LWDT 8: Hitting the Marx

[Kubra]

Gentlemen of culture are too humble to brag.

Hey Lefties, here's a question: Which ostensibly Left-Wing Regime was most Right-Wing? Why?

Cambodia, full stop. North Korea, distant second.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Yeah, that reason is they don't even have an idea of what socialism means lol.

No it isn't. It's abundantly obvious, however, that The Hill doesn't have an idea of what Socialism means since it's trying to play off "gov't ownership of some parts of the economy" as the academic definition of Socialism.

I eagerly await your sources that most Americans actually know what socialism is, because everything I've ever seen says exactly the opposite. It seems like your own idealism and personal desire for change has made you believe a great many people share it.

Hey Lefties, here's a question: Which ostensibly Left-Wing Regime was most Right-Wing? Why?

Cambodia, full stop. North Korea, distant second.

I'd put Best Korea first personally.

[Torrocca]

No it isn't. It's abundantly obvious, however, that The Hill doesn't have an idea of what Socialism means since it's trying to play off "gov't ownership of some parts of the economy" as the academic definition of Socialism.

I eagerly await your sources that most Americans actually know what socialism is, because everything I've ever seen says exactly the opposite. It seems like your own idealism and personal desire for change has made you believe a great many people share it.

I'm not claiming most Americans know what Socialism is. I'm claiming that the majority of the Americans who say they support Socialism know what it is.

[Washington Resistance Army]

I eagerly await your sources that most Americans actually know what socialism is, because everything I've ever seen says exactly the opposite. It seems like your own idealism and personal desire for change has made you believe a great many people share it.

I'm not claiming most Americans know what Socialism is. I'm claiming that the majority of the Americans who say they support Socialism know what it is.

Even that isn't a well supported assertion. Some 40% of Americans support "socialism" in one form or another, but Americans have a wide range of opinions on what exactly the word means.

Points to the 6% who think socialism means talking to people

[Torrocca]

I'm not claiming most Americans know what Socialism is. I'm claiming that the majority of the Americans who say they support Socialism know what it is.

Even that isn't a well supported assertion. Some 40% of Americans support "socialism" in one form or another, but Americans have a wide range of opinions on what exactly the word means.

Points to the 6% who think socialism means talking to people

Yet again you're citing a poll which makes literally no fucking mention of Socialism's actual definition (social ownership of the means of production), which means the methodology is flawed.

Even then, I doubt the people responding with asinine shit like "muh socializing with people" are the ones supportive of Socialism.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Even that isn't a well supported assertion. Some 40% of Americans support "socialism" in one form or another, but Americans have a wide range of opinions on what exactly the word means.

Points to the 6% who think socialism means talking to people

Yet again you're citing a poll which makes literally no fucking mention of Socialism's actual definition (social ownership of the means of production), which means the methodology is flawed.

Even then, I doubt the people responding with asinine shit like "muh socializing with people" are the ones supportive of Socialism.

The second poll asked people what the word meant to them. If we know roughly 4 in 10 Americans support "socialism" and you contend that the people who support it know what it is then we should be getting around 40% giving the dictionary definition of socialism. That it didn't happen is telling for how many Americans actually know of and support real socialism.

[Page]

Even that isn't a well supported assertion. Some 40% of Americans support "socialism" in one form or another, but Americans have a wide range of opinions on what exactly the word means.

Points to the 6% who think socialism means talking to people

Yet again you're citing a poll which makes literally no fucking mention of Socialism's actual definition (social ownership of the means of production), which means the methodology is flawed.

Even then, I doubt the people responding with asinine shit like "muh socializing with people" are the ones supportive of Socialism.

Even a poll that mentions the word socialism would be flawed because the word has been successfully poisoned by a century of propaganda. Framing is everything. Ask people "do you want the government to take over health care" and most will say no, but ask them if they support Medicare for All and they will say yes.

[Torrocca]

Yet again you're citing a poll which makes literally no fucking mention of Socialism's actual definition (social ownership of the means of production), which means the methodology is flawed.

Even then, I doubt the people responding with asinine shit like "muh socializing with people" are the ones supportive of Socialism.

The second poll asked people what the word meant to them. If we know roughly 4 in 10 Americans support "socialism" and you contend that the people who support it know what it is then we should be getting around 40% giving the dictionary definition of socialism. That it didn't happen is telling for how many Americans actually know of and support real socialism.

Or, more simply, the respondents to the second poll weren't the respondents to the first poll, and, given the random nature of polling, it's likely that there weren't 40% of respondents supportive of Socialism. Any number of things could've easily factored into it, including Gallup interpreting somebody saying "Socialism means social ownership of the means of production" or something akin to that as government control of the MoP or equality, assuming it was a poll with open responses. The poll doesn't at all explain its methodology for how it categorized people's responses.

[Torrocca]

Yet again you're citing a poll which makes literally no fucking mention of Socialism's actual definition (social ownership of the means of production), which means the methodology is flawed.

Even then, I doubt the people responding with asinine shit like "muh socializing with people" are the ones supportive of Socialism.

Even a poll that mentions the word socialism would be flawed because the word has been successfully poisoned by a century of propaganda. Framing is everything. Ask people "do you want the government to take over health care" and most will say no, but ask them if they support Medicare for All and they will say yes.

Exactly, that's also a major factor in these polls. If it was framed as, "social ownership of the means of production," "democratic ownership of the means of production," "workplace democracy," or something like that, I'd more than imagine there'd be a much different and likely much more positive response.

[Jolthig]

Lenin was truly closest to socialism. At least in the early stages of his revolution when his Soviets took over Petrograd as soviets were democratic communes.

[Crysuko]

Even a poll that mentions the word socialism would be flawed because the word has been successfully poisoned by a century of propaganda. Framing is everything. Ask people "do you want the government to take over health care" and most will say no, but ask them if they support Medicare for All and they will say yes.

Exactly, that's also a major factor in these polls. If it was framed as, "social ownership of the means of production," "democratic ownership of the means of production," "workplace democracy," or something like that, I'd more than imagine there'd be a much different and likely much more positive response.

socialism is a tainted word, which is why I stick with Syndicalism and appropriate the definitions of social ownership, workplace democracy etc. it's a bait and switch but with the best intentions

[Democratic Communist Federation]

I'm not claiming most Americans know what Socialism is. I'm claiming that the majority of the Americans who say they support Socialism know what it is.

Not sure about that. These days, a lot of U.S. [corrected typo] social democrats, folks who support Bernie Sanders and AOC, call themselves socialists. Historically, social democrats, progressives or New Dealers, broke away from democratic socialism.

[Jolthig]

I'm not claiming most Americans know what Socialism is. I'm claiming that the majority of the Americans who say they support Socialism know what it is.

Not sure about that. These days, a lot of U.S. [corrected typo] social democrats, folks who support Bernie Sanders and AOC, call themselves socialists. Historically, social democrats, progressives or New Dealers, broke away from democratic socialism.

Actually, social democrats themselves were democratic socialists or reformist Marxists. Some social democrats were also revolutionary Marxists. Vladimir Lenin himself once called himself a social Democrat.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

Actually, social democrats themselves were democratic socialists or reformist Marxists. Some social democrats were also revolutionary Marxists. Vladimir Lenin himself once called himself a social Democrat.

That is an earlier usage of social democracy (mostly in Germany). Modern social democracy was formed about a 100 years ago when social democrats broke away from democratic socialists. Social democrats wanted to reform capitalism - to make it supposedly fairer. Some democratic socialists, on the other hand, were (and are) Marxists. Others are not. Some democratic socialists are actually communists (including libertarian communists). In many cases, they call themselves democratic socialists [typo edit] in order to appeal to people who would be turned off by the term communism.

[The East Marches II]

Case in point.

Your theory is shit and your practice is even worse. Memes are all you've got.

Memes are a hot hand at the moment :^)

I prefer it to theory myself. You can win with maymays.

Edit: credit to Liri for being one of the few of your sort who can grasp and participate in meme culture. Kubra as well.

[Jolthig]

Actually, social democrats themselves were democratic socialists or reformist Marxists. Some social democrats were also revolutionary Marxists. Vladimir Lenin himself once called himself a social Democrat.

That is an earlier usage of social democracy (mostly in Germany). Modern social democracy was formed about a 100 years ago when social democrats broke away from democratic socialists. Social democrats wanted to reform capitalism - to make it supposedly fairer. Some democratic socialists, on the other hand, were (and are) Marxists. Others are not. Some democratic socialists are actually communists (including libertarian communists). In many cases, they call themselves democratic socialists [typo edit] in order to appeal to people who would be turned off by the term communism.

So then, today's social democrats are not true social Democrats, but rather welfare capitalists which is why I dropped the term social Democrat from myself.

[Cekoviu]

That is an earlier usage of social democracy (mostly in Germany). Modern social democracy was formed about a 100 years ago when social democrats broke away from democratic socialists. Social democrats wanted to reform capitalism - to make it supposedly fairer. Some democratic socialists, on the other hand, were (and are) Marxists. Others are not. Some democratic socialists are actually communists (including libertarian communists). In many cases, they call themselves democratic socialists [typo edit] in order to appeal to people who would be turned off by the term communism.

So then, today's social democrats are not true social Democrats, but rather welfare capitalists which is why I dropped the term social Democrat from myself.

That's way better than before tbh.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

So then, today's social democrats are not true social Democrats, but rather welfare capitalists which is why I dropped the term social Democrat from myself.

I am not sure what true would refer to. My point is that the word has referred to at least two distinct perspectives.

[Jolthig]

So then, today's social democrats are not true social Democrats, but rather welfare capitalists which is why I dropped the term social Democrat from myself.

I am not sure what true would refer to. My point is that the word has referred to at least two distinct perspectives.

Don't get me wrong. I understand. I just I'm saying from my observation of the history of the term, social democracy. One refers to Marxist communists of Lenin, another to German Reformist Eduard Beinstein, and today's Nordic model.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

Don't get me wrong. I understand. I just I'm saying from my observation of the history of the term, social democracy. One refers to Marxist communists of Lenin, another to German Reformist Eduard Beinstein, and today's Nordic model.

Bernstein used the term evolutionary socialism, not social democracy. In Germany [typo], at that time, social democrats were communists (like Rosa Luxemburg). Bernstein and Rosa were political enemies. Later on, when social democracy was redefined into something like New Deal progressivism, some of the new social democrats looked to Bernstein as an inspiration.

[West Leas Oros 2]

Don't get me wrong. I understand. I just I'm saying from my observation of the history of the term, social democracy. One refers to Marxist communists of Lenin, another to German Reformist Eduard Beinstein, and today's Nordic model.

Bernstein used the term evolutionary socialism, not social democracy. In Germany [typo], at that time, social democrats were communists (like Rosa Luxemburg). Bernstein and Rosa were political enemies. Later on, when social democracy was redefined into something like New Deal progressivism, some of the new social democrats looked to Bernstein as an inspiration.

Most Americans say "socialism" when they mean New Deal progressivism, so when I hear about a "growing socialist movement in the US", i'm definitely skeptical.

[Jolthig]

Don't get me wrong. I understand. I just I'm saying from my observation of the history of the term, social democracy. One refers to Marxist communists of Lenin, another to German Reformist Eduard Beinstein, and today's Nordic model.

Bernstein used the term evolutionary socialism, not social democracy. In Germany [typo], at that time, social democrats were communists (like Rosa Luxemburg). Bernstein and Rosa were political enemies. Later on, when social democracy was redefined into something like New Deal progressivism, some of the new social democrats looked to Bernstein as an inspiration.

Huh, interesting. Thanks!

Bernstein used the term evolutionary socialism, not social democracy. In Germany [typo], at that time, social democrats were communists (like Rosa Luxemburg). Bernstein and Rosa were political enemies. Later on, when social democracy was redefined into something like New Deal progressivism, some of the new social democrats looked to Bernstein as an inspiration.

Most Americans say "socialism" when they mean New Deal progressivism, so when I hear about a "growing socialist movement in the US", i'm definitely skeptical.

Same here. I don't consider Sanders a socialist but a new Dealer like FDR. America does need another FDR.

[Evil Dictators Happyland]

Bernstein used the term evolutionary socialism, not social democracy. In Germany [typo], at that time, social democrats were communists (like Rosa Luxemburg). Bernstein and Rosa were political enemies. Later on, when social democracy was redefined into something like New Deal progressivism, some of the new social democrats looked to Bernstein as an inspiration.

Most Americans say "socialism" when they mean New Deal progressivism, so when I hear about a "growing socialist movement in the US", i'm definitely skeptical.

To be fair, most Americans have been told their whole life that New Deal progressivism is bad because it's socialism, so associating New Deal progressivism with socialism isn't exactly unique to the "socialists" in question.

[West Leas Oros 2]

Most Americans say "socialism" when they mean New Deal progressivism, so when I hear about a "growing socialist movement in the US", i'm definitely skeptical.

To be fair, most Americans have been told their whole life that New Deal progressivism is bad because it's socialism, so associating New Deal progressivism with socialism isn't exactly unique to the "socialists" in question.

I didn't say it was. There's a bipartisan misuse of the word socialism, and beyond the parties even, most ideological positions in America can't define socialism

[Washington Resistance Army]

Same here. I don't consider Sanders a socialist but a new Dealer like FDR. America does need another FDR.

I didn't know you became an accelerationist, though I guess I do agree we could use another FDR to finally knock the whole rotten system down.