LWDT 8: Hitting the Marx

[Grenartia]

I doubt you'd fair much better in a LibSoc society

A lot of the worst effects of such a society have already begun to manifest themselves under neoliberalism through forces of creative destruction. I do not fear so much for myself in these conditions as I fear for the future of the way of life I got to enjoy. People will become more akin to cogs in the great industrial machine because the concern of both neoliberals and the majority of the LibSocs we now encounter are principally material and labor-related. Alienation has begun to creep into the human psyche and higher wages will not alleviate such traumas and listlessness. We need a degree of nationalism, religosity, or traditionalism to retrieve what has been lost.

I don't buy that. Lack of religion, lack of tradition, and lack of nationalism are not present in society, and furthermore, nationalism, religion, and tradition do not relieve alienation, anymore than a bandaid relieves a cut to a major artery. Capitalism itself is the cause of alienation, and only its destruction can alleviate alienation.

[Fahran]

I assure you, those things will return when the status quo reaches its bitter end. We are nearer to it than it seems.

I'd still prefer to eschew outright fanaticism is the thing. Prudence is a conservative virtue.

[Fahran]

I don't buy that. Lack of religion, lack of tradition, and lack of nationalism are not present in society, and furthermore, do not relieve alienation, anymore than a bandaid relieves a cut to a major artery. Capitalism itself is the cause of alienation, and only its destruction can alleviate alienation.

I think this interpretation is only possible if we completely ignore what Islamists and nationalists in the developing world have been rumbling about since the late 1970's. Neoliberalism and urbanization are indeed alienating because they serve to dismantle traditional communities and dissipate the power of traditional institutions that kept us grounded in the past - such as the family, religion, ethnic/national/cultural identity, etc. It's a lot harder to feel as though your life and actions are meaningful when you frame your purpose as going into the office and going home to amass enough money to purchase creature comforts and sate your appetite. Socialism does not offer a cure to most of these problems. In fact, it often exacerbates them.

[Crysuko]

I assure you, those things will return when the status quo reaches its bitter end. We are nearer to it than it seems.

I'd still prefer to eschew outright fanaticism is the thing. Prudence is a conservative virtue.

Prudence is subjective. I would consider it prudent to empower trade unions and increase taxes on billionaires, but you might not.

[Pyrghium]

I assure you, those things will return when the status quo reaches its bitter end. We are nearer to it than it seems.

I'd still prefer to eschew outright fanaticism is the thing. Prudence is a conservative virtue.

I’m not advocating violence or fanaticism. I’m just saying that this madhouse we call a Society cannot and will not go on forever. It is built on lies, and is out of touch with reality; it will cave in at some point. We can see the rot internally, all it’ll take for the System to snap is a major crisis - an economic downturn, a war, a pandemic.

[Crysuko]

I don't buy that. Lack of religion, lack of tradition, and lack of nationalism are not present in society, and furthermore, do not relieve alienation, anymore than a bandaid relieves a cut to a major artery. Capitalism itself is the cause of alienation, and only its destruction can alleviate alienation.

I think this interpretation is only possible if we completely ignore what Islamists and nationalists in the developing world have been rumbling about since the late 1970's. Neoliberalism and urbanization are indeed alienating because they serve to dismantle traditional communities and dissipate the power of traditional institutions that kept us grounded in the past - such as the family, religion, ethnic/national/cultural identity, etc. It's a lot harder to feel as though your life and actions are meaningful when you frame your purpose as going into the office and going home to amass enough money to purchase creature comforts and sate your appetite. Socialism does not offer a cure to most of these problems. In fact, it often exacerbates them.

What do you propose to alleviate these woes?

[Crysuko]

I'd still prefer to eschew outright fanaticism is the thing. Prudence is a conservative virtue.

I’m not advocating violence or fanaticism. I’m just saying that this madhouse we call a Society cannot and will not go on forever. It is built on lies, and is out of touch with reality; it will cave in at some point. We can see the rot internally, all it’ll take for the System to snap is a major crisis - an economic downturn, a war, a pandemic.

If I see any more pandemic alarmism I'll have an aneurysm.

[Fahran]

Prudence is subjective. I would consider it prudent to empower trade unions and increase taxes on billionaires, but you might not.

I actually have no serious objection to holding citizens to their obligations so long as those obligations are understood to extend well beyond simply paying taxes. I want genuine participation in and defense of the community as well - in every respect.

[Crysuko]

Prudence is subjective. I would consider it prudent to empower trade unions and increase taxes on billionaires, but you might not.

I actually have no serious objection to holding citizens to their obligations so long as those obligations are understood to extend well beyond simply paying taxes. I want genuine participation in and defense of the community as well - in every respect.

How though? When consumer capitalism has overwritten so much community culture.

[Kubra]

I doubt you'd fair much better in a LibSoc society

A lot of the worst effects of such a society have already begun to manifest themselves under neoliberalism through forces of creative destruction. I do not fear so much for myself in these conditions as I fear for the future of the way of life I got to enjoy. People will become more akin to cogs in the great industrial machine because the concern of both neoliberals and the majority of the LibSocs we now encounter are principally material and labor-related. Alienation has begun to creep into the human psyche and higher wages will not alleviate such traumas and listlessness. We need a degree of nationalism, religosity, or traditionalism to retrieve what has been lost.

idk all that sounds pretty y'know
not fun

[Jutlop]

His name has "Democratic". He can't possibly be Marxist.

I would argue that the capitalist method of production is inherently more undemocratic than the Marxist ideal of collective ownership. I mean, one guy gets to do whatever he wants with this property and the people working on it, because of an arbritrary idea of "owning" it? The property owner may as well be a dictator.

No communism was made to with coexist democracy, of course, he can be a Marxist and a democracy at the same time

[Crysuko]

I would argue that the capitalist method of production is inherently more undemocratic than the Marxist ideal of collective ownership. I mean, one guy gets to do whatever he wants with this property and the people working on it, because of an arbritrary idea of "owning" it? The property owner may as well be a dictator.

No communism was made to with coexist democracy, of course, he can be a Marxist and a democracy at the same time

The concept of democratic workplaces is a core tenet of socialism

[Fahran]

What do you propose to alleviate these woes?

Prioritize the nuclear family, extended kinship networks, marriage, and child rearing. This does not need to be done in an exclusive or anti-feminist way but we do need a shift away from atomized individualism and Kantian universalism to a more structured and intimate approach to human relationships. It gives people a purpose beyond themselves and ensures that more children enjoy a happy and beneficial upbringing.

Promotion of service, locally and nationally. All citizens should acknowledge their obligations to pay taxes to sustain the republic, to honor the blood tithe through military service when called upon, to take an avid and continuing interest in their local communities and neighbors, and to lead lives in service to things beyond themselves and their own ideas. My goal here is engagement. Whether that means building homes or playing sports or doing something beyond armchair activism to hurl ourselves into public life.

Virtue. We cannot be content to follow a libertarian line anymore because this exacerbates the self-centered attitude that has predominated in recent decades. We see it when billionaires complain about paying taxes. We see it when progressives complain about the stigmas attached to bad or pernicious behaviors. Striving to do the right thing should be honored. Neglecting to do the right thing should carry dishonor.

Religious institutions serve to provide guidance and community simultaneously. There's a reason they were instrumental to the Civil Rights Movement and relief efforts in the not-too-distant past. While milquetoast NGO's do some similar things, they're not as intimate or locally based, and thus tend to get lost in the bureaucratic tape.

Nationalism. We need to have a strong sense of who we are as communities. Globalism has mostly served to empower those most inclined to secede from society or to prioritize profit over humanity - such as multinational corporations and ideologues. Now I'm not advocating for the sort of populism we're seeing at the moment in places like Hungary. But we do need a more mild dose of that on top of everything else I mentioned.

Agrarianism/Localism. Because, again, creative destruction is destroying families and communities.

[Kubra]

What do you propose to alleviate these woes?

Prioritize the nuclear family, extended kinship networks, marriage, and child rearing. This does not need to be done in an exclusive or anti-feminist way but we do not a shift away from atomized individualism and Kantian universalism to a more structured and intimate approach to human relationships. It gives people a purpose beyond themselves and ensures that more children enjoy a happy and beneficial upbringing.

Promotion of service, locally and nationally. All citizens should acknowledge their obligations to pay taxes to sustain the republic, to honor the blood tithe through military service when called upon, to take an avid and continuing interest in their local communities and neighbors, and to lead lives in service to things beyond themselves and their own ideas. My goal here is engagement. Whether that means building homes or playing sports or doing something beyond armchair activism to hurl ourselves into public life.

Virtue. We cannot be content to follow a libertarian line anymore because this exacerbates the self-centered attitude that has predominated in recent decades. We see it when billionaires complain about paying taxes. We see it when progressives complain about the stigmas attached to bad or pernicious behaviors. Striving to do the right thing should be honored. Neglecting to do the right thing should carry dishonor.

Religious institutions serve to provide guidance and community simultaneously. There's a reason they were instrumental to the Civil Rights Movement and relief efforts in the not-too-distant past. While milquetoast NGO's do some similar things, they're not as intimate or locally based, and thus tend to get lost in the bureaucratic tape.

Nationalism. We need to have a strong sense of who we are as communities. Globalism has mostly served to empower those most inclined to secede from society or to prioritize profit over humanity - such as multinational corporations and ideologues. Now I'm not advocating for the sort of populism we're seeing at the moment in places like Hungary. But we do need a more mild dose of that on top of everything else I mentioned.

Agrarianism/Localism. Because, again, creative destruction is destroying families and communities.

Why tho

[Fahran]

How though? When consumer capitalism has overwritten so much community culture.

Systematic reassertion of aspects of traditional culture and withdrawing from neoliberalism as part of a gradual process. My objection to LibSoc is that it doesn't achieve those goals on its own. In fact, many of the tenants that have been popularly expressed accelerate the breakdown of society we're seeing under neoliberalism while offering even less prosperity to show for it.

[Fahran]

Why tho

To address the problem of listlessness which has already begun to creep into our post-modern society.

Also, because these institutions seem to produce well-adjusted persons more often than their absence does.

[Kubra]

Why tho

To address the problem of listlessness which has already begun to creep into our post-modern society.

Also, because these institutions seem to produce well-adjusted persons more often than their absence does.

Listlessness? I dunno about you, but I quite enjoy living as a rootless cosmopolitan. And in any case, insofar as we live a relatively peaceful existence, I cannot quite see why one would want to return to the values of the more violent times of human history.
I mean I guess i'm biased by proper old-school clan assemblies. Everybody gathers round the pater familia on his hacienda, sings the national anthem, prays before dinner, and toasts the recent offensive against the communists. You can imagine how awkward such things can be when one is an atheist communist tourist not in possession of a landed estate.

[Page]

To address the problem of listlessness which has already begun to creep into our post-modern society.

Also, because these institutions seem to produce well-adjusted persons more often than their absence does.

Listlessness? I dunno about you, but I quite enjoy living as a rootless cosmopolitan.

Me too! Secular, childfree life is so full of freedom. My paternalistic instincts are satisfied by being a cat dad.

[Loben The 2nd]

A lot of the worst effects of such a society have already begun to manifest themselves under neoliberalism through forces of creative destruction. I do not fear so much for myself in these conditions as I fear for the future of the way of life I got to enjoy. People will become more akin to cogs in the great industrial machine because the concern of both neoliberals and the majority of the LibSocs we now encounter are principally material and labor-related. Alienation has begun to creep into the human psyche and higher wages will not alleviate such traumas and listlessness. We need a degree of nationalism, religosity, or traditionalism to retrieve what has been lost.

I don't buy that. Lack of religion, lack of tradition, and lack of nationalism are not present in society, and furthermore, nationalism, religion, and tradition do not relieve alienation, anymore than a bandaid relieves a cut to a major artery. Capitalism itself is the cause of alienation, and only its destruction can alleviate alienation.

*doubt*

[Crysuko]

I don't buy that. Lack of religion, lack of tradition, and lack of nationalism are not present in society, and furthermore, nationalism, religion, and tradition do not relieve alienation, anymore than a bandaid relieves a cut to a major artery. Capitalism itself is the cause of alienation, and only its destruction can alleviate alienation.

*doubt*

Outstanding argument

[Loben The 2nd]

*doubt*

Outstanding argument

It’s straight to the point unlike a paragraph long gospel of the apparent cause of alienation.

[Crysuko]

Outstanding argument

It’s straight to the point unlike a paragraph long gospel of the apparent cause of alienation.

Not really. You haven't explained what your doubt actually is.

[West Leas Oros 2]

A lot of the worst effects of such a society have already begun to manifest themselves under neoliberalism through forces of creative destruction. I do not fear so much for myself in these conditions as I fear for the future of the way of life I got to enjoy. People will become more akin to cogs in the great industrial machine because the concern of both neoliberals and the majority of the LibSocs we now encounter are principally material and labor-related. Alienation has begun to creep into the human psyche and higher wages will not alleviate such traumas and listlessness. We need a degree of nationalism, religosity, or traditionalism to retrieve what has been lost.

I assure you, those things will return when the status quo reaches its bitter end. We are nearer to it than it seems.

Not likely. What do you think people will turn to when SHTF? Vague appeals to Nation, God, and Family, or the immediate economic realities? Seems pretty clear to me.

[Fahran]

Not likely. What do you think people will turn to when SHTF? Vague appeals to Nation, God, and Family, or the immediate economic realities? Seems pretty clear to me.

As I've tried to point out, economic realities are only one aspect of the problem. Those "vague appeals" to things that a lot of Marxists want to abolish present a solution to the problem of nihilism, and, furthermore, provide people with a firm foundation upon which to base their identities and socialization. We do not need socialism to be happy but we do need a purpose.

[Fahran]

Me too! Secular, childfree life is so full of freedom. My paternalistic instincts are satisfied by being a cat dad.

You might enjoy it at the moment but that particular lifestyle leads to quite a lot of social dysfunction as population growth begins to decline sharply and then curve downward. By the time those of us presently in our teens and twenties reach the later stages of our lives, we may well see demand trending downward and tax revenues used to support more generous social programs drying up, especially if everyone decides to abstain from family and pursue a life dedicated solely to their own appetites. And that's assuming depression and unhappiness don't continue to plague the "rootless cosmopolitans."

You don't have to be a petty Latin American elite to appreciate the benefits of family, faith, and strong institutions. Again, most people who are well-adjusted in the United States appreciate those things to some degree. Toasting an offensive against the communists is quite pointless given the broader irrelevance of the ideology and movement in the present day but I have had my brother and relatives to discuss developments in Afghanistan and Iraq in the past. My issue with leftism at the moment is that it has vacated the ground when it comes to a lot of the issues I've referenced whereas right-wing populism and Islamism are making a lot of inroads there.