LWDT 8: Hitting the Marx

[Torrocca]

Why you've spent pages on discussing Kowani's hate boner beats me.

Here's an interesting question. Can communists and ultranationalists work together to overthrow the system or defend a certain order of things? I've been studying the '93 constitutional crisis in Russia, in which Yeltsin was opposed by Soviet-era nomenklatura as well as communist and nationalist groups.

I mean, communism is at least, theoretically, supposed to transcend nations. So, while I’m sure it might work out of necessity, it’s not exactly a main feature in the system.

I don't see how your plans on banning religion are gonna find any effect whatsoever if they basically boil down to, "religion's canceled but you can still be religious lol".

Okay, let’s give an example. We shall say Bob is a Christian. He has kids. Those kids will be educated in state schools. Bob may attempt to pass down his religion to his children. But if he is discovered doing so, well, that’s a different story.

So basically you're gonna have anyone and everyone shot (or imprisoned, or whatever) for talking to their kids about religion? What happens if the kids develop religious beliefs of their own accord? Is Bobby boy catching the chains in that case, too, or do they go to his kids instead? How extreme are we talking here? Are common phrases, like, "oh god!" or whatnot going to warrant punishment?

This all sounds like an excellent way to completely alienate the entire population of your idea of a world government and lead to its destruction, to say the least.

Except that most religions don't see their objects of worship as actually separate from the material world, beyond being divine things.

…Most religions don’t see their Gods as physical beings.

They don't see them as disconnected from the material world, regardless of that.

[Kowani]

Aight so be straight with me ya'll who can admit to having read Capital
Don't be shy, we support each other when it comes to traumatic experiences

Screw that. I have shit to do.

Because, as I said earlier, they failed to abolish the material circumstances that allow religion to grow. A state following my principles would be concerned first with said conditions, then being what they are) before tackling the other side.

You can believe whatever you want. Apart from religion, of course.

I mean, if you were to privately believe it and not act upon it, you’d be fine.

[Grand Proudhonia]

Aight so be straight with me ya'll who can admit to having read Capital
Don't be shy, we support each other when it comes to traumatic experiences

I have thought about it but three bibles worth of content is a quick turn off

[Kubra]

Aight so be straight with me ya'll who can admit to having read Capital
Don't be shy, we support each other when it comes to traumatic experiences

Screw that. I have shit to do.

aw it's really no worse than a lot of the shit that came out of Europe
and let me tell ya, cotton prices are a hell of a lot more interesting than Hegel.
Phenomenology of Spirit is sitting in the corner of my room, I dare not touch it for fear of my soul to such treatment.

[Kubra]

Aight so be straight with me ya'll who can admit to having read Capital
Don't be shy, we support each other when it comes to traumatic experiences

I have thought about it but three bibles worth of content is a quick turn off

ok well it's shorter than the bible, kind of a low bar tho lol
I meeeeeeaaaaan technically all you need is the first volume, the 2nd volume is pretty immaterial and all the real disputes centre around the hard to defend third volume

[First American Empire]

Why you've spent pages on discussing Kowani's hate boner beats me.

Here's an interesting question. Can communists and ultranationalists work together to overthrow the system or defend a certain order of things? I've been studying the '93 constitutional crisis in Russia, in which Yeltsin was opposed by Soviet-era nomenklatura as well as communist and nationalist groups. Would you work with the far-right?

No. Unfortunately, what usually happens is ultranationalists work together with the system to fight against communists.

Ideally, what should happen would be communists and the system working together to fight against ultranationalists.

Communists and ultranationalists won't work together for anything, since they hate each other more than either of them hate the system.

[Kowani]

I mean, communism is at least, theoretically, supposed to transcend nations. So, while I’m sure it might work out of necessity, it’s not exactly a main feature in the system.

Okay, let’s give an example. We shall say Bob is a Christian. He has kids. Those kids will be educated in state schools. Bob may attempt to pass down his religion to his children. But if he is discovered doing so, well, that’s a different story.

So basically you're gonna have anyone and everyone shot (or imprisoned, or whatever) for talking to their kids about religion? What happens if the kids develop religious beliefs of their own accord? Is Bobby boy catching the chains in that case, too, or do they go to his kids instead? How extreme are we talking here? Are common phrases, like, "oh god!" or whatnot going to warrant punishment?

This all sounds like an excellent way to completely alienate the entire population of your idea of a world government and lead to its destruction, to say the least.

Yeah, this is why it is a project over several centuries. The first part is improving the material conditions of the people. Most people don’t tend to rebel when they have full stomachs.

…Most religions don’t see their Gods as physical beings.

They don't see them as disconnected from the material world, regardless of that.

I don’t know what religions you’re looking st, but the ones I know see most of their deity’s as having one way connections to the material world.

Screw that. I have shit to do.

aw it's really no worse than a lot of the shit that came out of Europe
and let me tell ya, cotton prices are a hell of a lot more interesting than Hegel.
Phenomenology of Spirit is sitting in the corner of my room, I dare not touch it for fear of my soul to such treatment.

I refuse to read Hegel. You make a good choice.

[Trotskylvania]

I'm a little late to the party

I left feedback, because I don't think the Orthodox Marxist category is valid because it means so many different things, and they seem to think that left communism is less party centric than other tendencies, which is just outright not true.

[-Ocelot-]

Religion will naturally collapse soon enough tbh

Depends on what you mean "collapse". The near-monopoly of Christianity in the West is slowly but steadily collapsing, sure, but religion in general? Much as I'd like to, it's not likely anytime soon.

Christianity isn't collapsing, either.

It's predatory claws have latched into asia, where they try to turn some of the very few atheist countries into christian ones, namely China and South Korea.

Westerners greatly underestimate the power christianity has because it's less prevalent in Europe and the US. Christians have their militant branches as well, they are just more subtle than others.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

I'm a little late to the party

(Image)

I left feedback, because I don't think the Orthodox Marxist category is valid because it means so many different things, and they seem to think that left communism is less party centric than other tendencies, which is just outright not true.

Why are you so extremely revolutionary and so extremely progressive?

[North German Realm]

Depends on what you mean "collapse". The near-monopoly of Christianity in the West is slowly but steadily collapsing, sure, but religion in general? Much as I'd like to, it's not likely anytime soon.

Christianity isn't collapsing, either.

It's predatory claws have latched into asia, where they try to turn some of the very few atheist countries into christian ones, namely China and South Korea.

Westerners greatly underestimate the power christianity has because it's less prevalent in Europe and the US. Christians have their militant branches as well, they are just more subtle than others.

I meant in the West. Religion in general still maintains its unholy domination of politics and society in most non-Western regions (other than China I guess). But even then, religion isn't collapsing, Christianity's monopoly on religion is.

[Kubra]

I'm a little late to the party

(Image)

I left feedback, because I don't think the Orthodox Marxist category is valid because it means so many different things, and they seem to think that left communism is less party centric than other tendencies, which is just outright not true.

and so the renegade kautskyist shows his true colours

[-Ocelot-]

Christianity isn't collapsing, either.

It's predatory claws have latched into asia, where they try to turn some of the very few atheist countries into christian ones, namely China and South Korea.

Westerners greatly underestimate the power christianity has because it's less prevalent in Europe and the US. Christians have their militant branches as well, they are just more subtle than others.

I meant in the West. Religion in general still maintains its unholy domination of politics and society in most non-Western regions (other than China I guess). But even then, religion isn't collapsing, Christianity's monopoly on religion is.

My reply was also about the comment above about religion "naturally collapsing". Religion will never collapse naturally. And christianity is no exception. Although it is losing it's monopoly in the west.

[Trotskylvania]

I'm a little late to the party

(Image)

I left feedback, because I don't think the Orthodox Marxist category is valid because it means so many different things, and they seem to think that left communism is less party centric than other tendencies, which is just outright not true.

and so the renegade kautskyist shows his true colours

The International will decide your fate

I AM the International

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

and so the renegade kautskyist shows his true colours

The International will decide your fate

I AM the International

I will never understand Marxists and left-coms. From what I can see, not even left-coms understand left-coms.

[Duvniask]

The International will decide your fate

I AM the International

I will never understand Marxists and left-coms.

Implying there's really a difference between the two. The latter is, almost wholly, a specific tendency of the former; a subset.

From what I can see, not even left-coms understand left-coms.

We have been reduced to making guttural sounds at each other in a futile effort to convince the other that they are, in fact, a tankie, or worse, a lib!

[Dumb Ideologies]

Bleh, they updated leftvalues about five minutes after I took it.

I'm now apparently a centrist marxist, which without explanation sounds like an ancap meme.

[Pasong Tirad]

This makes sense. I've been leaning heavily into communalism and democratic confederalism lately. Thank God I found audiobook files online for a lot of Bookchin and Ocalan's work.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

a tankie, or worse, a lib!

Haha. It's funny because it's true.

[United Muscovite Nations]

So then you don't actually want to abolish religion.

To respond the same way I did to UMM: I would not have to police come down to a Christian’s house and force them to recant. That’s impractical. But passing their beliefs on? Nah.

Seemed pretty heavily implied by your earlier claims of wanting to abolish religion, but, as noted above, you've made it clear that that's not what you want to do.

Well, congratulations on missing the point of banning religion.

I guess that people hunting the cure for something like prion disease isn't a matter of pursuing knowledge, since they haven't yet discovered evidence for how to cure such a disease. /s

Not all evidence is in-your-face or easy to find. You do know this, right?

See, here’s the key difference. Religion has had as one of its core claims being exempt from the material world, and not having any evidence by design. Diseases don’t work that way. You’re comparing apples and chocolate.

Then you're going on the ignore list. I have better things to do than continue talking to petulant teenagers whose entire political beliefs boil down to angst and grandiose delusions.

Ahh, so your ignore list encompasses half the site. Or is it just people whose beliefs attack your worldview?

I argue with many people who attack my belief, but I'll be damned if I'm talked down to by someone both younger and less educated than me.

[-Ocelot-]

Got a "centralist" result

https://leftvalues.github.io/results.ht ... 7.8&g=10.7

Anyone else?

[Jack Thomas Lang]

https://leftvalues.github.io/results.ht ... 7.8&g=87.5

Still Utopian Socialism for some reason, even as a conservative nationalist.

[Cerinda]

I need to read more of Lenin to be honest.

[Pasong Tirad]

(Image)

This makes sense. I've been leaning heavily into communalism and democratic confederalism lately. Thank God I found audiobook files online for a lot of Bookchin and Ocalan's work.

I should say however that a lot of the productive/ecological questions feel like a false dichotomy given the liberatory potential of today's technology.

[North German Realm]

Market Anarchism? Huh