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LWDT 8: Hitting the Marx

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Under which leaders (if any) was the Soviet Union socialist?

Lenin (1918-1924)
411
34%
Stalin (1924-1953)
223
19%
Khrushchev (1953-1964)
149
12%
Brezhnev (1964-1982)
125
10%
Gorbachev (1985-1991)
126
10%
Never
167
14%
 
Total votes : 1201

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Duvniask
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Posts: 4289
Founded: Aug 30, 2012
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Duvniask » Tue Mar 31, 2020 2:56 pm

Liriena wrote:
Proctopeo wrote:Ah, I assume she gives the types who think that certain demographics should only think a certain way absolute fits?

More like she's built her career on giving the "I have a black friend" seal of approval to TPUSA types.

Oh and Hitler apologia.

We're at the stage where someone is implying we're racists or we're paternalistic because we recognize that being a mouthpiece for the very people who hurt the group you're a part of is bad.
Supporting anTIFA.

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The old world is dying, and the new world struggles to be born: now is the time of monsters.

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Cekoviu
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Posts: 16094
Founded: Oct 18, 2017
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cekoviu » Tue Mar 31, 2020 2:56 pm

Liriena wrote:
Proctopeo wrote:Ah, I assume she gives the types who think that certain demographics should only think a certain way absolute fits?

More like she's built her career on giving the "I have a black friend" seal of approval to TPUSA types.

Oh and Hitler apologia.

Bonus points for being an "ex-leftist."
RWDT - REST IN POWER
Market socialist, David Hume fangirl, and massive Tuvaboo. Moderate SWERF & traditionalist SJW. Non-denominational Christian, influenced by Orthodoxy and certain Protestant currents.
/tʃɛ'koʊ.vi:.ju:/ (check-OH-vee-you)

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The East Marches II
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Posts: 18033
Founded: Mar 11, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby The East Marches II » Tue Mar 31, 2020 2:57 pm

Liriena wrote:
The East Marches II wrote:
Best news I've heard all week

You can no longer criticize the free marketeers or you are a bigot. Brown people don't have agency and the indigenous are the most persecuted of all :^)

Edit: I have been informed reality beat me to it.

If you oppose debt collection you hate WoC :^)))))

Don't call it a grave, it's the future you chose.

"Debt collection industry"

And they say landlords are parasites.


You enabled them though Anon :^)

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Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States
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Posts: 19219
Founded: Feb 20, 2012
Democratic Socialists

Postby Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States » Tue Mar 31, 2020 2:58 pm

Proctopeo wrote:
Duvniask wrote:In the sense that Uncle Toms are bad, to be sure.

When I posted that, I didn't expect someone who thought that to actually show up.

Liriena wrote:More like she's built her career on giving the "I have a black friend" seal of approval to TPUSA types.

Oh and Hitler apologia.

:eyebrow:

She claimed the problem with Hitler was not his domestic policy, but his warmongering.
The name's James. James Usari. Well, my name is not actually James Usari, so don't bother actually looking it up, but it'll do for now.

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Proctopeo
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Anarchy

Postby Proctopeo » Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:00 pm

Duvniask wrote:
Liriena wrote:More like she's built her career on giving the "I have a black friend" seal of approval to TPUSA types.

Oh and Hitler apologia.

We're at the stage where someone is implying we're racists or we're paternalistic because we recognize that being a mouthpiece for the very people who hurt the group you're a part of is bad.

Paternalism... I think that's precisely the word I was looking for to apply here.

"how dare a BLACK WOMAN believe things that I don't want her to! >:( "

Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:
Proctopeo wrote:When I posted that, I didn't expect someone who thought that to actually show up.


:eyebrow:

She claimed the problem with Hitler was not his domestic policy, but his warmongering.

Ah.
She should flip those, being a warmonger is a much more mild sin.
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I don't like most tankies/red fascists
China Lied, People Died.
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Cekoviu
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Founded: Oct 18, 2017
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cekoviu » Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:01 pm

Proctopeo wrote:
Duvniask wrote:We're at the stage where someone is implying we're racists or we're paternalistic because we recognize that being a mouthpiece for the very people who hurt the group you're a part of is bad.

Paternalism... I think that's precisely the word I was looking for to apply here.

"how dare a BLACK WOMAN believe things that I don't want her to! >:( "

do you think we would be more ok with her beliefs if she was white
RWDT - REST IN POWER
Market socialist, David Hume fangirl, and massive Tuvaboo. Moderate SWERF & traditionalist SJW. Non-denominational Christian, influenced by Orthodoxy and certain Protestant currents.
/tʃɛ'koʊ.vi:.ju:/ (check-OH-vee-you)

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Liriena
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Posts: 59575
Founded: Nov 19, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Liriena » Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:02 pm

Proctopeo wrote:
Liriena wrote:More like she's built her career on giving the "I have a black friend" seal of approval to TPUSA types.

Oh and Hitler apologia.

:eyebrow:

A while back, she talked herself into a corner trying to distinguish her nationalism from nationalist regimes like the Third Reich. In an attempt to just avoid that opportunity for critical thought altogether, she tried to argue that Hitler was actually a globalist because he tried to expand beyond the confines of Germany. And because she just couldn't stop herself from digging herself deeper, she then said something along the lines of "if Hitler had just stuck to doing his thing in Germany, that would have been fine".
Last edited by Liriena on Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
be gay do crime


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


⚧Copy and paste this in your sig
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The East Marches II
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Posts: 18033
Founded: Mar 11, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby The East Marches II » Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:03 pm

Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:
The East Marches II wrote:
Best news I've heard all week

You can no longer criticize the free marketeers or you are a bigot. Brown people don't have agency and the indigenous are the most persecuted of all :^)

Edit: I have been informed reality beat me to it.

If you oppose debt collection you hate WoC :^)))))

Don't call it a grave, it's the future you chose.

I’m sure some of that made sense to you, which is what should give you some solace.


It really does. It's the world the intersectional types built. Now we have to suffer the consequences.

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Liriena
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 59575
Founded: Nov 19, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Liriena » Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:04 pm

Cekoviu wrote:
Liriena wrote:More like she's built her career on giving the "I have a black friend" seal of approval to TPUSA types.

Oh and Hitler apologia.

Bonus points for being an "ex-leftist."

I love how many of those grifters claim to be "ex-leftists" but seldom leave any actual trace of ever having held political views to the left of Jeb!
be gay do crime


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


⚧Copy and paste this in your sig
if you passed biology and know
gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧

I disown most of my previous posts

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The New California Republic
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 27246
Founded: Jun 06, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:06 pm

Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

NS Hitman
White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

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Liriena
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 59575
Founded: Nov 19, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Liriena » Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:06 pm

The East Marches II wrote:
Liriena wrote:"Debt collection industry"

And they say landlords are parasites.


You enabled them though Anon :^)

Not me. I voted for the Trots and I have the complimentary ice pick in my skull to prove it. :^)
be gay do crime


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


⚧Copy and paste this in your sig
if you passed biology and know
gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧

I disown most of my previous posts

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Proctopeo
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Posts: 11700
Founded: Sep 26, 2016
Anarchy

Postby Proctopeo » Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:07 pm

Cekoviu wrote:
Proctopeo wrote:Paternalism... I think that's precisely the word I was looking for to apply here.

"how dare a BLACK WOMAN believe things that I don't want her to! >:( "

do you think we would be more ok with her beliefs if she was white

It would still be paternalistic to tell a white woman that she's betraying her kin by not believing the things you think she should believe.

Liriena wrote:
Proctopeo wrote: :eyebrow:

A while back, she talked herself into a corner trying to distinguish her nationalism from nationalist regimes like the Third Reich. In an attempt to just avoid that opportunity for critical thought altogether, she tried to argue that Hitler was actually a globalist because he tried to expand beyond the confines of Germany. And because she just couldn't stop herself from digging herself deeper, she then said something along the lines of "if Hitler had just stuck to doing his thing in Germany, that would have been fine".

Should've stopped at the "Hitler was a globalist", because you could maybe make a solid argument out of that.

Liriena wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:Bonus points for being an "ex-leftist."

I love how many of those grifters claim to be "ex-leftists" but seldom leave any actual trace of ever having held political views to the left of Jeb!

Could've been a brief phase.
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I don't like most tankies/red fascists
China Lied, People Died.
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Dumb Ideologies
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Mother Knows Best State

Postby Dumb Ideologies » Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:09 pm

Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:
Proctopeo wrote:When I posted that, I didn't expect someone who thought that to actually show up.


:eyebrow:

She claimed the problem with Hitler was not his domestic policy, but his warmongering.


Developed a bit more that might make some sense as a take since the war and it bringing more and more "undesirables" under the regime's remit was a major factor (along with the chaotic and competitive regime structure) in the radicalisation and shift towards assembly-line murder, but it honestly sounds like she just did one of those big stupids where you talk without knowing what you're talking about, realise you're digging a hole and then just keep talking.
Last edited by Dumb Ideologies on Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Duvniask
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Founded: Aug 30, 2012
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Duvniask » Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:14 pm

Proctopeo wrote:
Duvniask wrote:We're at the stage where someone is implying we're racists or we're paternalistic because we recognize that being a mouthpiece for the very people who hurt the group you're a part of is bad.

Paternalism... I think that's precisely the word I was looking for to apply here.

"how dare a BLACK WOMAN believe things that I don't want her to! >:( "

Let's face it, you're just as guilty of thinking "certain demographics" shouldn't think in certain ways, unless you're some kind of weirdo with no moral sense who sees nothing wrong with being a Jewish Kapo.
Supporting anTIFA.

Economic Left/Right: -9.13
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Danish | Political science student | Left communist
The old world is dying, and the new world struggles to be born: now is the time of monsters.

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Proctopeo
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Anarchy

Postby Proctopeo » Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:27 pm

Duvniask wrote:
Proctopeo wrote:Paternalism... I think that's precisely the word I was looking for to apply here.

"how dare a BLACK WOMAN believe things that I don't want her to! >:( "

Let's face it, you're just as guilty of thinking "certain demographics" shouldn't think in certain ways, unless you're some kind of weirdo with no moral sense who sees nothing wrong with being a Jewish Kapo.

A "no you"? I thought that you would be better than that.

I also don't see how a black woman aligned with rather milquetoast conservatives compares to a concentration camp prisoner who's collaborating.
ec 4.38 soc -3.95
I don't like most tankies/red fascists
China Lied, People Died.
6500 Year-Old Soomer
RIP the LWDT and RWDT, may their legacy live on

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The East Marches II
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Founded: Mar 11, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby The East Marches II » Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:27 pm

Liriena wrote:
The East Marches II wrote:
You enabled them though Anon :^)

Not me. I voted for the Trots and I have the complimentary ice pick in my skull to prove it. :^)


Based and Posadist pilled

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Duvniask
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Founded: Aug 30, 2012
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Duvniask » Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:45 pm

Proctopeo wrote:
Duvniask wrote:Let's face it, you're just as guilty of thinking "certain demographics" shouldn't think in certain ways, unless you're some kind of weirdo with no moral sense who sees nothing wrong with being a Jewish Kapo.

A "no you"? I thought that you would be better than that.

I also don't see how a black woman aligned with rather milquetoast conservatives compares to a concentration camp prisoner who's collaborating.

Noting a basic fact about most people is not a "no you" so much as it is a recognition that you're also doing what I am doing because, and I cannot stress this enough, people generally do think in these ways. I'm not shifting blame away from myself so much as trying to get it into your head that this is not an abnormal (and also not a wrong) position to have. Your holier-than-thou attitude is misplaced, but most likely because you don't understand how this logic applies to other situations.

You may call them "milquetoast conservatives" because in your worldview, there's nothing extreme about suggesting Black people are whining babies who aren't actually oppressed and that they just want the big state teat to suck welfare from. She cares not for disproportionate police brutality against minorities or right wing violence (she's quick to shift blame to Antifa, everyone's favorite boogeyman). She thinks Blacks were better of under Jim Crow, at least economically speaking. The difference between her and Kapos is that she at least is better able to choose, and she still chooses to promote the politics that hurt minorities. I'm also not convinced she isn't just doing it to grift.


In any case, it is clear that at least in the situation of Kapos, you think a certain demographic group probably should think a certain way. Unless you're going to argue against that, I'm going to take it as confirmation that you do, in fact, agree and that you therefore need to modify your argument to account for it.
Last edited by Duvniask on Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Supporting anTIFA.

Economic Left/Right: -9.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.87
Danish | Political science student | Left communist
The old world is dying, and the new world struggles to be born: now is the time of monsters.

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Duvniask
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Founded: Aug 30, 2012
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Duvniask » Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:21 pm

Before I go to bed I'll end with a simple yes-no question.

Is there something reprehensible about a Jewish concentration camp prisoner who chooses to help supervise the forced labor of his fellow Jews in return for securing privileges for himself? In short, is there something reprehensible about being a Kapo?

If your answer to this question is yes, then you cannot commit yourself to that holier-than-thou attitude, Proctopeo, because I could just as easily get up in your face about how you're just angry that a certain demographic group dares to think differently from the way you want them to. You see how that logic takes a rather grotesque appearance here? It would be hypocrisy to suggest that this applies in one case, but not the other, because you're not critique something that is situation-specific, you're critiquing the general notion that I'm suggesting people shouldn't work against their own group interests (when said group is already suffering from oppression, destitution and other injustices). The issue isn't just that Candace Owens believes in something I disagree with, it's that she promotes views which are directly damaging to people who are just like her; she should know better and she should be better.
Last edited by Duvniask on Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Supporting anTIFA.

Economic Left/Right: -9.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.87
Danish | Political science student | Left communist
The old world is dying, and the new world struggles to be born: now is the time of monsters.

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Rojava Free State
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Posts: 18831
Founded: Feb 06, 2018
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Rojava Free State » Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:35 pm

Liriena wrote:
Proctopeo wrote:Ah, I assume she gives the types who think that certain demographics should only think a certain way absolute fits?

More like she's built her career on giving the "I have a black friend" seal of approval to TPUSA types.

Oh and Hitler apologia.


Candace Owens is proof that sometimes the solution is even worse than the problem. Black America doesn't need Republicanism, they need real leftism.
political compass:

Economic Left/Right: -0.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.38
pro: marijuana, gun rights, private property

anti: fascism, communism, islamism, sexism, pan africanism, La raza, Warren Police Department (and most of the other police departments of metro Detroit except for Auburn Hills. They're aight), gun control, trump, obama, bush, clinton, reagan, carter, chipotle and snotty in crowd teens. Ugh I can't deal with them
Hurdergaryp wrote:Humanity keeps seeing itself as the crown of creation, but to this world we're a crown of thorns at best.


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Rojava Free State
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Left-Leaning College State

Postby Rojava Free State » Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:36 pm

Duvniask wrote:Before I go to bed I'll end with a simple yes-no question.

Is there something reprehensible about a Jewish concentration camp prisoner who chooses to help supervise the forced labor of his fellow Jews in return for securing privileges for himself? In short, is there something reprehensible about being a Kapo?

If your answer to this question is yes, then you cannot commit yourself to that holier-than-thou attitude, Proctopeo, because I could just as easily get up in your face about how you're just angry that a certain demographic group dares to think differently from the way you want them to. You see how that logic takes a rather grotesque appearance here? It would be hypocrisy to suggest that this applies in one case, but not the other, because you're not critique something that is situation-specific, you're critiquing the general notion that I'm suggesting people shouldn't work against their own group interests (when said group is already suffering from oppression, destitution and other injustices). The issue isn't just that Candace Owens believes in something I disagree with, it's that she promotes views which are directly damaging to people who are just like her; she should know better and she should be better.


Candace Owens is standing up for fascists that would wanna boot black people out, and crony capitalists that say "some kids in Detroit are starving? Don't care, it doesn't affect me."
political compass:

Economic Left/Right: -0.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.38
pro: marijuana, gun rights, private property

anti: fascism, communism, islamism, sexism, pan africanism, La raza, Warren Police Department (and most of the other police departments of metro Detroit except for Auburn Hills. They're aight), gun control, trump, obama, bush, clinton, reagan, carter, chipotle and snotty in crowd teens. Ugh I can't deal with them
Hurdergaryp wrote:Humanity keeps seeing itself as the crown of creation, but to this world we're a crown of thorns at best.


Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/invites/conta ... ent=82zr2h

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Fahran
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Fahran » Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:24 pm

Duvniask wrote:Going for cheap scores, I see. It's not reductionist, but that's besides the point. You should recognize that the meaning of words don't depend on the whims of every jackass who uses them.

I'm aware. My point is that we shouldn't employ an uncharitable or blatantly wrong (for the context) defintion because it is the more "common" understanding. A poster appealed to Plato's Republic and the immediate response to mention of the word "aristocracy" was to equate it to medieval class systems when that clearly isn't what was intended. Not everybody who favors an aristocracy is about to go all-in on feudalism. The term has received quite a bit of use in various ideological and political circles.

I actually have no serious objections to you employing a more narrow or contextualized definition for socialism. My main objection is that the courtesy should be reciprocated when somebody uses a term in a particular context and we're all aware of the context in which it's being used. Aristocracy with reference the Plato and natural aristocracy should not automatically be associated with feudalism when that has no pertinence to the overall conversation.
there is a loneliness in this world so great
that you can see it in the slow movement of
the hands of a clock

- Charles Bukowski, The Crunch

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Fahran
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Fahran » Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:27 pm

Duvniask wrote:
Proctopeo wrote:Ah, I assume she gives the types who think that certain demographics should only think a certain way absolute fits?

In the sense that Uncle Toms are bad, to be sure.

I really hope you're African American or black because that's pretty problematic. If you're white, that's almost tantamount to a racial slur.
Last edited by Fahran on Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
there is a loneliness in this world so great
that you can see it in the slow movement of
the hands of a clock

- Charles Bukowski, The Crunch

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Fahran
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Founded: Nov 13, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Fahran » Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:29 pm

Cekoviu wrote:do you think we would be more ok with her beliefs if she was white

Probably not, no. That doesn't mean you get to call people "Uncle Toms", "self-hating Jews", or any other term with similar connotations and baggage while belonging to an out-group. Stay in your own lane. Those aren't your words to use in ideological discussions.

Duvniask wrote:Before I go to bed I'll end with a simple yes-no question.

Is there something reprehensible about a Jewish concentration camp prisoner who chooses to help supervise the forced labor of his fellow Jews in return for securing privileges for himself? In short, is there something reprehensible about being a Kapo?

The closer equivalent is a Christian or atheist calling an Anti-Zionist Jewish person a "self-hating Jew." You might have a point if we were talking about someone who literally argued that black people should be reenslaved and participated in making policies to that effect, but, yeah, what you're saying comes off as patronizing and slightly racist.
Last edited by Fahran on Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
there is a loneliness in this world so great
that you can see it in the slow movement of
the hands of a clock

- Charles Bukowski, The Crunch

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Duvniask
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Founded: Aug 30, 2012
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Duvniask » Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:12 am

Fahran wrote:
Duvniask wrote:In the sense that Uncle Toms are bad, to be sure.

I really hope you're African American or black because that's pretty problematic. If you're white, that's almost tantamount to a racial slur.

I'm not Black. She herself has said on her Facebook that she proudly identifies as an Uncle Tom.
Last edited by Duvniask on Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
Supporting anTIFA.

Economic Left/Right: -9.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.87
Danish | Political science student | Left communist
The old world is dying, and the new world struggles to be born: now is the time of monsters.

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Duvniask
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Founded: Aug 30, 2012
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Duvniask » Wed Apr 01, 2020 1:00 am

Fahran wrote:The closer equivalent is a Christian or atheist calling an Anti-Zionist Jewish person a "self-hating Jew." You might have a point if we were talking about someone who literally argued that black people should be reenslaved and participated in making policies to that effect, but, yeah, what you're saying comes off as patronizing and slightly racist.

I don't really care what you think about that, to be honest. You should not betray an oppressed group of people for your own gain, and being a part of the very group you're betraying makes it especially vile. The Jews in Israel of today are not oppressed, they are doing the oppressing; contrary to what you're implying there, the situation where you're "betraying" matters quite a lot.
Supporting anTIFA.

Economic Left/Right: -9.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.87
Danish | Political science student | Left communist
The old world is dying, and the new world struggles to be born: now is the time of monsters.

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