LWDT 8: Hitting the Marx

[United Muscovite Nations]

Worth noting that most of the third world countries that developed successfully pursued a state-directed investment strategy rather than relying on the free market. The IMF method of modernization is an excellent display of the failure of laissez-faire economics.

[Totenborg]

We've seen your ideology in action here in Louisiana. Before Long, we didn't even have paved roads because folks implemented you way of thinking. That crap leads to nothing but poverty for the masses.

I see it enacted in Florida to greater effect.

Your way is also enacted all across the rest of the Deep South, and poverty is everywhere in that region. Out of control capitalism straight sucks. Empirically.

[Cekoviu]

I'm about ready to dump capitalism.

[Galloism]

I'm about ready to dump capitalism.

There's a reason I hate Christmas, unironically.

[Proctopeo]

I'm about ready to dump capitalism.

Who does Cardi B even appeal to?

[Cekoviu]

I'm about ready to dump capitalism.

Who does Cardi B even appeal to?

I don't know, but it must be somebody.

[Kubra]

I'm about ready to dump capitalism.

Who does Cardi B even appeal to?

The sort of people who vacation in the UAE but ain't brown.

[Byzconia]

It is when you believe that everyone who disagrees with you (not you, personally, I mean the "general you") is a hivemind with no individual autonomy. It's much easier than acknowledging that individual people have different beliefs even if they fall under the same label. As we all know, Muslims and Islamists are exactly the same, as are Marxist-Leninists and anarcho-communists. See? Literally the same people. /s

As Black Forest said:

The problem is all the “normal” ones tend to be quiet over contentious issues. If the loud mouths are all people see and hear; people assume.

Maybe it’s time to no longer sit out and simply dismiss the bad ones as not being “real” Christians?

Except feminism.

Except this argument is bullshit, because it puts the onus on completely innocent people to take responsibility for nutters. Sorry, but I believe in individualism, not guilt by association. By this logic, every single white male should apologize whenever one of our own commits rape. If a feminist suggested that to you, you'd be floored, wouldn't you? So why is this any different?

It's like when any Islamophobe gets on their soapbox and goes, "Well, why don't any of the so-called 'moderate Muslims' denounce the terrorists?!?!?!?!?!" Because it's not their fucking responsibility, that's why.

[Byzconia]

We've seen your ideology in action here in Louisiana. Before Long, we didn't even have paved roads because folks implemented you way of thinking. That crap leads to nothing but poverty for the masses.

I see it enacted in Florida to greater effect.

Florida is shit, tho. People I know from the Deep South literally insist that "Florida isn't the South" because they don't want to be associated with "America's wang."

[Galloism]

As Black Forest said:



Except feminism.

Except this argument is bullshit, because it puts the onus on completely innocent people to take responsibility for nutters. Sorry, but I believe in individualism, not guilt by association. By this logic, every single white male should apologize whenever one of our own commits rape. If a feminist suggested that to you, you'd be floored, wouldn't you? So why is this any different?

Honestly, I’ve heard exactly that or things like that way too many times to be floored anymore.

It's like when any Islamophobe gets on their soapbox and goes, "Well, why don't any of the so-called 'moderate Muslims' denounce the terrorists?!?!?!?!?!" Because it's not their fucking responsibility, that's why.

Cool. Except they have. Repeatedly. Loudly. Hell, the moderate Muslims give more tips to the FBI on Terrorists then basically anyone else.

[Byzconia]

Honestly, I’ve heard exactly that or things like that way too many times to be floored anymore.

The point still stands: it's a ridiculous thing for them to say.

Cool. Except they have. Repeatedly. Loudly. Hell, the moderate Muslims give more tips to the FBI on Terrorists then basically anyone else.

Which is irrelevant, because my post wasn't about whether they actually do it or not, it was about responsibility. I mean, good for them and all for doing it, but it's not their responsibility to do so.

[Galloism]

Honestly, I’ve heard exactly that or things like that way too many times to be floored anymore.

The point still stands: it's a ridiculous thing for them to say.

Cool. Except they have. Repeatedly. Loudly. Hell, the moderate Muslims give more tips to the FBI on Terrorists then basically anyone else.

Which is irrelevant, because my post wasn't about whether they actually do it or not, it was about responsibility. I mean, good for them and all for doing it, but it's not their responsibility to do so.

Sure. It’s not a responsibility. They don’t have to do it.

But if the only republican talking were Donald trump and his troupe of irrational sycophants, and you never see or hear about any others, and those are the ones making policy, one could be excused for thinking that’s a good representation of the Republican Party. You have no other experience or reference to draw from. That being said there other references to draw from regularly.

On the other hand, if I see someone wearing a KKK robe. I’m going to make certain assumptions. All documentation for Klan paints a group somewhere between violently racist and violently racist if they weren’t so comically incompetent. And if these guys want to take back the name of the Klan, they’re going to have to work extra hard:



Feminism lies somewhere between those two examples.

[Byzconia]

The point still stands: it's a ridiculous thing for them to say.


Which is irrelevant, because my post wasn't about whether they actually do it or not, it was about responsibility. I mean, good for them and all for doing it, but it's not their responsibility to do so.

Sure. It’s not a responsibility. They don’t have to do it.

But if the only republican talking were Donald trump and his troupe of irrational sycophants, and you never see or hear about any others, and those are the ones making policy, one could be excused for thinking that’s a good representation of the Republican Party. You have no other experience or reference to draw from. That being said there other references to draw from regularly.

On the other hand, if I see someone wearing a KKK robe. I’m going to make certain assumptions. All documentation for Klan paints a group somewhere between violently racist and violently racist if they weren’t so comically incompetent. And if these guys want to take back the name of the Klan, they’re going to have to work extra hard:



Feminism lies somewhere between those two examples.

Which is an entirely unfalisifiable claim, because it's based on your personal experiences with feminists. I've seen plenty of feminists say stupid bigoted shit against men, and I've also seen other feminists call those feminists out for it. I'm not going to try and tell you that your experiences were wrong or anything like that, but I am going to tell you that personal experience is a terrible way of gathering information because of how narrow it is.

Also, bonus points for comparing feminists to an actual terrorist group that has murdered people. That definitely doesn't make your argument seem like it's in bad faith. Also, it's a false equivocation anyway, because the KKK is an actual organization. Feminism isn't. The same goes for your Republican analogy above. Again, this is all based on the idea that feminists are some evil, man-hating hivemind, whether you realize it or not. Feminism isn't an organization with a manifesto/platform that works together to achieve its particular goal(s). Nor is there any organization that can claim to act as such for feminists. It's just an unorganized group of people who agree with the idea of, according to Marriam-Webster, "the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes." Anything beyond that comes down to the individual. Hence why my comparison to a religion (Islam) and political ideology (Communism) is more accurate--because both of those types of things can be described in roughly the same terms (in fact, feminism literally is a political ideology). Fuck, even Anonymous would've been a more accurate comparison than the fucking Klan.

[Galloism]

Sure. It’s not a responsibility. They don’t have to do it.

But if the only republican talking were Donald trump and his troupe of irrational sycophants, and you never see or hear about any others, and those are the ones making policy, one could be excused for thinking that’s a good representation of the Republican Party. You have no other experience or reference to draw from. That being said there other references to draw from regularly.

On the other hand, if I see someone wearing a KKK robe. I’m going to make certain assumptions. All documentation for Klan paints a group somewhere between violently racist and violently racist if they weren’t so comically incompetent. And if these guys want to take back the name of the Klan, they’re going to have to work extra hard:

(Image)

Feminism lies somewhere between those two examples.

Which is an entirely unfalisifiable claim, because it's based on your personal experiences with feminists. I've seen plenty of feminists say stupid bigoted shit against men, and I've also seen other feminists call those feminists out for it. I'm not going to try and tell you that your experiences were wrong or anything like that, but I am going to tell you that personal experience is a terrible way of gathering information because of how narrow it is.

Also, bonus points for comparing feminists to an actual terrorist group that has murdered people. That definitely doesn't make your argument seem like it's in bad faith. Also, it's a false equivocation anyway, because the KKK is an actual organization. Feminism isn't. The same goes for your Republican analogy above. Again, this is all based on the idea that feminists are some evil, man-hating hivemind, whether you realize it or not. Feminism isn't an organization with a manifesto/platform that works together to achieve its particular goal(s). Nor is there any organization that can claim to act as such for feminists. It's just an unorganized group of people who agree with the idea of, according to Marriam-Webster, "the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes." Anything beyond that comes down to the individual. Hence why my comparison to a religion (Islam) and political ideology (Communism) is more accurate--because both of those types of things can be described in roughly the same terms (in fact, feminism literally is a political ideology). Fuck, even Anonymous would've been a more accurate comparison than the fucking Klan.

The klan is a fun comparison for another reason - it’s a political ideology not a group or organization (in fact, there are dozens of groups that make up the “klan”, and anyone can claim to be a member, and groups often form and split spontaneously), and, more importantly, there’s some strange parts.

Like how the Imperial Wizard of the Traditionalist American Knights of the KKK condemned the racist shooting in South Carolina:

After the South Carolina carnage, Ancona wrote me that “My thoughts and prayers are with those whose lives were tragically taken by this lunatic and I pray that God will bring peace to those families, the community, and our Nation,” said the Imperial Wizard of the KKK of the families of the murdered black congregants. “It literally made me sick to my stomach. Those poor families….”

“Our country is in bad shape and we need to pull together. The best way for our enemies to defeat us, is to divide and conquer. Why are we making their job easier by us destroying one another?” asked Daryl Davis.

“What this sick individual did was a heinous act that did nothing to promote any viewpoint that he was trying to advance. If he thought he was promoting or advancing any cause for white people he was sadly mistaken,” said the Imperial Wizard. “What he did guarantee is that his extremist ideas will be pushed even further to the fringe and will guarantee that those with his kind of ideals and agenda will not get their radical views heard nor espoused by anyone.”

https://www.nate-thayer.com/kkk-black-m ... -massacre/

See, you didn’t know there were Klan organizations that condemned the violence and sympathized with the black families killed. Something you had no awareness of. That doesn’t change the hate in the overall ideology however.

You’re wrong about me, btw. I’m a former feminist - card carrying (so to speak) for years. My opinion is actually based on careful study and reflection rather than personal experience.

I know there’s good feminists out there. But given the evidence, people could be excused for thinking otherwise.

[Pasong Tirad]

DuTeRtE iS a sOcIaLiSt

[Duvniask]

I'm about ready to dump capitalism.

I can feel your anger. It gives you focus, makes you stronger.

[Ostroeuropa]

Which is an entirely unfalisifiable claim, because it's based on your personal experiences with feminists. I've seen plenty of feminists say stupid bigoted shit against men, and I've also seen other feminists call those feminists out for it. I'm not going to try and tell you that your experiences were wrong or anything like that, but I am going to tell you that personal experience is a terrible way of gathering information because of how narrow it is.

Also, bonus points for comparing feminists to an actual terrorist group that has murdered people. That definitely doesn't make your argument seem like it's in bad faith. Also, it's a false equivocation anyway, because the KKK is an actual organization. Feminism isn't. The same goes for your Republican analogy above. Again, this is all based on the idea that feminists are some evil, man-hating hivemind, whether you realize it or not. Feminism isn't an organization with a manifesto/platform that works together to achieve its particular goal(s). Nor is there any organization that can claim to act as such for feminists. It's just an unorganized group of people who agree with the idea of, according to Marriam-Webster, "the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes." Anything beyond that comes down to the individual. Hence why my comparison to a religion (Islam) and political ideology (Communism) is more accurate--because both of those types of things can be described in roughly the same terms (in fact, feminism literally is a political ideology). Fuck, even Anonymous would've been a more accurate comparison than the fucking Klan.

How about people who wave the confederate flag?
Sure some might be alright, but it's still a symbol of hate because of the damage done by institutions using that symbol.

And when you evaluate feminist institutions and their policies, it's not a good look. It's a pretty terrible one actually given the range of anti-male policies enacted.

(Just three examples though there are many more; The Duluth model, entrenching the sentencing gap in the UK, due process violations.).

Calling yourself a feminist and not being a total raging cunt to men is still like waving a confederate flag around and refusing to accept you're doing something pretty racist, at the very least.

At the very least it demonstrates a lack of sufficient knowledge on mens issues, or a lack of sufficient empathy for those suffering from them.

And trust me, this "Very bestest least shite" kind of feminist?
They're extremely rare.

Most *think* they are this, but have their heads full of misandrist propaganda they repeat, such as lopsided rape statistics, which demonize men and erase their issues. The terminology of the movement is also misandrist, so it's like arguing you're not all a bunch of racists if you go around using words like kike and nigger all the time to describe Jews and Black people, despite those groups objecting.

(Self-demonstrating example: See the "Feminist subhumanity" problem; The majority of society understands the problem with terms like toxic masculinity. If we take the average level of this understanding as the human average, we can conclude that feminists are sub-human in their understanding and awareness. The problem of feminists being subhuman permeates their lexicon and behavior. Why are you so angry? You just don't understand the definition behind the term feminist subhuman.).

So at the very least, you've got some confederate flag waving person (Identifies as feminist) going around telling Kikes and Niggers they are his friends and he cares about them (Using feminist terminology.). Bonus points for the majority of them saying "I care about us getting along, and that's why we need to address the fact 90% of Murders are done by niggers." (Using faulty misandrist statistics they learned from the movement.).


But nah mate, that's obviously not a racist. I mean, they mean well, right? And anyway, lots of people behave that way. A wide range of diverse individuals, some of them are democrats, some republicans, some libertarians, some don't vote, and so on! They're not members of an organization or anything, so you're being unfair to them.

It's laughable how ridiculous the defences of the feminist movement are when you properly drill down to their behaviors.

That's not even going into how the foundational principles of feminism are to enact epistemic injustice against men by ruling out misandry as a topic of discussion, a state of affairs that lasted over 100 years before even *some* of them were forced to get a grip and even then they're still using concepts created which enforce epistemic injustice like "Patriarchy".

[Asherahan]

So does the Left lean towards the Sith or Jedi?

[Proctopeo]

So does the Left lean towards the Sith or Jedi?

A case could easily be made for either.
Personally I'd say the left, taken as a whole, leans more Sith, what with the glorification of wanton violence and support for giving the state more authority.

[Salus Maior]

So does the Left lean towards the Sith or Jedi?

A case could easily be made for either.
Personally I'd say the left, taken as a whole, leans more Sith, what with the glorification of wanton violence and support for giving the state more authority.

The Sith are more like Anarchists or Fascists. Will to power and extreme individualism.

[Cekoviu]

A case could easily be made for either.
Personally I'd say the left, taken as a whole, leans more Sith, what with the glorification of wanton violence and support for giving the state more authority.

The Sith are more like Anarchists or Fascists. Will to power and extreme individualism.

"group X is like group Y or the exact opposite of group Y"

[Hanafuridake]

A case could easily be made for either.
Personally I'd say the left, taken as a whole, leans more Sith, what with the glorification of wanton violence and support for giving the state more authority.

The Sith are more like Anarchists or Fascists. Will to power and extreme individualism.

The Sith v. Jedi is more akin to the Dionysian vs. Apollonian than it is equivalent to political movements, imho. The Jedi themselves seem to politically have arrangements similar to medieval Tibet (monastic feudalism).

[The Black Forrest]

As Black Forest said:



Except feminism.

Except this argument is bullshit, because it puts the onus on completely innocent people to take responsibility for nutters. Sorry, but I believe in individualism, not guilt by association. By this logic, every single white male should apologize whenever one of our own commits rape. If a feminist suggested that to you, you'd be floored, wouldn't you? So why is this any different?

It's like when any Islamophobe gets on their soapbox and goes, "Well, why don't any of the so-called 'moderate Muslims' denounce the terrorists?!?!?!?!?!" Because it's not their fucking responsibility, that's why.

There is the problem. If the nutters are always in the camera and making the news; silence doesn’t really give the “normals” the right to say “how dare you call us *whatever*”. This is a thing of Religion in general. I worked with Muslims a couple companies ago and when all the terror talk was going down, they said “People can’t say bad things about Islam; they weren’t real Muslims”

There is a growing negativity towards religion. The people who actually follow the teachings have to rethink their ideas and address the image being presented by the nutters.

[Hanafuridake]

The Sith are more like Anarchists or Fascists. Will to power and extreme individualism.

"group X is like group Y or the exact opposite of group Y"

I mean, philosophically speaking, anarchists and fascists weren't that different from each other. Mussolini was raised in a socialist home, learning about anarchist heroes on his Red father's knee. Even after he split from the Socialist Party and started the fascisti, he openly admired Bakunin, Stirner, etc. Both him and Emma Goldman were admirers of Nietzsche.

[Byzconia]

The klan is a fun comparison for another reason - it’s a political ideology not a group or organization (in fact, there are dozens of groups that make up the “klan”, and anyone can claim to be a member, and groups often form and split spontaneously), and, more importantly, there’s some strange parts.

The Klan is absolutely not an ideology in even the slightest meaning of that word. It's an organization with splinter groups. The Klan's ideology is white supremacy and American nativism. Also, no, not "anyone can claim to be a member." Even factoring in splinter groups, they're still actual organizations that have set requirements for membership. I could literally go around telling people I'm a member of the "North Carolina Baptist Klan Confederation" (which I'm assuming doesn't actually exist, but wouldn't really be that surprised if did), but if you actually asked the leader of said Confederation and he said, "No, he's not a member and has never been to a single meeting" (and confirmed it by looking at membership/attendance rolls), then I'm very obviously not a member regardless of my claims.

Like how the Imperial Wizard of the Traditionalist American Knights of the KKK condemned the racist shooting in South Carolina:

After the South Carolina carnage, Ancona wrote me that “My thoughts and prayers are with those whose lives were tragically taken by this lunatic and I pray that God will bring peace to those families, the community, and our Nation,” said the Imperial Wizard of the KKK of the families of the murdered black congregants. “It literally made me sick to my stomach. Those poor families….”

“Our country is in bad shape and we need to pull together. The best way for our enemies to defeat us, is to divide and conquer. Why are we making their job easier by us destroying one another?” asked Daryl Davis.

“What this sick individual did was a heinous act that did nothing to promote any viewpoint that he was trying to advance. If he thought he was promoting or advancing any cause for white people he was sadly mistaken,” said the Imperial Wizard. “What he did guarantee is that his extremist ideas will be pushed even further to the fringe and will guarantee that those with his kind of ideals and agenda will not get their radical views heard nor espoused by anyone.”

https://www.nate-thayer.com/kkk-black-m ... -massacre/

See, you didn’t know there were Klan organizations that condemned the violence and sympathized with the black families killed. Something you had no awareness of. That doesn’t change the hate in the overall ideology however.

No, I actually did know that. The funny thing about this is that it supports my argument, not yours.

A) It demonstrates that even within an actual hierarchical organization you can have differences in opinion. Imagine how much wider that variation must be in a loose, unorganized group of people who happen to share a label.

B) Love the little comment of "hate in the overall ideology," as if I wouldn't notice that. The Klan, as an organization, is very open and adamant about its belief in white supremacy and racial segregation, even if some (or fuck, even most, I don't know) members/splinters are opposed to using violence to accomplish said goal. Meanwhile, where is this feminist organization that states that the goal of feminism is the subjugation of men and elevation of women? And how many self-identified feminists support said organization? Still a false equivocation. Not to mention, again, your entire attitude towards feminism is built on the strawman that feminism is about hating men, because you can point to quotes by radfems and misandrists proclaiming how much they hate men. In other news, I've now decided that all anti-feminists are Elliot Rodger. Do I have evidence to back it up? Sure, here's a bunch of "anti-SJW" types saying misogynistic shit on Reddit. Is this a fair or accurate representation? Probably not, but it supports my narrative, which means I'm right and anyone who disagrees with me is doing a No True Scotsman.

Am I playing this game right?

You’re wrong about me, btw.

Literally nothing you've said would indicate this to be so.

I’m a former feminist

And Lee Strobel is a "former atheist." Doesn't stop him from strawmanning and misrepresenting atheists.

- card carrying (so to speak) for years. My opinion is actually based on careful study and reflection rather than personal experience.[/quote]
Okay, let's check out your links:

First one is dead.

The second one is both interesting and disturbing. And it certainly indicates that said centers need a massive change in their internal culture. That said, the study itself in noway supports your argument that they are "mainly run by feminist groups." That's an assertion. And regardless, even if it is true, so what? Again, you continue to miss the point we've been trying to get across to you. If 100 feminists were in a room, and 99 of them said, "Men are evil and should all be enslaved." Would that mean the 1 feminist who disagrees is now a bad person despite their disagreement, just because they also identify as a feminist? I really don't understand how you can't see the similarities between this line of thinking and Fox News claiming that all socialists are secret Stalinists who want to throw everyone into Gulags. It also reminds me of anti-civil rights whites in the '60s saying the NAACP and Dr. King were the "real racists." It's literally the same logic and is an extremely unhealthy way to think about other people (also dehumanizing, because it's literally reducing people to labels and associations).

The rest of the links are all basically making the same argument as the above: some prominent feminists have done bad things and now all feminists are responsible for it. See above for my response.

Also, from your post over there.

I'm looking at what feminism has done as a movement, not what one loudmouth does.

What movement? Again. Not. A. Hive. Mind. Getting real sick of this "guilty by association" bullshit. If all of those links represent feminism then r/MGTOW and the various incel subreddits that keep getting banned represent anti-feminism.

If you can't respect other people's individuality, then I have no reason to respect yours.

I know there’s good feminists out there.

"I know there are good feminists."

*spends several posts explaining why feminism--and by extension, feminists--is evil.*

These two things are mutually exclusive. Pick one.

But given the evidence, people could be excused for thinking otherwise.

You mean, given cherry-picked evidence that "proves" your pre-conceived beliefs? People who don't like feminism are going to intentionally pick anything and everything they can to make feminism look as bad as possible. This is known as confirmation bias. Of course, people who like feminism are going to do likewise. Confirmation bias is not exclusive to any one group.

The point remains unchanged, however: feminism already has a set definition, just like any other ideology. Though, some minor aspects may change, the core remains the same: equality between sexes. Normally, I'm not a prescriptivist when it comes to words, but religions and ideologies are one area where I make an exception (because otherwise, the actual names would be completely irrelevant, which kind of defeats the purpose for having them in the first place). Christians believe Jesus is the Son of God and the Messiah, Communists believe in common ownership of the means of production, liberals believe in private enterprise and capitalism, and feminists believe in equality between the sexes. Those are the definitions of those words and they are absolutely, inviolably not changed by the actions of their self-proclaimed followers.

If I allowed Christians themselves to color my understanding of Christianity, I'd be completely ignorant as to its actual precepts. As it currently stands, I understand its beliefs, but reject them due to various disagreements both scientific and philosophical. But even then, I don't strawman and I don't misrepresent them (I may still misunderstand some things now and again, but happily adjust when corrected), and will intercede if I see anyone else do so, because adequately understand other people's beliefs is important. I also get that it's kind of difficult for feminism exactly because there is no equivalent to the Bible or the Communist Manifesto to lay out what they believe (although, the latter is hardly the ultimate authority on Communism, and many different sects of Christianity have different versions of the Bible, as well), but that's all the more reason to understand the individual undercurrents that permeate it.

EDIT: And by all means, do continue to call out the actions of individual feminists who act stupid (I do), but I'd simply ask to not ascribe their actions to all of us.