LWDT 8: Hitting the Marx

[Fahran]

Wait, you're an aristocracist? (I'm working on the name, aristocrat was taken by noblemen.)

I favor a natural and organic aristocracy. In short, I maintain that environmental and social conditions result in intrinsic inequalities between people and that social and economic elites are those best able to navigate these conditions. I believe that society should stem from a transcendant moral order that emanates through the values and traditions of a political community and that adherence to these values and traditions will produce an elite who are literate, prudent, virtuous, honorable, loyal, and cognizant of the community. I call myself a conservative usually.

You’re really scraping the barrel here. Arguing about who should be ‘allowed’ to talk about the use of certain words?

With all due respect, that has been a persistent and shameless practice in the LWDT since its inception as evidenced by the large number of left-communists and democratic socialists disavowing and condemning Marxist-Leninists and Maoists as "not real communism." My point is that you cannot claim universality in defining all ideologies. You want to have your cake and eat it too.

Someone’s political opinion does not determine what they can and can’t talk about. You can talk about socialism just fine. Just use a definition in common use rather than ‘anything that uses government money for things I don’t like’, because that is a bad definition.

Except the definition of socialism employed by most people here isn't the common definition. It's a more abstract one adopted by a particular group of theorists who were historically in the minority even within communist circles. Like I said, you don't get to define every ideology while using your own unique standards and not have people call you out on it.

"My ideology is garbage to the point that I need a new name because the past 2000 years of human history have utterly destroyed its core conceptions"

Sounds like socialism if we change that span to 150 years or so. :^)

You realise that whoever gets to define something isn't solely determined by whoever uses that word to describe themselves, right? People can use words in the wrong manner whether they identify with them or not.

Liberalism, for example, doesn't get redefined simply because the Liberal Democratic Party of Russia calls itself that.

So I should reject your reductionist definition of socialism and use of the term state capitalism?

[Fahran]

And yet there was a period of over a thousand years after democracy was invented where it was considered anarchistic and was not a mainstream view. Now it is. The idea that everything was monarchical until the U.S. made it cool to be a republic is just false. Most of Europe was once united under a republic, remember? That did not end well for them. Surely, you would say to me in 1600, nearly every republic has devolved in tyranny, so we must remain monarchical.

I'm not certain what point you're attempting to get at here. My entire assertion was that the United States wasn't really embracing novel institutions when it adopted a republican form of government. It had the institutional foundations, the political culture, and the efficacy to know the model would work if they simply removed the monarch and made a few minor tweaks to the political system. Old examples of this include the Roman Republic and Athenian democracy. More contemporary examples included the parliamentary and pre-parliamentary bodies that had cropped up centuries before in Europe, especially in England and Scotland.

[Liriena]

Liriena, I see why you like this guy, he's got balls.

https://i.redd.it/1k2g4dcma6n41.png

Bannon aims to lead a populist revolt of underprivileged people against the elites – he is taking Trump’s message of a government by and for the people more literally than Trump himself dares to do. That’s why Bannon is worth his weight in gold

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The first conclusion we are compelled to draw from this strange predicament is that class struggle is back as the main determining factor of our political life – a determining factor in the good old Marxist sense of “determination in the last instance”: even if the stakes appear to be totally different, from humanitarian crises to ecological threats, class struggle lurks in the background and casts its ominous shadow.
The second conclusion is that class struggle is less and less directly transposed into the struggle between political parties, and more and more a struggle which takes place within each big political party.

I don't agree with all his takes but there's a valuable nugget of thought in there. Bannon is a toxic shitstain with a garbage analysis of the world, but the particular sort of "alt-right" that he ostensibly tried to cultivate these past few years does share some grievances with the socialist left.

Still, even the most charitable interpretation of the "alt-right" from the left should not forget that the "alt-right" is pretty much doomed as an attempt at an empancipatory movement, because its foundations are built on the right. Their particular ideology is still an outgrowth of the dominant conservative ideology and, as such, it will never be able to be truly capable of liberating anyone from the status quo and push humanity in any meaningfully new direction. They cling to the same basic (and false) fantasies that the modern right in its entirety was built on.

If you want to see them as allies, they're ultimately no more reliable allies in the fight against capitalist oppression and exploitation than, say, the Catholic Church. Yes, they care about the neglected underclasses but not for the same reasons as us, their exit strategy from our material conditions relies on different means and ends, and they will kill you off if your very identity is not compliant with their dogma.

[Liriena]

Candace Owens having a week-long normal one, desperately trying to make a "factual" and "logical" argument for sacrificing boomers to The Line, even after Trump gave up on it.

The free market death cult, folks. The Aztecs didn't die off. They just got better marketing.

[Ostroeuropa]

Liriena, I see why you like this guy, he's got balls.

https://i.redd.it/1k2g4dcma6n41.png



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I don't agree with all his takes but there's a valuable nugget of thought in there. Bannon is a toxic shitstain with a garbage analysis of the world, but the particular sort of "alt-right" that he ostensibly tried to cultivate these past few years does share some grievances with the socialist left.

Still, even the most charitable interpretation of the "alt-right" from the left should not forget that the "alt-right" is pretty much doomed as an attempt at an empancipatory movement, because its foundations are built on the right. Their particular ideology is still an outgrowth of the dominant conservative ideology and, as such, it will never be able to be truly capable of liberating anyone from the status quo and push humanity in any meaningfully new direction. They cling to the same basic (and false) fantasies that the modern right in its entirety was built on.

If you want to see them as allies, they're ultimately no more reliable allies in the fight against capitalist oppression and exploitation than, say, the Catholic Church. Yes, they care about the neglected underclasses but not for the same reasons as us, their exit strategy from our material conditions relies on different means and ends, and they will kill you off if your very identity is not compliant with their dogma.

How is that meaningfully different from the usual capitalist right wing?

[Liriena]

I don't agree with all his takes but there's a valuable nugget of thought in there. Bannon is a toxic shitstain with a garbage analysis of the world, but the particular sort of "alt-right" that he ostensibly tried to cultivate these past few years does share some grievances with the socialist left.

Still, even the most charitable interpretation of the "alt-right" from the left should not forget that the "alt-right" is pretty much doomed as an attempt at an empancipatory movement, because its foundations are built on the right. Their particular ideology is still an outgrowth of the dominant conservative ideology and, as such, it will never be able to be truly capable of liberating anyone from the status quo and push humanity in any meaningfully new direction. They cling to the same basic (and false) fantasies that the modern right in its entirety was built on.

If you want to see them as allies, they're ultimately no more reliable allies in the fight against capitalist oppression and exploitation than, say, the Catholic Church. Yes, they care about the neglected underclasses but not for the same reasons as us, their exit strategy from our material conditions relies on different means and ends, and they will kill you off if your very identity is not compliant with their dogma.

How is that meaningfully different from the usual capitalist right wing?

What do you mean by "that"? The "alt-right"?

[Rojava Free State]

Candace Owens having a week-long normal one, desperately trying to make a "factual" and "logical" argument for sacrificing boomers to The Line, even after Trump gave up on it.

The free market death cult, folks. The Aztecs didn't die off. They just got better marketing.

Imagine wanting to die for the economy. We used to die fighting for ideas but now people wanna die so businesses can make money.

[Rojava Free State]

How is that meaningfully different from the usual capitalist right wing?

What do you mean by "that"? The "alt-right"?

The alt right is very pro protectionism, something a die hard capitalist would hate to even think about considering how pro free trade they are. The alt right also is against mass immigration, which capitalists also rely on since immigrants will often work for less, and illegal immigrants will work for next to nothing (not because they want to, but because they cant fight back due to them basically being ghosts in the system). The alt right is anti capitalist. It doesn't mean they're good guys, because we all know you can share some ideas with people who are otherwise repugnant, but they are a very different breed from the pro big business right. Mitt Romney they are not.

[Liriena]

Candace Owens having a week-long normal one, desperately trying to make a "factual" and "logical" argument for sacrificing boomers to The Line, even after Trump gave up on it.

The free market death cult, folks. The Aztecs didn't die off. They just got better marketing.

Imagine wanting to die for the economy. We used to die fighting for ideas but now people wanna die so businesses can make money.

A bunch of middle class people here tried to hold a "protest" from their balconies last night because... and I can't stress this enough... our president suggested that big corporations would have to tolerate taking in fewer profits during this quarantine and shouldn't just lay off people by the hundreds.

[Ostroeuropa]

How is that meaningfully different from the usual capitalist right wing?

What do you mean by "that"? The "alt-right"?

Yeah, pretty much.

[Rojava Free State]

Imagine wanting to die for the economy. We used to die fighting for ideas but now people wanna die so businesses can make money.

A bunch of middle class people here tried to hold a "protest" from their balconies last night because... and I can't stress this enough... our president suggested that big corporations would have to tolerate taking in fewer profits during this quarantine and shouldn't just lay off people by the hundreds.

Why the hell would anyone protest corporations not being able to fire people.

[North German Realm]

A bunch of middle class people here tried to hold a "protest" from their balconies last night because... and I can't stress this enough... our president suggested that big corporations would have to tolerate taking in fewer profits during this quarantine and shouldn't just lay off people by the hundreds.

Why the hell would anyone protest corporations not being able to fire people.

People have been doing it (in various forms of anti-union activism) for the many centuries. You're just seeing how absurd it is now that we're getting the extreme position of "literal death vs. muh profits" which, while was pretty much the stakes all along, wasn't this clear until a global pandemic reared its head.

[The East Marches II]

Candace Owens having a week-long normal one, desperately trying to make a "factual" and "logical" argument for sacrificing boomers to The Line, even after Trump gave up on it.

The free market death cult, folks. The Aztecs didn't die off. They just got better marketing.

Best news I've heard all week

You can no longer criticize the free marketeers or you are a bigot. Brown people don't have agency and the indigenous are the most persecuted of all :^)

Edit: I have been informed reality beat me to it.

If you oppose debt collection you hate WoC :^)))))

Don't call it a grave, it's the future you chose.

[Liriena]

What do you mean by "that"? The "alt-right"?

Yeah, pretty much.

Now that I think about it? It isn't. At least not beyond a stronger emphasis on performative populism. In practice, "alt-right" figures haven't proposed anything too far removed from American neoconservatism and the right-wing authoritarianisms of the past. This supposedly "alternative" right-wing movement somehow manages to use the exact same old clichés and "subtleties" as their "traditional" rivals (hatemongering against "degeneracy" and "cultural marxism", unironic support for 20th century Latin American dictators, etc.).

Honestly, I think Zizek gives Bannon a bit too much credit as anything more than an incoherent but effective demagogue. In a sense, he reminds me of Macri's lifelong campaign manager, Jaime Durán Barba. A guy whose actual ideology seemed to be a garbled mess made largely of ignorance and ambition, compared to the more clearly defined ideology and movement he was capable of building and shaping in his customers' favour.

[Baltenstein]

Imagine wanting to die for the economy. We used to die fighting for ideas but now people wanna die so businesses can make money.

A bunch of middle class people here tried to hold a "protest" from their balconies last night because... and I can't stress this enough... our president suggested that big corporations would have to tolerate taking in fewer profits during this quarantine and shouldn't just lay off people by the hundreds.

Hopefully there were counter-protests on other balconies.

[Liriena]

Candace Owens having a week-long normal one, desperately trying to make a "factual" and "logical" argument for sacrificing boomers to The Line, even after Trump gave up on it.

The free market death cult, folks. The Aztecs didn't die off. They just got better marketing.

Best news I've heard all week

You can no longer criticize the free marketeers or you are a bigot. Brown people don't have agency and the indigenous are the most persecuted of all :^)

Edit: I have been informed reality beat me to it.

If you oppose debt collection you hate WoC :^)))))

Don't call it a grave, it's the future you chose.

"Debt collection industry"

And they say landlords are parasites.

[Liriena]

A bunch of middle class people here tried to hold a "protest" from their balconies last night because... and I can't stress this enough... our president suggested that big corporations would have to tolerate taking in fewer profits during this quarantine and shouldn't just lay off people by the hundreds.

Hopefully there were counter-protests on other balconies.

Didn't see any but, then again, I live in an overwhelmingly right-wing area where almost two thirds of the people voted for our failson of a former president's cousin.

[Duvniask]

You realise that whoever gets to define something isn't solely determined by whoever uses that word to describe themselves, right? People can use words in the wrong manner whether they identify with them or not.

Liberalism, for example, doesn't get redefined simply because the Liberal Democratic Party of Russia calls itself that.

So I should reject your reductionist definition of socialism and use of the term state capitalism?

Going for cheap scores, I see. It's not reductionist, but that's besides the point. You should recognize that the meaning of words don't depend on the whims of every jackass who uses them.

When I argue for socialism having a certain definition I don't base it on the idea that people who call themselves socialists understand it best (although it is often right-wingers who know nothing about it). I always stress the more precise definition, because it sufficiently distinguishes it from other concepts. I do it with the woes of the field of comparative politics in the back of my mind: unless you're clear about what you mean, you're basically shooting yourself in the foot because your points of comparison are not accurate or distinguishable enough. Being misleading, or downright wrong about the differences between two things defeats the very purpose of comparison, after all. The thing about the use of a term like "state capitalism" is that it correctly captures how nationalization of industry is nothing more than the state taking over the reigns of capital accumulation. Calling it "state socialism" obscures that, because it's not actually a different economic system at its very heart. It also had nothing to do with anything "socialist" as it was actually conceptualized by the people such states claimed to base themselves on.

I use such definitions because I have respect for theory, for the conceptual framework, and because not doing so is misleading.

[Proctopeo]

Discussing the alt-right is complicated, for a number of reasons. However, some people like to portray the movement as one big homogeneous blob of pure evil, which is probably the worst possible way to go about it.

Candace Owens having a week-long normal one, desperately trying to make a "factual" and "logical" argument for sacrificing boomers to The Line, even after Trump gave up on it.

The free market death cult, folks. The Aztecs didn't die off. They just got better marketing.

Who the hell is Candace Owens?

[The Cosmic Mainframe]

Who the hell is Candace Owens?

The conservative pundit community's token black woman.

[Proctopeo]

Who the hell is Candace Owens?

The conservative pundit community's token black woman.

Ah, I assume she gives the types who think that certain demographics should only think a certain way absolute fits?

[Duvniask]

The conservative pundit community's token black woman.

Ah, I assume she gives the types who think that certain demographics should only think a certain way absolute fits?

In the sense that Uncle Toms are bad, to be sure.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

Candace Owens having a week-long normal one, desperately trying to make a "factual" and "logical" argument for sacrificing boomers to The Line, even after Trump gave up on it.

The free market death cult, folks. The Aztecs didn't die off. They just got better marketing.

Best news I've heard all week

You can no longer criticize the free marketeers or you are a bigot. Brown people don't have agency and the indigenous are the most persecuted of all :^)

Edit: I have been informed reality beat me to it.

If you oppose debt collection you hate WoC :^)))))

Don't call it a grave, it's the future you chose.

I’m sure some of that made sense to you, which is what should give you some solace.

[Liriena]

The conservative pundit community's token black woman.

Ah, I assume she gives the types who think that certain demographics should only think a certain way absolute fits?

More like she's built her career on giving the "I have a black friend" seal of approval to TPUSA types.

Oh and Hitler apologia.

[Proctopeo]

Ah, I assume she gives the types who think that certain demographics should only think a certain way absolute fits?

In the sense that Uncle Toms are bad, to be sure.

When I posted that, I didn't expect someone who thought that to actually show up.

Ah, I assume she gives the types who think that certain demographics should only think a certain way absolute fits?

More like she's built her career on giving the "I have a black friend" seal of approval to TPUSA types.

Oh and Hitler apologia.