LWDT 8: Hitting the Marx

[Valrifell]

why atlas shrugged tho

It's notoriously dense and self-indulgent

I have a coworker who will occasionally praise Atlas Shrugged and Ayn Rand's prose more broadly.

I strongly dislike them.

[Cekoviu]

It's notoriously dense and self-indulgent

I have a coworker who will occasionally praise Atlas Shrugged and Ayn Rand's prose more broadly.

I strongly dislike them.

Relevant xkcd

[Xeng He]

What do the leftists on here think of Frederick Winslow Taylor? In particular, I'm wondering what they think someone like him should be paid. Also the implications this has for management pay.

[Cekoviu]

What do the leftists on here think of Frederick Winslow Taylor? In particular, I'm wondering what they think someone like him should be paid. Also the implications this has for management pay.

One of the greatest journalists of the 21st century, and a talented artist to boot. He's truly an admirable man.

[Xeng He]

What do the leftists on here think of Frederick Winslow Taylor? In particular, I'm wondering what they think someone like him should be paid. Also the implications this has for management pay.

One of the greatest journalists of the 21st century, and a talented artist to boot. He's truly an admirable man.

I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not.

Anyway, the general concept here is not a bad explanation of what managers (at lower levels) do, and why higher pay for them is deserved, I think. Figuring out inefficiencies in the process and teaching people to be more efficient can produce more overall value than some other forms of labor. Not sure if that would apply to engineering, programming, etc. as much though.

[Cekoviu]

One of the greatest journalists of the 21st century, and a talented artist to boot. He's truly an admirable man.

I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not.

It's a joke, yes.

[Dumb Ideologies]

It's notoriously dense and self-indulgent

I have a coworker who will occasionally praise Atlas Shrugged and Ayn Rand's prose more broadly.

I strongly dislike them.

Mentioning Atlas Shrugged causes demonstrable harm and therefore violates the NAP. You are entitled to respond either with a McNuke or by asserting a 25% child bride discount on their firstborn.

[Albrenia]

Ah, good old Ayn Rand. Even she couldn't practise the rubbish she preached in the end.

[Dumb Ideologies]

Ah, good old Ayn Rand. Even she couldn't practise the rubbish she preached in the end.

Depends. From a purely selfish point of view using a system you disagree with and thus benefitting from "wrong" isn't all that inconsistent. Greed is the only virtue to these people after all.

[Albrenia]

Ah, good old Ayn Rand. Even she couldn't practise the rubbish she preached in the end.

Depends. From a purely selfish point of view using a system you disagree with and thus benefitting from "wrong" isn't all that inconsistent. Greed is the only virtue to these people after all.

Hmm. I guess one could spin it that way. But would John Gulch (or however it is spelled) stoop to such a level?

[Ostroeuropa]

Liriena, I see why you like this guy, he's got balls.

https://i.redd.it/1k2g4dcma6n41.png

Bannon aims to lead a populist revolt of underprivileged people against the elites – he is taking Trump’s message of a government by and for the people more literally than Trump himself dares to do. That’s why Bannon is worth his weight in gold

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The first conclusion we are compelled to draw from this strange predicament is that class struggle is back as the main determining factor of our political life – a determining factor in the good old Marxist sense of “determination in the last instance”: even if the stakes appear to be totally different, from humanitarian crises to ecological threats, class struggle lurks in the background and casts its ominous shadow.
The second conclusion is that class struggle is less and less directly transposed into the struggle between political parties, and more and more a struggle which takes place within each big political party.

[Mirial Magna]

Liriena, I see why you like this guy, he's got balls.

https://i.redd.it/1k2g4dcma6n41.png

Bannon aims to lead a populist revolt of underprivileged people against the elites – he is taking Trump’s message of a government by and for the people more literally than Trump himself dares to do. That’s why Bannon is worth his weight in gold

+

The first conclusion we are compelled to draw from this strange predicament is that class struggle is back as the main determining factor of our political life – a determining factor in the good old Marxist sense of “determination in the last instance”: even if the stakes appear to be totally different, from humanitarian crises to ecological threats, class struggle lurks in the background and casts its ominous shadow.
The second conclusion is that class struggle is less and less directly transposed into the struggle between political parties, and more and more a struggle which takes place within each big political party.

I'd say that class struggle is taking place within the two main parties, as opposed to one being pro-worker and the other being pro-capitalist.
Really, all Bernie would have to do in order to unite pro-worker political views is support gun rights and oppose abortion.

[Cisairse]

Liriena, I see why you like this guy, he's got balls.

https://i.redd.it/1k2g4dcma6n41.png



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I'd say that class struggle is taking place within the two main parties, as opposed to one being pro-worker and the other being pro-capitalist.
Really, all Bernie would have to do in order to unite pro-worker political views is support gun rights and oppose abortion.

workers are anti-abortion

you heard it here folks

[Mirial Magna]

I'd say that class struggle is taking place within the two main parties, as opposed to one being pro-worker and the other being pro-capitalist.
Really, all Bernie would have to do in order to unite pro-worker political views is support gun rights and oppose abortion.

workers are anti-abortion

you heard it here folks

Yes, they to tend to be fairly conservative in the US.

[Rojava Free State]

I'd say that class struggle is taking place within the two main parties, as opposed to one being pro-worker and the other being pro-capitalist.
Really, all Bernie would have to do in order to unite pro-worker political views is support gun rights and oppose abortion.

workers are anti-abortion

you heard it here folks

I mean some are. And some are not.

Honestly the workers should debate this later and focus on the most important thing, which is worker's rights

[Imperium Romanum Sanctis]

Liriena, I see why you like this guy, he's got balls.

https://i.redd.it/1k2g4dcma6n41.png



+

I'd say that class struggle is taking place within the two main parties, as opposed to one being pro-worker and the other being pro-capitalist.
Really, all Bernie would have to do in order to unite pro-worker political views is support gun rights and oppose abortion.

That, and stop calling himself a Socialist.

At the end of the day, a lot of it comes down to marketing.

[Cisairse]

workers are anti-abortion

you heard it here folks

Yes, they to tend to be fairly conservative in the US.

Only the men.

[Rojava Free State]

Yes, they to tend to be fairly conservative in the US.

Only the men.

Not really. There are alot of conservative women out there. Unless you live in a universe where Nikki Halley doesn't exist. And hey, if you do, I might illegally immigrate there.

[Mirial Magna]

Yes, they to tend to be fairly conservative in the US.

Only the men.

Not just the men, but the women, and the children too.

Those men tend to share the values of the people around them.

[Ostroeuropa]

I'd say that class struggle is taking place within the two main parties, as opposed to one being pro-worker and the other being pro-capitalist.
Really, all Bernie would have to do in order to unite pro-worker political views is support gun rights and oppose abortion.

workers are anti-abortion

you heard it here folks

In the US, the overwhelming majority of the public support some restrictions on abortion, and are actually scattered pretty evenly across a spectrum of views.

(Remove all restrictions abortion on demand - Remove some of the restrictions and increase access - keep things as they are - impose some more restrictions but keep it legal in some circumstances - ban abortion).

Taking any firm stand on abortion is going to piss off more people than it wins to your side, especially if you adopt one of the extreme views. The largest majority could be built around "Keep things as they are" if you can get the moderate-change positions to compromise around it in order to end the danger of either of the extremes. This becomes difficult with the histrionic rhetoric of those extremes where "They want to legalize all abortion" and "They hate women and want to ban abortion" slippery slope style arguments are used to put a wedge through what is a pretty clear majority (Around 70 of the public) clustered around "No change" or "Minimal change".

There is no particular platform on abortion that can be used to unite the working classes because it's an issue of culture and kulturkampf. That may be the point Zizek is making. Support the alt-right and people like bannon in taking over the republican party to be a worker focused more left wing economics party hostile to capitalists, while understanding that we will never agree on culture war issues, and that this is a desirable dynamic for democracy to transition to. (Two left wing economics parties built around culture war disagreements). Arguably, empowering the working classes means empowering even the conservative members of it.

[Xeng He]

Yes, they to tend to be fairly conservative in the US.

Only the men.

That's a common misconception

[Ostroeuropa]

Yes, they to tend to be fairly conservative in the US.

Only the men.

More women are anti-abortion than men in the US. Misandrist media likes to tell lies about that dynamic because they enjoy demonizing men, and a culture influenced by feminism has trained the populace into assuming men are to blame for womens issues and oppressing them, even when evidence says the opposite. (But, supposedly, this consistent knee-jerk reaction people have when presented with a womens issue to assume men are behind it has nothing to do with feminists and their activism. It's just a spooky coincidence. #FeministsDon'tUnderstandFeminism ).

[Novus America]

I'd say that class struggle is taking place within the two main parties, as opposed to one being pro-worker and the other being pro-capitalist.
Really, all Bernie would have to do in order to unite pro-worker political views is support gun rights and oppose abortion.

That, and stop calling himself a Socialist.

At the end of the day, a lot of it comes down to marketing.

Especially when he says stupid shit like Denmark is socialist. Welfare capitalism is not socialism.
Not sure when Sanders seems either too stubborn or ignorant to acknowledge that.

[Cisairse]

Only the men.

Not really. There are alot of conservative women out there. Unless you live in a universe where Nikki Halley doesn't exist. And hey, if you do, I might illegally immigrate there.

I do not live in the universe where Nikki Haley is a blue-collar worker, no.

[Rojava Free State]

Not really. There are alot of conservative women out there. Unless you live in a universe where Nikki Halley doesn't exist. And hey, if you do, I might illegally immigrate there.

I do not live in the universe where Nikki Haley is a blue-collar worker, no.

Many of her supporters are the wives of those conservatives you see everywhere.

I hate to break the news to you, but theres alot of conservative women in America. It sucks, but that's the way it is.