LWDT 8: Hitting the Marx

[Nakena]

Backrolled primarily by authoritarians and totalitarians.

Wrong.

Backrolled by people who have a different understanding and idea of the constitution. They are not authoritarians and totalitarians. They believe usually in a minimal role of the state. Most of them actually believe in the founding ideals of the United States. Just in a different way than you do.

I don't believe in the idea of a benevolent authoritarian of totalitarian government as they've never actually existed, and any example of one that I've seen has always had an air of malevolence beneath whatever veneer of "positivity" they may be trying to present.

If you would have read my posts here and elsewhere you'd knew that i didn argued for a totalitarian government. In fact I always have been opposed to totalitarian beliefs system and indoctrinations.

You projecting your fears onto me, that is like being programmed reflexes. Something totalitarian worldviews relay upon in their adherents btw.

[The Greater Ohio Valley]

Wrong.

Backrolled by people who have a different understanding and idea of the constitution. They are not authoritarians and totalitarians. They believe usually in a minimal role of the state. Most of them actually believe in the founding ideals of the United States. Just in a different way than you do.

American constitutional libertarians who believe in the minimal role of the state aren't the ones primarily advocating for the rollback of rights of marginalized members of society, right-wing mostly religious authoritarians are. Actual Libertarians don't generally try to deprive LGBT persons of their right to exist or to marry, restrict racial minorities ability to vote or demonize those of other religious faiths.

If you would have read my posts here and elsewhere you'd knew that i didn argued for a totalitarian government. In fact I always have been opposed to totalitarian beliefs system and indoctrinations.

Did you not say that a Starship Troopers Terran/Citizen/whatever Federation-esque government would be a better alternative to what we already have? Correct me if I'm wrong though but that system of government seems very totalitarian since it's lead by an autocratic sky marshal and restricts the right to vote for needlessly arbitrary reasons.

You projecting your fears onto me, that is like being programmed reflexes. Something totalitarian worldviews relay upon in their adherents btw.

If you say so.

[Nakena]

American constitutional libertarians who believe in the minimal role of the state aren't the ones primarily advocating for the rollback of rights of marginalized members of society, right-wing mostly religious authoritarians are. Actual Libertarians don't generally try to deprive LGBT persons of their right to exist or to marry, restrict racial minorities ability to vote or demonize those of other religious faiths.

I am not so sure about that. It often appears though as if one things leads to another.

I am in either case no friend of libertarians or the religious right for sure. ^^

The real problem with the libertarians in general is lack of empathy. Lots of individuals aren't able for their own reasons to fit into their idea of how things should be. Its something that doesnt appears in their calculation or is being brushed aside. And then of course the "not my problem but muh frees" attitude.

Did you not say that a Starship Troopers Terran/Citizen/whatever Federation-esque government would be a better alternative to what we already have? Correct me if I'm wrong though but that system of government seems very totalitarian since it's lead by an autocratic sky marshal and restricts the right to vote for needlessly arbitrary reasons.

The book is different, its very clearly and in detail described by Heinlein. The way you tell me it here its a little like that in the movie which is kinda trash entertainment and a parody of fascism. I wouldn use that as reference.

If you say so.

Yes, you give me this impression.

[The Greater Ohio Valley]

I am not so sure about that. It often appears though as if one things leads to another.

I am in either case no friend of libertarians or the religious right for sure. ^^

The real problem with the libertarians in general is lack of empathy. Lots of individuals aren't able for their own reasons to fit into their idea of how things should be. Its something that doesnt appears in their calculation or is being brushed aside. And then of course the "not my problem but muh frees" attitude.

In my experience, seeing what the American right has been saying and doing or attempt in doing over the years, libertarians, or at least not ones who actually adhere to libertarian ideals, aren't the ones who advocate for restricting rights, it's mostly authoritarians masquerading as conservatives within the GOP.

I'm not either, I'm not a fan of the whole minarchist small .gov thing libertarians want or proclaim to want.

The book is different, its very clearly and in detail described by Heinlein. The way you tell me it here its a little like that in the movie which is kinda trash entertainment and a parody of fascism. I wouldn use that as reference.

I see, I never read the book or really had the interest to, I might have to change that and pick it up sometime then.

Yes, you give me this impression.

Then I truly apologize if I gave that your impression, it wasn't my intention to project anything onto you. Friends?

[Nakena]

In my experience, seeing what the American right has been saying and doing or attempt in doing over the years, libertarians, or at least not ones who actually adhere to libertarian ideals, aren't the ones who advocate for restricting rights, it's mostly authoritarians masquerading as conservatives within the GOP.

I'm not either, I'm not a fan of the whole minarchist small .gov thing libertarians want or proclaim to want.

I believe most conservative SCOTUS judges are being recruited from the Federalist Society which follows an originalist approach in their philosophy. But thats a huge topic of its own really.

Sometimes though theres more nastier intentions at work. Specifically at lower levels.

I see, I never read the book or really had the interest to, I might have to change that and pick it up sometime then.

Yeah it can be sometimes quite a difference.

Then I truly apologize if I gave that your impression, it wasn't my intention to project anything onto you. Friends?

[Kowani]

Wrong.

Backrolled by people who have a different understanding and idea of the constitution. They are not authoritarians and totalitarians. They believe usually in a minimal role of the state. Most of them actually believe in the founding ideals of the United States. Just in a different way than you do.

American constitutional libertarians who believe in the minimal role of the state aren't the ones primarily advocating for the rollback of rights of marginalized members of society, right-wing mostly religious authoritarians are. Actual Libertarians don't generally try to deprive LGBT persons of their right to exist or to marry, restrict racial minorities ability to vote or demonize those of other religious faiths.

No, they just advocate rolling back the state which protects those people.

[Cekoviu]

... Wew. I'm not throwing a tantrum by simply trying to figure out what Geni meant with that post.

Sorry. But would it be Torroccanum or Torraccanum?

Neither, if you're trying to duplicate binomial nomenclature. The species name is lowercase and only the genus name is capitalized.

[Trotskylvania]

Nah, I’d rather not live in a quasi-fascistic society where I and others like me would be considered untermensch in.

Did you read the book? I mean even in the (tarded) movie theres no such thing.

As said before. The Terran Federation is a post-gender, post-race state that is very progressive by most metrics. Much more so than the current US.

Also read the rest of my post.

It's also not real. Historic stratocracies have been, as a rule, regressive states.

[Salus Maior]

If we're talking about citizenship as a concept, I'll give my view of it.

In my view, citizenship is a representation of full membership in the nation (that is, the concept of the nation not just the legality of it), as in a fully integrated resident in terms of customs and culture. Therefore, the native people of the country receive full citizenship as a right, and immigrants earn it as a sort of graduation in the integration process.

The purpose of this is to keep cultural stability, and to ensure that people in full participation in the state are on the same page or at least have a respect and understanding of the nation in which they've chosen to live. While I acknowledge that integrating into a new nation can be difficult, I would say the state should still help with that process by say, giving immigrants classes to learn the local language and customs and similar measures like that instead of just letting them in and hoping they can cope with the cultural shock.

As for children of immigrants, if they're still in minority by the time their parents earn citizenship, I would say they automatically get citizenship too.

[Trotskylvania]

My view on citizenship is that it's another legal institution that exists to control labor, dividing the populace by creating categories the law binds but does not protect.

In the dictatorship of the proletariat, the only requirement to gain citizenship would be to reside and work in the country.

[Torrocca]

Nah, I’d rather not live in a quasi-fascistic society where I and others like me would be considered untermensch in.

Did you read the book? I mean even in the (tarded) movie theres no such thing.

As said before. The Terran Federation is a post-gender, post-race state that is very progressive by most metrics. Much more so than the current US.

Also read the rest of my post.

Dismissing the movie as stupid is, in and of itself, pretty damn stupid without bothering to consider the contexts in which Heinlein wrote the book and in which Verhoeven wrote the script.

One of them served a cozy job for a couple of years as a radar technician on a ship at peacetime, and the other got to see his country invaded by Nazis and then run through the meatgrinder of war as a child, including seeing his neighbors get bombed.

There's a reason Verhoeven's movie satirizes Heinlein's fetishization of war.

[LiberNovusAmericae]

American constitutional libertarians who believe in the minimal role of the state aren't the ones primarily advocating for the rollback of rights of marginalized members of society, right-wing mostly religious authoritarians are. Actual Libertarians don't generally try to deprive LGBT persons of their right to exist or to marry, restrict racial minorities ability to vote or demonize those of other religious faiths.

No, they just advocate rolling back the state which protects those people.

We will allow the right to refuse service, but we hardly believe that the police should yield to people who lynch or commit other hate crimes. The only exceptions are fascists with a "libertarian" veneer.

[Salus Maior]

My view on citizenship is that it's another legal institution that exists to control labor, dividing the populace by creating categories the law binds but does not protect.

In the dictatorship of the proletariat, the only requirement to gain citizenship would be to reside and work in the country.

The problem I have with that is that you can simply work and reside in a country, but be incompatible or even hateful of its culture.

[Trotskylvania]

My view on citizenship is that it's another legal institution that exists to control labor, dividing the populace by creating categories the law binds but does not protect.

In the dictatorship of the proletariat, the only requirement to gain citizenship would be to reside and work in the country.

The problem I have with that is that you can simply work and reside in a country, but be incompatible or even hateful of its culture.

Nations are not homogenous communities and never have been. There is no homogenous "national culture", even among the native born people in a country. And I hardly consider the multiplicity of cultures to be a real problem in the revolutionary process. All existing cultures will be transformed by the process of proletarian revolution

[Salus Maior]

The problem I have with that is that you can simply work and reside in a country, but be incompatible or even hateful of its culture.

Nations are not homogenous communities and never have been. There is no homogenous "national culture", even among the native born people in a country. And I hardly consider the multiplicity of cultures to be a real problem in the revolutionary process. All existing cultures will be transformed by the process of proletarian revolution

While to some degree I think you're right, there is still a sense of a cultural "Us and Them" sentiment when it comes to the people that are native to a country/people with close-enough cultural/historical ties and foreign migrants/different nationality. And this has always existed, and I think this needs to be accounted for when it comes to integration/national stability or else you're going to get the problems we have today when it comes to immigration and minority issues.

That didn't happen in the Soviet Union or Yugoslavia, both of which tried to create a kind of "union culture", but utterly failed to do so. People are going to stick to their national identities, you can't artificially create a new identity.

[Nakena]

Did you read the book? I mean even in the (tarded) movie theres no such thing.

As said before. The Terran Federation is a post-gender, post-race state that is very progressive by most metrics. Much more so than the current US.

Also read the rest of my post.

Dismissing the movie as stupid is, in and of itself, pretty damn stupid without bothering to consider the contexts in which Heinlein wrote the book and in which Verhoeven wrote the script.

One of them served a cozy job for a couple of years as a radar technician on a ship at peacetime, and the other got to see his country invaded by Nazis and then run through the meatgrinder of war as a child, including seeing his neighbors get bombed.

There's a reason Verhoeven's movie satirizes Heinlein's fetishization of war.

Quite splendid how you throw here biographical notions of the authors in here and then show an utter lack of knowledge of their work. Thats quite a feat in itself.

[Torrocca]

Dismissing the movie as stupid is, in and of itself, pretty damn stupid without bothering to consider the contexts in which Heinlein wrote the book and in which Verhoeven wrote the script.

One of them served a cozy job for a couple of years as a radar technician on a ship at peacetime, and the other got to see his country invaded by Nazis and then run through the meatgrinder of war as a child, including seeing his neighbors get bombed.

There's a reason Verhoeven's movie satirizes Heinlein's fetishization of war.

Quite splendid how you throw here biographical notions of the authors in here and then show an utter lack of knowledge of their work. Thats quite a feat in itself.

... It's pretty blatant how much Heinlein fetishizes militarization and war.

The Terran Federation is literally a military junta in the novel, ffs.

[Nakena]

... It's pretty blatant how much Heinlein fetishizes militarization and war.

Says the one who fetishizes Buenaventura Durruti style militarism. Not that I think theres anything wrong with that.

The Terran Federation is literally a military junta in the novel, ffs.

Not more than the Free Terretory was then one led by Nestor Makhno and associated commanders.

*rawr*

[Torrocca]

... It's pretty blatant how much Heinlein fetishizes militarization and war.

Says the one who fetishizes Buenaventura Durruti style militarism. Not that I think theres anything wrong with that.

Defending oneself and others from Fascism is exactly the same thing as having a society run by a military junta which fights a never-ending war of expansion against other societies.

The Terran Federation is literally a military junta in the novel, ffs.

Not more than the Free Terretory was then one led by Nestor Makhno and associated commanders.

*rawr*

>The Free Territory
>A military junta

lmao

[Nakena]

Says the one who fetishizes Buenaventura Durruti style militarism. Not that I think theres anything wrong with that.

Defending oneself and others from Fascism is exactly the same thing as having a society run by a military junta which fights a never-ending war of expansion against other societies.

Not more than the Free Terretory was then one led by Nestor Makhno and associated commanders.

*rawr*

>The Free Territory
>A military junta

lmao

Who is fighting a never-ending war of expansion here? So far it seems that this war is more taking place in your imagination.

Unless you would say that the objective of the Terran Federation is to get vast amounts of galactic lebensraum at the expanse of other humans or lifeforms.

Which is something that has been very enthusiastically being supported not be me but by someone else here...

[Torrocca]

Defending oneself and others from Fascism is exactly the same thing as having a society run by a military junta which fights a never-ending war of expansion against other societies.



>The Free Territory
>A military junta

lmao

Who is fighting a never-ending war of expansion here? So far it seems that this war is more taking place in your imagination.

Unless you would say that the objective of the Terran Federation is to get vast amounts of galactic lebensraum at the expanse of other humans or lifeforms.

Which is something that has been very enthusiastically being supported not be me but by someone else here...

I'm basing it off Heinlein's purported beliefs and the militaristic society he created for the novel. Heinlein gives nothing in the way of what the Federation's junta would do in peacetime, and makes it pretty blatant that there's a belief that there either must be a forever war involving conquest or humanity would die.

[West Leas Oros 2]

IT'S ALIVE!! But, seriously folks, I'm back. What's happening?

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

IT'S ALIVE!! But, seriously folks, I'm back. What's happening?

Tankies. Tankies are happening.

[West Leas Oros 2]

IT'S ALIVE!! But, seriously folks, I'm back. What's happening?

Tankies. Tankies are happening.

[Kowani]

IT'S ALIVE!! But, seriously folks, I'm back. What's happening?

Oh, you’re back!