LWDT 8: Hitting the Marx

[Novus America]

Same. Thank you, Comrade Coronavirus.

tfw a Republican-dominated Senate overwhelmingly passes a bill that gives people something close to universal health care (at least for testing), grants paid sick leave and bolsters the welfare state, with the added, delicious cherry on top that the same Republican-dominated Senate bullies the right-wing "libertarians" into submission when they try to sabotage the labour rights in that bill

It feels soooo good.

I mean the Chad populist right winning over the Virgin neoliberals might be a victory for workers rights, but I doubt other aspects will thrill you so much...

[Mirial Magna]

tfw a Republican-dominated Senate overwhelmingly passes a bill that gives people something close to universal health care (at least for testing), grants paid sick leave and bolsters the welfare state, with the added, delicious cherry on top that the same Republican-dominated Senate bullies the right-wing "libertarians" into submission when they try to sabotage the labour rights in that bill

It feels soooo good.

I mean the Chad populist right winning over the Virgin neoliberals might be a victory for workers rights, but I doubt other aspects will thrill you so much...

Honestly, I'm just waiting for Bernie to endorse Trump and go full Nazbol.

My life would be complete if that happened.

[Liriena]

tfw a Republican-dominated Senate overwhelmingly passes a bill that gives people something close to universal health care (at least for testing), grants paid sick leave and bolsters the welfare state, with the added, delicious cherry on top that the same Republican-dominated Senate bullies the right-wing "libertarians" into submission when they try to sabotage the labour rights in that bill

It feels soooo good.

I mean the Chad populist right winning over the Virgin neoliberals might be a victory for workers rights, but I doubt other aspects will thrill you so much...

Don't get me wrong, I still think the GOP is by far one of the most consistently horrible major political parties in the western hemisphere, but so long as the neoliberal Democrats insist on snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, the non-neoliberal left could at least take advantage of these times to make progress beyond electoral politics. The fight against the populist right-wing isn't over by any stretch.

[Liriena]

I mean the Chad populist right winning over the Virgin neoliberals might be a victory for workers rights, but I doubt other aspects will thrill you so much...

Honestly, I'm just waiting for Bernie to endorse Trump and go full Nazbol.

My life would be complete if that happened.

I definitely have my doubts about Bernie winning the Democratic nomination, but he's definitely not going to align himself with Trump either. The GOP represents everything he despises and I don't see Bernie abandoning his social principles even for the incidental economic populism that this pandemic has wrought.

[Ostroeuropa]

I mean the Chad populist right winning over the Virgin neoliberals might be a victory for workers rights, but I doubt other aspects will thrill you so much...

Don't get me wrong, I still think the GOP is by far one of the most consistently horrible major political parties in the western hemisphere, but so long as the neoliberal Democrats insist on snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, the non-neoliberal left could at least take advantage of these times to make progress beyond electoral politics. The fight against the populist right-wing isn't over by any stretch.

It can be put on pause with a simple; "First, we smash the neoliberals" agreement.

[Mirial Magna]

I mean the Chad populist right winning over the Virgin neoliberals might be a victory for workers rights, but I doubt other aspects will thrill you so much...

Don't get me wrong, I still think the GOP is by far one of the most consistently horrible major political parties in the western hemisphere, but so long as the neoliberal Democrats insist on snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, the non-neoliberal left could at least take advantage of these times to make progress beyond electoral politics. The fight against the populist right-wing isn't over by any stretch.

Why do socialists and populists have to be enemies?
Don't the two groups want the same thing, the enrichment of the common people?
I may be a bit biased as a moderate nazbol, but I think it would be best if the two groups put aside their differences to end the neoliberal establishment.

[Liriena]

Don't get me wrong, I still think the GOP is by far one of the most consistently horrible major political parties in the western hemisphere, but so long as the neoliberal Democrats insist on snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, the non-neoliberal left could at least take advantage of these times to make progress beyond electoral politics. The fight against the populist right-wing isn't over by any stretch.

It can be put on pause with a simple; "First, we smash the neoliberals" agreement.

A very Peronist strategy, tbh. It'd probably work. And if it comes with the added benefit of smashing the last remnants of the neocon consensus...

[Nakena]

It can be put on pause with a simple; "First, we smash the neoliberals" agreement.

A very Peronist strategy, tbh. It'd probably work. And if it comes with the added benefit of smashing the last remnants of the neocon consensus...

Brought to you by Carlos Saul Menem, who was too, a member of the justicialist party.

[Ostroeuropa]

Don't get me wrong, I still think the GOP is by far one of the most consistently horrible major political parties in the western hemisphere, but so long as the neoliberal Democrats insist on snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, the non-neoliberal left could at least take advantage of these times to make progress beyond electoral politics. The fight against the populist right-wing isn't over by any stretch.

Why do socialists and populists have to be enemies?
Don't the two groups want the same thing, the enrichment of the common people?
I may be a bit biased as a moderate nazbol, but I think it would be best if the two groups put aside their differences to end the neoliberal establishment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8ycA4cYFcI

This but unironically (3 mins long).

Also, top comment is the best.

NO! Not a National Socialist,

but a
Democratic National Socialist

It can be put on pause with a simple; "First, we smash the neoliberals" agreement.

A very Peronist strategy, tbh. It'd probably work. And if it comes with the added benefit of smashing the last remnants of the neocon consensus...

Probably.

[Novus America]

I mean the Chad populist right winning over the Virgin neoliberals might be a victory for workers rights, but I doubt other aspects will thrill you so much...

Don't get me wrong, I still think the GOP is by far one of the most consistently horrible major political parties in the western hemisphere, but so long as the neoliberal Democrats insist on snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, the non-neoliberal left could at least take advantage of these times to make progress beyond electoral politics. The fight against the populist right-wing isn't over by any stretch.

Eh, I mean celebrating their victory to beat them latter seems interesting.
But not sure it really works. More likely they co opt you than you them.
But eh, I actually kind of like moderate right populism, just get worried about the tendencies towards racialism and lack of regard for the environment by many associated with it.

But after the neoliberals go down, the Marxists and such still stay down.

[Novus America]

It can be put on pause with a simple; "First, we smash the neoliberals" agreement.

A very Peronist strategy, tbh. It'd probably work. And if it comes with the added benefit of smashing the last remnants of the neocon consensus...

I mean I am obviously cool with taking down the post modern post Cold War neoliberals consensus, but Peronism has hardly produced successful socialism.

I do not like lefty Marxist socialism anyways, so fine with me. But find with you?

[Liriena]

Don't get me wrong, I still think the GOP is by far one of the most consistently horrible major political parties in the western hemisphere, but so long as the neoliberal Democrats insist on snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, the non-neoliberal left could at least take advantage of these times to make progress beyond electoral politics. The fight against the populist right-wing isn't over by any stretch.

Why do socialists and populists have to be enemies?

With right-wing populists specifically, because their end-goal is not the same as ours, even if we might at times have similar critiques of neoliberalism and the like. And because their entire framework is often wrong and will cause more problems than it'll solve if they get to shape policy in accordance to it.

Left-wing populism is good, though. Or at the very least, a left-wing understanding of social-cultural issues that can aid in the emancipation of discriminated groups without falling into the trap of treating prejudice as born from some innate stupidity of an economic underclass. A left-wing populism that can critique and deconstruct what is genuinely wrong about the culture it exists in without making it something that comes from the top down.

I know I'm getting repetitive with my praise of Peronism, even though I still reject it on the basis of its ideological basis and its history, but this is one of the things that Peronism has ultimately handled pretty well.

Don't the two groups want the same thing, the enrichment of the common people?

Historically, no. At least not as far as right-wing populism is concerned.

I may be a bit biased as a moderate nazbol, but I think it would be best if the two groups put aside their differences to end the neoliberal establishment.

The thing is that one could argue that the populist right-wing has historically been more of a tool to save the dominant class in times of crisis, when the liberal/conservative consensus becomes strained by its contradictions.

[Liriena]

A very Peronist strategy, tbh. It'd probably work. And if it comes with the added benefit of smashing the last remnants of the neocon consensus...

I mean I am obviously cool with taking down the post modern post Cold War neoliberals consensus, but Peronism has hardly produced successful socialism.

I do not like lefty Marxist socialism anyways, so fine with me. But find with you?

Not fine, but harm reduction is harm reduction.

And yeah, Peronism hasn't produced successful socialism. Right now, you could call them successful social democrats. Very bureaucratic, not very consistent, not very ambitious social democrats.

The non-Peronist left, warts and all, is still very much the closest thing I have to an Argentine political movement I can identify with. They struggle with electoral politics, because Peronism and the anti-Peronist right have an oligopoly on our political discourse, but they are very consistent and very libertarian.

[Novus America]

I mean I am obviously cool with taking down the post modern post Cold War neoliberals consensus, but Peronism has hardly produced successful socialism.

I do not like lefty Marxist socialism anyways, so fine with me. But find with you?

Not fine, but harm reduction is harm reduction.

And yeah, Peronism hasn't produced successful socialism. Right now, you could call them successful social democrats. Very bureaucratic, not very consistent, not very ambitious social democrats.

The non-Peronist left, warts and all, is still very much the closest thing I have to an Argentine political movement I can identify with. They struggle with electoral politics, because Peronism and the anti-Peronist right have an oligopoly on our political discourse, but they are very consistent and very libertarian.

Well maybe the reason the Non Peronist left struggles is because it is fundamentally flawed, rather than just the system?
You assume the system alone is to blame, but that is a very dubious assumption.

Given my ideal is a combination of Heinlein, Hamilton and moderate Social Democracy/Rhine Capitalism with American characteristics and an Atompunk aesthetic I am probably more a Peronist than you are.

[Liriena]

Not fine, but harm reduction is harm reduction.

And yeah, Peronism hasn't produced successful socialism. Right now, you could call them successful social democrats. Very bureaucratic, not very consistent, not very ambitious social democrats.

The non-Peronist left, warts and all, is still very much the closest thing I have to an Argentine political movement I can identify with. They struggle with electoral politics, because Peronism and the anti-Peronist right have an oligopoly on our political discourse, but they are very consistent and very libertarian.

Well maybe the reason the Non Peronist left struggles is because it is fundamentally flawed, rather than just the system?
You assume the system alone is to blame, but that is a very dubious assumption.

I don't think it's "the system", really. It's just history. The Radical Civic Union and Peronism both undermined what at the time were very significant left-wing movements, each in their own way. The Radical Civic Union with its big social aid networks and its selective support/repression of workers' strikes. Peronism with its bureaucratization and centralization of the labour movement and its suppression of left-wing dissenters. The 60s and 70s kind of finished the job, as our successive military dictatorships killed off entire generations of left-wing activists and intellectuals. So what we have left is a few coalitions of left-wing parties that lost most of whatever ground game they had long ago, who don't have the infrastructure or cultural capital to compete with decades of Peronist hegemony in the working class and who don't have the comfy kinda elitist appeal that would get them a lot of urban and suburban middle class support.

I wouldn't say that the problem with our non-Peronist left is one of ideas or policy per se. A lot of people do find explicit anti-capitalist rhetoric alienating because their minds immediately go to Cuba or Venezuela when they hear that stuff. But in terms of specifics, their platform is not really outrageous for our current circumstances.

For example, they want to abolish our income tax, which disproportionately affects our middle and lower-middle classes. Macri won in 2015 partially on that idea. But Macri wasn't running as a socialist; he was running as a friendly "apolitical", "non-ideological" managerial guy.

Peronists have done a fairly good job of alienating a lot of stereotypical left-wing voters from the non-Peronist left by way of framing them as useless, ineffectual naysayers whose opposition to Peronism aids the right-wing. Meanwhile, the non-Peronist right has been just as hostile since 1946, which was the first and last time that both sides of anti-Peronism joined forces.

Given my ideal is a combination of Heinlein, Hamilton and moderate Social Democracy/Rhine Capitalism with American characteristics and an Atompunk aesthetic I am probably more a Peronist than you are.

Sounds about right.

[Northern Davincia]

Mark my words, we libertarians will be back. We always resurface when it's least desired.

[Liriena]

Mark my words, we libertarians will be back. We always resurface when it's least desired.

Nah, experience has taught me that right-wing libertarianism only really appeals to a very small demographic, much of which won't stay libertarian for long.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Mark my words, we libertarians will be back. We always resurface when it's least desired.

No, this crisis is showing the total failure of laissez faire ideas to deal with any kind of crisis.

[Nakena]

Mark my words, we libertarians will be back. We always resurface when it's least desired.

No, this crisis is showing the total failure of laissez faire ideas to deal with any kind of crisis.

This pretty much. ^^

And most libertarians politicians don't have the wisdom of Ron Paul

[Northern Davincia]

Mark my words, we libertarians will be back. We always resurface when it's least desired.

Nah, experience has taught me that right-wing libertarianism only really appeals to a very small demographic, much of which won't stay libertarian for long.

Your experience has not taught you well.

Mark my words, we libertarians will be back. We always resurface when it's least desired.

No, this crisis is showing the total failure of laissez faire ideas to deal with any kind of crisis.

Not necessarily, it's just that many people dislike how it is to be dealt with.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Nah, experience has taught me that right-wing libertarianism only really appeals to a very small demographic, much of which won't stay libertarian for long.

Your experience has not taught you well.

No, this crisis is showing the total failure of laissez faire ideas to deal with any kind of crisis.

Not necessarily, it's just that many people dislike how it is to be dealt with.

What could laissez faire possibly do to deal with it? Staring into the mind of the market is staring into the mind of a schizophrenic.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Also, daily reminder that Donald Trump was a literal tankie and openly praised the Chinese government for the Tienanmen square massacre.

[North German Realm]

Your experience has not taught you well.

Not necessarily, it's just that many people dislike how it is to be dealt with.

What could laissez faire possibly do to deal with it? Staring into the mind of the market is staring into the mind of a schizophrenic.

Laissez-Faire would "Deal with" this the only way it knows how to, by making sure everyone who's incapable of surviving at the absence of the state forcing the market's hand into helping them will die. Of course, it's not exactly a result that we should want, but that's what you get.

[Proctopeo]

Mark my words, we libertarians will be back. We always resurface when it's least desired.

Nah, experience has taught me that right-wing libertarianism only really appeals to a very small demographic, much of which won't stay libertarian for long.

what did he mean by this

Also, daily reminder that Donald Trump was a literal tankie and openly praised the Chinese government for the Tienanmen square massacre.

Tankie, registered Democrat, god-Emperor, what can't that man do?

[United Muscovite Nations]

Nah, experience has taught me that right-wing libertarianism only really appeals to a very small demographic, much of which won't stay libertarian for long.

what did he mean by this

Also, daily reminder that Donald Trump was a literal tankie and openly praised the Chinese government for the Tienanmen square massacre.

Tankie, registered Democrat, god-Emperor, what can't that man do?

I was being literal anon:

Q: What did you think when you visited the Soviet Union

A: I was very unimpressed. Their system is a disaster. What you will see there soon is a revolution; The signs are all there with the demonstrations and picketing. Russia is out of control and the leadership knows it. That's my problem with Gorbachev. Not a firm enough hand

Q: Not a firm enough hand?


When the students poured into Tiananmen Square, the Chinese government almost blew it. Then they were vicious, they were horrible, but they put it down with strength. That shows you the power of strength. Our country is right now perceived as weak... as being spit on by the rest of the world—

Q: Why is Gorbachev not firm enough?

A: I predict he will be overthrown, because he has shown extraordinary weakness. Suddenly, for the first time ever, there are coal-miner strikes and brush fires everywhere—which will all ultimately lead to a violent revolution. Yet Gorbachev is getting credit for being a wonderful leader and we should continue giving him credit, because he's destroying the Soviet Union. But his giving an inch is going to end up costing him and all his friends what they most cherish—their jobs.


From an interview in playboy magazine in early 1991