, 2019 7:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Happpy
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Posts: 83
Founded: Dec 17, 2019
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Happpy » Tue Dec 17, 2019 7:20 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:The Empires ideology is so completely ridiculous because it necessitates the destruction of planets in revolt, which necessarily pretty heavily empowers the planets you're using as a supply chain to build your stupid superweapons and turns the entire affair into a gigantic money pit.

Is this what Palpatine wanted to do with his time? Take over, sit in a chair, gaze out into space, and order everyone to build stupid superweapons?

That's not exactly power. I mean, it's a kind of power I guess, but it's the dumb kind.

We saw from the first movie that a blockade brought a planet to its knees, and that shit was a renegade force, not the entire Imperial fleet. That's like, obviously a better way of doing things?

It's not like they wanted to blow up every planet. It was used as a way to get their victims to conform through fear. The only planet they intended to destroy at the moment was the rebel planet.

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The Liberated Territories
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Founded: Dec 03, 2013
Capitalizt

Postby The Liberated Territories » Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:25 am

The East Marches II wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:Your pizza is to blame for Illinois' woes I would wager that New York suffers more as a state. Our budget shortfalls are continually made worse by tax-and-spend politicians.


I wouldn't be surprised. Chicago is on the verge of bankruptcy here. Our governor and friends have the Feds looking into them. Yet another may bite the dust in a corruption probe. GG no re.

Edit: on the note of pizza you're right. Most places have gone to shit. It's money laundering fronts using shitty pizza. Pathetic really.


This is why New York (actually NJ) pizza is superior.
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Totenborg
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Founded: Mar 23, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Totenborg » Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:41 am

Northern Davincia wrote:
Byzconia wrote:Florida is shit, tho. People I know from the Deep South literally insist that "Florida isn't the South" because they don't want to be associated with "America's wang."

It's good enough that people flee from my state to move there. Living in a Democrat's paradise has the nasty habit of driving folks out.

If you lived in the Deep South for a few years, you'd change your mind.
Last edited by Totenborg on Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Benuty
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Posts: 36499
Founded: Jan 21, 2013
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Benuty » Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:28 am

Totenborg wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:It's good enough that people flee from my state to move there. Living in a Democrat's paradise has the nasty habit of driving folks out.

If you lived in the Deep South for a few years, you'd change your mind.

*Insert african american great migration joke here*.

Jokes aside those poor people, out of one shitty situation into another.
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Joohan
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Founded: Jan 11, 2018
Authoritarian Democracy

Postby Joohan » Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:51 am

Totenborg wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:It's good enough that people flee from my state to move there. Living in a Democrat's paradise has the nasty habit of driving folks out.

If you lived in the Deep South for a few years, you'd change your mind.


That's usually for things like a lack of educational facilities and proper infrastructure. It sucks there because the people start out poor. I'm from Illinois, and despite us being, in my humble opinion, greatly blessed with the best soil in the entire world, the Mississippi river, and amble coal reserves, people are being made poor by our ungodly corrupt state government, and the constant meddling of Chicago.

Joe schmoe can afford to live in rural Kentucky, but he can't afford to live in Rural Illinois.
If you need a witness look to yourself

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Byzconia
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Founded: Nov 01, 2018
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Byzconia » Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:08 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
Byzconia wrote:I mean, is there any real evidence that flight from your state is any worse than most others? Also, aren't most of the people who move to FL older people who want the warmer weather and lower taxes? That's not exactly a brain drain, like my Blue Dog (so, basically, moderate-Republicans-in-drag) state has been suffering for literal decades from the lack of jobs here. Hell, the only reason I'm still here is because I don't have the resources to leave yet (due to aforementioned lack of jobs), though I'm working on it. And once I do leave, they'll never see me again; this state fucking blows.

It's not just warmer weather and lower taxes, otherwise emigration from New York would not be in excess of 1,000,000 since 2011. It's a restrictive economic environment and baffling levels of corruption. The proof is in our lost House seats.
California is in a similar rut.

I'd need to see some actual data in order to make an informed statement on this. Specifically, emigration-immigration levels across the US and economic statistics for each state. I'm kind of interested in knowing about this myself, so I'll probably look it up later on my own time (but if you have anything you'd like to contribute in that regard, feel free).
Civil libertarian, economic populist.
"When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read: 'All men are created equal except negroes, foreigners and Catholics.' When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretense of loving liberty — to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocrisy." - Abraham Lincoln

"Do not aim at what is impossible to attain, because in the quest for liberty we may fall into tyranny. Absolute liberty always leads to absolute power and among these two extremes is social liberty." - Simon Bolivar

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Byzconia
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Postby Byzconia » Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:13 pm

Joohan wrote:
Totenborg wrote:If you lived in the Deep South for a few years, you'd change your mind.


That's usually for things like a lack of educational facilities and proper infrastructure. It sucks there because the people start out poor. I'm from Illinois, and despite us being, in my humble opinion, greatly blessed with the best soil in the entire world, the Mississippi river, and amble coal reserves, people are being made poor by our ungodly corrupt state government, and the constant meddling of Chicago.

Joe schmoe can afford to live in rural Kentucky, but he can't afford to live in Rural Illinois.

He may be able to afford to live there, be he can't really thrive there due to the dearth of economic opportunities across the country (and let me be clear that's it not exclusive to either Republican or Democratic states, it's a nationwide--and even worldwide--problem). Economic transitions are always a bitch to begin with, but the US government is both corrupt and incompetent (which only makes it worse), and both major parties are right there with it.

Both political and economic reforms are necessary to turn the situation around.
Civil libertarian, economic populist.
"When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read: 'All men are created equal except negroes, foreigners and Catholics.' When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretense of loving liberty — to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocrisy." - Abraham Lincoln

"Do not aim at what is impossible to attain, because in the quest for liberty we may fall into tyranny. Absolute liberty always leads to absolute power and among these two extremes is social liberty." - Simon Bolivar

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Northern Davincia
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Northern Davincia » Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:38 pm

Totenborg wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:It's good enough that people flee from my state to move there. Living in a Democrat's paradise has the nasty habit of driving folks out.

If you lived in the Deep South for a few years, you'd change your mind.

I doubt it. Everyone I know that has left NY loves Texas and Florida.
Byzconia wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:It's not just warmer weather and lower taxes, otherwise emigration from New York would not be in excess of 1,000,000 since 2011. It's a restrictive economic environment and baffling levels of corruption. The proof is in our lost House seats.
California is in a similar rut.

I'd need to see some actual data in order to make an informed statement on this. Specifically, emigration-immigration levels across the US and economic statistics for each state. I'm kind of interested in knowing about this myself, so I'll probably look it up later on my own time (but if you have anything you'd like to contribute in that regard, feel free).

https://www.democratandchronicle.com/st ... 362167002/
https://www.pressconnects.com/story/new ... 482885002/
It is a travesty.
Hoppean Libertarian, Acolyte of von Mises, Protector of Our Sacred Liberties
Economic Left/Right: 9.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.05
Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."

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Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana
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Founded: Sep 01, 2019
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana » Wed Dec 18, 2019 1:52 pm

Byzconia wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:I see it enacted in Florida to greater effect.

Florida is shit, tho. People I know from the Deep South literally insist that "Florida isn't the South" because they don't want to be associated with "America's wang."

North Florida is uber conservative white country, South Florida is uber capitalist Cuban country, there’s a pretty large cultural difference
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Totenborg
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Founded: Mar 23, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Totenborg » Wed Dec 18, 2019 1:59 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
Totenborg wrote:If you lived in the Deep South for a few years, you'd change your mind.

I doubt it. Everyone I know that has left NY loves Texas and Florida.
Byzconia wrote:I'd need to see some actual data in order to make an informed statement on this. Specifically, emigration-immigration levels across the US and economic statistics for each state. I'm kind of interested in knowing about this myself, so I'll probably look it up later on my own time (but if you have anything you'd like to contribute in that regard, feel free).

https://www.democratandchronicle.com/st ... 362167002/
https://www.pressconnects.com/story/new ... 482885002/
It is a travesty.

Your friends must live in one of the cities.
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Byzconia
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Postby Byzconia » Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:01 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:I doubt it. Everyone I know that has left NY loves Texas and Florida.

And what about Mississippi, Alabama, or Louisiana?
Civil libertarian, economic populist.
"When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read: 'All men are created equal except negroes, foreigners and Catholics.' When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretense of loving liberty — to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocrisy." - Abraham Lincoln

"Do not aim at what is impossible to attain, because in the quest for liberty we may fall into tyranny. Absolute liberty always leads to absolute power and among these two extremes is social liberty." - Simon Bolivar

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Totenborg
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Founded: Mar 23, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Totenborg » Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:09 pm

Byzconia wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:I doubt it. Everyone I know that has left NY loves Texas and Florida.

And what about Mississippi, Alabama, or Louisiana?

To be fair, south Louisiana is pretty awesome, though it is horrifically mired in poverty and crime like the rest of the state.
Last edited by Totenborg on Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Pasong Tirad
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Pasong Tirad » Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:28 pm

The year's almost over. I want to spread a little positivity here and there. The international Left has had its victories and its defeats. From the Portuguese left gaining a lot of ground to the UK Labour getting their ass handed to them.

What do you think was the most important? Could be your favorite moment, could be what you think got (or should be getting) most of the world's attention, or it could be a defeat or a victory you think we can learn a lot from and do better in 2020.

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Byzconia
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Postby Byzconia » Wed Dec 18, 2019 7:26 pm

Pasong Tirad wrote:The year's almost over. I want to spread a little positivity here and there. The international Left has had its victories and its defeats. From the Portuguese left gaining a lot of ground to the UK Labour getting their ass handed to them.

What do you think was the most important? Could be your favorite moment, could be what you think got (or should be getting) most of the world's attention, or it could be a defeat or a victory you think we can learn a lot from and do better in 2020.

I'm very proud of the Morales governments successes in Bolivia. Obviously the coup is a huge problem that's going to get ignored by the Western press and lead to thousands, if not millions, of deaths going forward, but we should also recognize that the coup itself was a direct result of the Movement for Socialism's success in terms of both policy and popular support. It showed both that democratic socialism can win and also demonstrates the willingness of the right (at least in some places) to jump to violence when electoralism fails. It lays bare that their loyalty is to power and money rather than the people.
Civil libertarian, economic populist.
"When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read: 'All men are created equal except negroes, foreigners and Catholics.' When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretense of loving liberty — to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocrisy." - Abraham Lincoln

"Do not aim at what is impossible to attain, because in the quest for liberty we may fall into tyranny. Absolute liberty always leads to absolute power and among these two extremes is social liberty." - Simon Bolivar

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Northern Davincia
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Posts: 16960
Founded: Jun 10, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Northern Davincia » Wed Dec 18, 2019 7:28 pm

Totenborg wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:I doubt it. Everyone I know that has left NY loves Texas and Florida.

https://www.democratandchronicle.com/st ... 362167002/
https://www.pressconnects.com/story/new ... 482885002/
It is a travesty.

Your friends must live in one of the cities.

Most of them are suburban dwellers.
Byzconia wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:I doubt it. Everyone I know that has left NY loves Texas and Florida.

And what about Mississippi, Alabama, or Louisiana?

They're catching up.
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Economic Left/Right: 9.75
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Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."

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Proctopeo
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Posts: 12052
Founded: Sep 26, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Proctopeo » Wed Dec 18, 2019 7:47 pm

Byzconia wrote:
Pasong Tirad wrote:The year's almost over. I want to spread a little positivity here and there. The international Left has had its victories and its defeats. From the Portuguese left gaining a lot of ground to the UK Labour getting their ass handed to them.

What do you think was the most important? Could be your favorite moment, could be what you think got (or should be getting) most of the world's attention, or it could be a defeat or a victory you think we can learn a lot from and do better in 2020.

I'm very proud of the Morales governments successes in Bolivia. Obviously the coup is a huge problem that's going to get ignored by the Western press and lead to thousands, if not millions, of deaths going forward,

Blah blah blah le coup meme, more to the point is that mass death is only likely if Morales incites a civil war or gets someone to invade to put him back on the throne in office.

but we should also recognize that the coup itself was a direct result of the Movement for Socialism's success in terms of both policy and popular support.

Not really, since his popular support dipped enough that he had to cheat to win again without contest... which almost worked, until people cried foul.

It showed both that democratic socialism can win and also demonstrates the willingness of the right (at least in some places) to jump to violence when electoralism fails.

Again, Morales cheated.
Notably, the transition of power didn't seem to be very violent - the military and police expressed a refusal to support him, and he and his pals fled to Mexico. It could've been violent if he remained in power anyway, though likely at the hands of a civilian or a militia, not the military or police.

It lays bare that their loyalty is to power and money rather than the people.

Morales's actions have made it clear that his loyalty is with power and his specific portion of Bolivia's indigenous population. Worst case scenario, loyalties shift laterally.

As for my thoughts on the original question, Morales cheating, Labour crashing and burning, and everything to do with Venezuela were major bruh moments for the Left globally. Not sure on the positive, though there certainly was some. TikTok?
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Byzconia
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Postby Byzconia » Wed Dec 18, 2019 8:38 pm

Proctopeo wrote:Blah blah blah le coup meme, more to the point is that mass death is only likely if Morales incites a civil war or gets someone to invade to put him back on the throne in office.

Or in other words, "It's okay to overthrow democratically-elected governments if they're lefties." And also, "Morales would be the real villain for urging people to fight against the forcible takeover of their country."

You're literally not even trying to hide your ideological biases, are you? I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Libertarians are the tankies of the right.

Not really, since his popular support dipped enough that he had to cheat to win again without contest... which almost worked, until people cried foul.

[citation needed]

Again, Morales cheated.

And, again, source, please?

Notably, the transition of power didn't seem to be very violent - the military and police expressed a refusal to support him, and he and his pals fled to Mexico. It could've been violent if he remained in power anyway, though likely at the hands of a civilian or a militia, not the military or police.

TIL the military forcing elected officials out of office under threat of forcefully removing them isn't violence. Also, the new "government" literally giving the military total indemnity to shoot protesters isn't violence either, I guess.

Morales's actions have made it clear that his loyalty is with power and his specific portion of Bolivia's indigenous population. Worst case scenario, loyalties shift laterally.

"His specific portion." Yes, namely, all of the people who voted for him. Also, indigenous people make up ~95% of Bolivia's population, so piss off with the dismissive tone.

As for my thoughts on the original question, Morales cheating,

Which you haven't provided a source for. (And I can almost guarantee the only link you're going to provide will be the OAS, or something else that cites it--because as we all know, a Cold War organization created explicitly to prevent the spread of leftism in Latin America is going to be the most trustworthy source on the subject.)

Labour crashing and burning,

Which was caused by their terrible position on Brexit.

[quote[and everything to do with Venezuela were major bruh moments for the Left globally.[/quote]
I don't even like Venezuela's government, but last time I checked they're still in power, after the US openly tried (and failed) to incite the military to overthrow the government.

Not sure on the positive, though there certainly was some.[/source]
Like a leftist being elected President of Argentina and the appointment of Finland's new prime minister.

TikTok?

The fuck does TikTok have to do with anything. Oh right, "Herr durr, internet memes."

EDIT: I wanted to add something else. Even if literally everything you said is true. So what? What's your argument? That two wrongs make a right? Even if Morales had openly and flagrantly rigged the elections, that still doesn't give the military the authority to overthrow him. Military coups are not a "weapon of democracy," it's a weapon against it.
Last edited by Byzconia on Wed Dec 18, 2019 8:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Civil libertarian, economic populist.
"When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read: 'All men are created equal except negroes, foreigners and Catholics.' When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretense of loving liberty — to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocrisy." - Abraham Lincoln

"Do not aim at what is impossible to attain, because in the quest for liberty we may fall into tyranny. Absolute liberty always leads to absolute power and among these two extremes is social liberty." - Simon Bolivar

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Torrocca
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Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Torrocca » Wed Dec 18, 2019 8:51 pm

Byzconia wrote:
Pasong Tirad wrote:The year's almost over. I want to spread a little positivity here and there. The international Left has had its victories and its defeats. From the Portuguese left gaining a lot of ground to the UK Labour getting their ass handed to them.

What do you think was the most important? Could be your favorite moment, could be what you think got (or should be getting) most of the world's attention, or it could be a defeat or a victory you think we can learn a lot from and do better in 2020.

I'm very proud of the Morales governments successes in Bolivia. Obviously the coup is a huge problem that's going to get ignored by the Western press and lead to thousands, if not millions, of deaths going forward, but we should also recognize that the coup itself was a direct result of the Movement for Socialism's success in terms of both policy and popular support. It showed both that democratic socialism can win and also demonstrates the willingness of the right (at least in some places) to jump to violence when electoralism fails. It lays bare that their loyalty is to power and money rather than the people.


The people, by and large, haven't given up on the Movement For Socialism nor Morales despite the coup. Hopefully, thanks to that, we'll be seeing Socialism's return to Bolivia soon.
Last edited by Torrocca on Wed Dec 18, 2019 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Byzconia
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Postby Byzconia » Wed Dec 18, 2019 8:58 pm

Torrocca wrote:
Byzconia wrote:I'm very proud of the Morales governments successes in Bolivia. Obviously the coup is a huge problem that's going to get ignored by the Western press and lead to thousands, if not millions, of deaths going forward, but we should also recognize that the coup itself was a direct result of the Movement for Socialism's success in terms of both policy and popular support. It showed both that democratic socialism can win and also demonstrates the willingness of the right (at least in some places) to jump to violence when electoralism fails. It lays bare that their loyalty is to power and money rather than the people.


The people, by and large, haven't given up on the Movement For Socialism nor Morales despite the coup. Hopefully, thanks to that, we'll be seeing Socialism's return to Bolivia soon.

Correct that they haven't given up, but the problem is that the new regime has the military on their side, so there's very little chance the population can effectively fight back. Despite our Libertarian friend's ideological blindness, he is correct that the likely outcome of resistance is a bloody and violent civil war a la Guatemala. Of course, I'm not saying the Bolivian people should just sit down and accept it, but as an ardent cynic and pessimist, I caution against hope.
Civil libertarian, economic populist.
"When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read: 'All men are created equal except negroes, foreigners and Catholics.' When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretense of loving liberty — to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocrisy." - Abraham Lincoln

"Do not aim at what is impossible to attain, because in the quest for liberty we may fall into tyranny. Absolute liberty always leads to absolute power and among these two extremes is social liberty." - Simon Bolivar

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Northern Davincia
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Northern Davincia » Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:05 pm

Torrocca wrote:
Byzconia wrote:I'm very proud of the Morales governments successes in Bolivia. Obviously the coup is a huge problem that's going to get ignored by the Western press and lead to thousands, if not millions, of deaths going forward, but we should also recognize that the coup itself was a direct result of the Movement for Socialism's success in terms of both policy and popular support. It showed both that democratic socialism can win and also demonstrates the willingness of the right (at least in some places) to jump to violence when electoralism fails. It lays bare that their loyalty is to power and money rather than the people.


The people, by and large, haven't given up on the Movement For Socialism nor Morales despite the coup. Hopefully, thanks to that, we'll be seeing Socialism's return to Bolivia soon.

They should save us the trouble and give up. I will be patient for the next election, however.
Hoppean Libertarian, Acolyte of von Mises, Protector of Our Sacred Liberties
Economic Left/Right: 9.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.05
Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."

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